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Thread: All About Chloroform#2

  1. #801
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lanie View Post
    LOL. Maybe you should start a new thread.
    I know more details of chloroform being in the trunk than you do cleaning solvents. There is no evidence whatsoever cleaning solvents were used in the trunk. The only evidence you have to point to cleaning solvents being used in the trunk is the chloroform itself. My leap to assumption is no higher or longer than yours.
    But back to your shovel theory. What evidence do you have to support your assertion someone can be killed with a shovel without leaving any trace on the bones. What evidence do you have this particular shovel was used? We do have forensics on that shovel, and they do not point to any organic matter from a human other than one hair, which did not match Caylee, being found on the shovel, and they also do not point to the shovel having been cleaned. What evidence do you have to support someone can be killed with a shovel without leaving any trace on the shovel?
    Lanie
    I don't have to know anything?

    neither do the defence. Just propose it as an explanation.

    There is evidence in testimony from C & G that they "cleaned out" the trunk. Who knows they might cop to the bleach?

    I have proposed possibilities for Chloroform in trunk, so have others.

    There is no evidence at all that KC ever had possession of chloroform in any form. No evidence that Caylee ever came in contact with it.

    There is evidence that KC had a Great Big Stanley Shovel clutched in her hands as she headed to where it is reasonable to assume Caylee was.
    QED I rest my case!
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    well i have been beaten. and it does leave damage. so you cant beat someone to death with a shovel and not break bones, especially in the head. so if there is no sign of trauma or cause of death on the skeleton, i doubt that happened. plus, to be honest, beating a little child with a shovel would be overkill. you wouldnt need to borrow a neighbros shovel to do it. i was beat with a lamp, for example. becuase it was next to the bed and handy.
    Lashelle


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    Quote Originally Posted by Carla Lashelle View Post
    well i have been beaten. and it does leave damage. so you cant beat someone to death with a shovel and not break bones, especially in the head. so if there is no sign of trauma or cause of death on the skeleton, i doubt that happened. plus, to be honest, beating a little child with a shovel would be overkill. you wouldnt need to borrow a neighbros shovel to do it. i was beat with a lamp, for example. becuase it was next to the bed and handy.
    Good points

    Equally it would be silly to imagine killing a child with a hard to obtain toxic chemical.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Indigo View Post
    I was referring to the evidence of chloroform found in both Rickenbach's anaylsis and in Vass' analysis. IMO, this evidence is supported by Casey's searches not only for "how + to+ make + chloroform," but the individual ingredients for the "recipe/s": "acetone," "alcohol," etc.

    IIRC, Vass did find acetone in his analysis. Conclusion unclear. IMO.
    I don't remember acetone being found, but if it was, it just makes it more likely this was a homemade batch. Chloroform does not break down into a molecule of acetone stuck to a molecule of chlorine, where each can be individually identified. Any acetone found with chloroform would be what was left over that didn't react with the chlorine. Chloroform is denser than water or acetone, and goes to the bottom of the container it is mixed in. It would be possible to scoop out what is floating on top with some kind of ladle. I don't think you would be able to get every single molecule of acetone out without some professional equipment, and maybe not even then, but you could still get most of it. I don't know what kind of reaction would take place if acetone was ingested, so if Caylee was made to drink chloroform with acetone still in it, it might possible break down into something else.
    IMO, some of the chloroform found was introduced into the trunk as chloroform, not as a reaction because of human decomp or cleaning materials. Way too much evidence to buy coincidence.
    Lanie

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carla Lashelle View Post
    well i have been beaten. and it does leave damage. so you cant beat someone to death with a shovel and not break bones, especially in the head. so if there is no sign of trauma or cause of death on the skeleton, i doubt that happened. plus, to be honest, beating a little child with a shovel would be overkill. you wouldnt need to borrow a neighbros shovel to do it. i was beat with a lamp, for example. becuase it was next to the bed and handy.
    Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry for what you had to go through!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lanie View Post
    I don't remember acetone being found, but if it was, it just makes it more likely this was a homemade batch. Chloroform does not break down into a molecule of acetone stuck to a molecule of chlorine, where each can be individually identified. Any acetone found with chloroform would be what was left over that didn't react with the chlorine. Chloroform is denser than water or acetone, and goes to the bottom of the container it is mixed in. It would be possible to scoop out what is floating on top with some kind of ladle. I don't think you would be able to get every single molecule of acetone out without some professional equipment, and maybe not even then, but you could still get most of it. I don't know what kind of reaction would take place if acetone was ingested, so if Caylee was made to drink chloroform with acetone still in it, it might possible break down into something else.
    IMO, some of the chloroform found was introduced into the trunk as chloroform, not as a reaction because of human decomp or cleaning materials. Way too much evidence to buy coincidence.
    Lanie
    I guess we have to wait and see what comes out at trial.. there is lots we don't know I'm sure!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hercule Poirot View Post
    I don't have to know anything?

    neither do the defence. Just propose it as an explanation.

    There is evidence in testimony from C & G that they "cleaned out" the trunk. Who knows they might cop to the bleach?

    I have proposed possibilities for Chloroform in trunk, so have others.

    There is no evidence at all that KC ever had possession of chloroform in any form. No evidence that Caylee ever came in contact with it.

    There is evidence that KC had a Great Big Stanley Shovel clutched in her hands as she headed to where it is reasonable to assume Caylee was.
    QED I rest my case!
    Alright, you stick to your shovel theory, and I'll stick to my chloroform theory, and we'll see what comes out at trial.
    Lanie

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    Quote Originally Posted by OneLostGrl View Post
    I guess we have to wait and see what comes out at trial.. there is lots we don't know I'm sure!
    LOL, you were reading my mind.
    Lanie

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lanie View Post
    Alright, you stick to your shovel theory, and I'll stick to my chloroform theory, and we'll see what comes out at trial.
    Lanie
    I am NOT going to stick to my shovel theory because it is daft.

    It is though much much better supported by real evidence than any chloroform theory.

    It's your call
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hercule Poirot View Post
    I am NOT going to stick to my shovel theory because it is daft.

    It is though much much better supported by real evidence than any chloroform theory.

    It's your call
    Bolded by me.
    Well, I didn't want to call a spade a spade (ha ha ha) but you said it.

    I disagree with your second statement. Going by the reports, documents, and search warrants, I also believe The Body Farm, FBI labs, and LE have my back.
    We shall see.
    Lanie

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lanie View Post
    Bolded by me.
    Well, I didn't want to call a spade a spade (ha ha ha) but you said it.

    I disagree with your second statement. Going by the reports, documents, and search warrants, I also believe The Body Farm, FBI labs, and LE have my back.
    We shall see.
    Lanie
    I still don't know what you think LE has your back on exactly.

    KC did not make Chloroform.

    Almost nobody does.

    A few pin head computer nerds perhaps, then they have no use for it anyway.

    This case has not turned up any chloroform other than "Raised level" that is likely ppm.

    No bottles with residue, nobody amoungst all the wittnesses ever even saw any?

    So far there is none.

    But there is a SHOVEL!!!

    Ps A spade is a quite dfferent tool to a shovel.
    Do not go gentle into that good night.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lanie View Post
    Alright, you stick to your shovel theory, and I'll stick to my chloroform theory, and we'll see what comes out at trial.
    Lanie
    NO, I can't wait that long!!!
    Say what you mean, mean what you say, but don't say it mean.
    We are all just trying to make sense of an unimaginable crime.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hercule Poirot View Post
    I still don't know what you think LE has your back on exactly.

    KC did not make Chloroform.

    Almost nobody does.

    A few pin head computer nerds perhaps, then they have no use for it anyway.

    This case has not turned up any chloroform other than "Raised level" that is likely ppm.

    No bottles with residue, nobody amoungst all the wittnesses ever even saw any?

    So far there is none.

    But there is a SHOVEL!!!

    Ps A spade is a quite dfferent tool to a shovel.
    You're getting sleepy...very sleepy...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Indigo View Post
    You're getting sleepy...very sleepy...
    I take it you are proposing Hypnotism?

    I think KC googled hypnotism? Anyway I am sure she could have on another computer as was mentioned back in the thread.

    I think the hypnotism theory has more merits than chloroform.
    Do not go gentle into that good night.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hercule Poirot View Post
    There is evidence in testimony from C & G that they "cleaned out" the trunk. Who knows they might cop to the bleach?

    I have proposed possibilities for Chloroform in trunk, so have others.

    There is no evidence at all that KC ever had possession of chloroform in any form. No evidence that Caylee ever came in contact with it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hercule Poirot View Post
    KC did not make Chloroform.

    Almost nobody does.

    A few pin head computer nerds perhaps, then they have no use for it anyway.

    This case has not turned up any chloroform other than "Raised level" that is likely ppm.

    No bottles with residue, nobody amoungst all the wittnesses ever even saw any?

    So far there is none.
    (respectfully snipped) Exactly. Chloroform, or mixing of it's components, would have been far too dangerous for KC herself to be handling (why risk inhaling vapors or getting this lethal substance onto her skin, that would be "daft" lol, is that an accent I hear HP?). Neither can I quite envision KC practicing organic chemistry experiments. Agree 100% w OneLostGrl it would've been far easier--w infinitely less risk to one's self--to simply administer OTC (or even street) drugs. After clearly identifying odor from trunk ("It smells like there's been a dead body in the d*mn car!"), "CA later rescinded her comment, saying the smell was an old pizza and some cleaning fluid." JMO

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    Exclamation

    Quote Originally Posted by kiki the parrot View Post
    (respectfully snipped) Exactly. Chloroform, or mixing of it's components, would have been far too dangerous for KC herself to be handling (why risk inhaling vapors or getting this lethal substance onto her skin, that would be "daft" lol, is that an accent I hear HP?). Neither can I quite envision KC practicing organic chemistry experiments. Agree w OneLostGrl it would've been far easier--w infinitely less risk to one's self--to simply administer OTC (or even street) drugs. After clearly identifying odor from trunk ("It smells like there's been a dead body in the d*mn car!"), "CA later rescinded her comment, saying the smell was an old pizza and some cleaning fluid." JMO
    Hi kiki. I remember that comment made by Cindy, but can't remember when she said it. Was it before or after the leaks came out about the computer searches for chloroform?

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    well all of the theories have some merit. some more than others.

    Since traces of chloroform were found in the car, and Casey searched it on her computer... there is a possibility of its involvement. Aparently it is not hard to BUY it. One of the local news reporters bought a bottle online in 10 minutes by clicking a box on a web page saying it was for "educational" purposes.

    Since Casey borrowed a shovel, it is some sort of clue. But since a shovel is more of a digging tool than a murder weapon in most cases, maybe she borrowed the shovel to BURY the body. Someone did a little digging in the back yard. I doubt the shovel is the murder weapon as it would be overkill and no evidence of trauma was found on the skull/body. If any solid weapon was used, you could argue for a knife (slit throat) as one was found in the bag. Stabbings tend to leave marks on bones, though.

    Acetone is finger nail polish remover. It is in a lot of houses. It is also poison. So if you drank Acetone, that wouldn't be good. If it is anything like laquer thinner you wouldn't voluntarily drink it either. I got a mouthful of thinner from a plastic bottle that looked like my water bottle once... I didn't swallow it, it burned, and I instantly spit it out. You would not swallow it unless you were forced. I don't know if Acetone is in Chloroform or not, but you don't eat/drink it as far as I know. Or there would be no need to. I don't know if it works if you ingest it orally. Sort of like snake venom... snake bites you and its bad news... you drink it nothing happens. Is that the same with Chloroform if you breathe it versus eat it?
    Lashelle


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    Quote Originally Posted by Carla Lashelle View Post
    well all of the theories have some merit. some more than others.

    Since traces of chloroform were found in the car, and Casey searched it on her computer... there is a possibility of its involvement. Aparently it is not hard to BUY it. One of the local news reporters bought a bottle online in 10 minutes by clicking a box on a web page saying it was for "educational" purposes.

    Since Casey borrowed a shovel, it is some sort of clue. But since a shovel is more of a digging tool than a murder weapon in most cases, maybe she borrowed the shovel to BURY the body. Someone did a little digging in the back yard. I doubt the shovel is the murder weapon as it would be overkill and no evidence of trauma was found on the skull/body. If any solid weapon was used, you could argue for a knife (slit throat) as one was found in the bag. Stabbings tend to leave marks on bones, though.

    Acetone is finger nail polish remover. It is in a lot of houses. It is also poison. So if you drank Acetone, that wouldn't be good. If it is anything like laquer thinner you wouldn't voluntarily drink it either. I got a mouthful of thinner from a plastic bottle that looked like my water bottle once... I didn't swallow it, it burned, and I instantly spit it out. You would not swallow it unless you were forced. I don't know if Acetone is in Chloroform or not, but you don't eat/drink it as far as I know. Or there would be no need to. I don't know if it works if you ingest it orally. Sort of like snake venom... snake bites you and its bad news... you drink it nothing happens. Is that the same with Chloroform if you breathe it versus eat it?
    Bolded by me.

    KC looked up specifically use of shovel as a weapon.

    KC did not look up a particular use for chloroform as I recall. Maybe she wanted some to clean her shovel?
    Do not go gentle into that good night.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Indigo View Post
    Hi kiki. I remember that comment made by Cindy, but can't remember when she said it. Was it before or after the leaks came out about the computer searches for chloroform?

    Yes too much to remember! So I researched it and the statement by CA was made months prior to October 22, when it was revealed websearches for chloroform, among others had been made. Btw out of my own curiosity I went back farther to check when news of labwork was released and even those results, indicating chloroform in trunk, had not yet been released when CA made "cleaning fluid" comment. Article below in August backdates quote by CA as having been made sometime previous to that, chloroform 'bombshell' announcement re lab results not released until Sept. 4. JMO


    http://www.wftv.com/news/17781526/detail.html

    http://www.wesh.com/news/17353349/detail.html

    http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/09/03/...irl/index.html

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    Were KC's web searches indicators of premeditation?

    I posted the following on the Computer Forensic's thread almost two months ago, but thought it would be worth bringing over here as food for thought.

    Many have ascribed a great deal of significance to KC's mid-March computer searches that seemed to scream premeditation. I think there is a more practical explanation.

    First, let me start by saying I think LE and the prosecution got lucky when they found a search for chloroform on the computer and they found elevated levels of chloroform in the trunk. I think they used this coincidence to apply pressure to the defense and, more importantly, the parents. It may not have worked, but it was a good strategy.

    It is important to look closely at what the prosecution did and did not release in the document dump in late November. What they did release were the clicks on websites with "google" in the name during mid-March. This gave us search terms and syndicated click-throughs. What it did not give us were the non-syndicated clicks that KC visited after searching. Those are the websites that are not paying $$$ for a high Google search result. That information, however, is in the data the prosecution retrieved from the hard drive and, I believe, the defense retrieved as well. The clicks KC made after searching should be quite informative.

    Before I get into the details then, it is my opinion that the searches are not useful in making the prosecution's case, which may explain why of all the "Dream Team" members, the computer forensics expert is essentially a "newbie." They did not need to spend a lot of money debunking the computer searches because they are easy to debunk.

    Here is the gist of my speculation:

    Ricardo and KC started dating in early February 2008 and ended in mid-April 2008 (evidence page 2417).

    Sometime in early to mid-March Ricardo puts the "Win her over with chloroform" image (chloroform.jpg) on his myspace. This image was created by someone around 2004 but appeared on a number of myspace pages in March 2008. I cannot confirm this is when it appeared on Ricardo's page, so anyone with a screen shot of that page may be able to help solve a mystery.

    KC sees the image and wonders what the deal is with chloroform. Old people like me know what it is, but ask a senior in high school (such as my honors-student daughter) what it is, and most will have heard of it but not know what it is. I am betting KC fell into that category.

    Here are the clicks from March 17:

    17-Mar 9:36:12 Clicked a Google-hosted ad from a myspace page
    13:43:41 Search chloraform
    13:43:41 Search chloroform (
    Google automatically suggested correct spelling)
    13:54:26 Search alcohol
    13:54:42 Search acetone
    13:55:34 Search peroxide
    13:53:25 to 13:58:38 Wikipedia searches for inhalation, chloroform, alcohol, acetone, peroxide, hydrogen peroxide, death


    One should note that KC uses the default 10 results per page, and only once does she look at results 11 - 20. Using such generic terms and spending so little time between term, I believe she is doing nothing more than very high-level information gathering. This is what I got when putting the above into Google searches (adding -anthony).

    Now let's look at the clicks on March 21:

    21-Mar 14:16:30 Search how to make chloraform
    14:16:30 Search how to make chloroform
    (Google automatically suggested correct spelling)
    14:19:16 Clicked a Google syndicated ad
    14:20:32 Search self defense
    14:21:14 Clicked a Google syndicated ad
    14:21:58 Search household weapons
    14:22:01 Clicked a Google syndicated ad
    14:23:08 Clicked a blog poll hosted by Google http://www.google.com/reviews/polls/...kclr=%235588aa
    14:25:12 Clicked a Google syndicated ad
    14:25:33 Search household weapons
    14:25:54 Clicks http://books.google.com/books?id=_QMJNJIOKPEC&pg=PA79
    14:26:18 Clicks http://books.google.com/books?id=_QMJNJIOKPEC&pg=PA79
    14:26:24 Search neck breaking
    14:28:18 Search shovel


    Notice that one of the links is a women's self-defense book (visited twice) and the other is a zombie poll. All of this "research" was done in the span of 12 short minutes and we do not know what other non-Google websites were visited.

    Rumor has it that Ricardo may have had a bit of a temper. So...KC finds the image on his myspace....researches chloroform...decides he might be capable of using it on her...researches self-defense...runs across suggestions of how some useful household items might be used in self-defense...such as a shovel...eventually "breaks up" with him in mid-April.

    IMHO, the searches are unrelated to Caylee, but coincidentally helped the prosecution when no body was available.

    Thank God little Caylee showed up when she did.

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    Timing of Ricardo's myspace update and Casey's searches

    I posted the following on the Computer Forensics thread shortly after the lovely Miss Botwin pointed me to the date of the Ricardo update:

    Quote Originally Posted by nancy botwin View Post
    NICE-- thank you so much for outlining the google searches like this-- I was wondering what google book results she got specifically. And also having trouble actually reading all the hits, so thank you! Also, Ricardo uploaded the "Win her over with chloroform" image to his Facebook account on March 18. I have the screencap of his page here.
    Interesting...the screencap shows an upload on the 18th, and home computer searches on the topic on the 17th, the day before.

    So here is some additional speculation
    . KC is with Ricardo on Sunday the 16th and they are surfing around together and find the image on one of the myspace pages I found it on. Ric has a good chuckle about it and downloads it. The next day, KC looks it up to learn more, and the following day Ric get's back on his computer and uploads it to his myspace, possibly after KC mentioned looking it up earlier in the day.

    I don't think it is coincidence the search and upload occurred within a day of each other.

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    JWG - What if KC came up with the idea of chloroform all on her own (the search was done at a time she was clearly fantasizing about shovels, breaking necks, weapons) and told Ricardo or even asked Ricardo where to get it.

    He came across the picture the next day after their conversation and uploaded the picture as an inside joke with KC.

    KC could have confided in Ricardo about wanting to use chloroform (we still haven't figured out if Ricardo=Lexus during flurry of calls) to knock Caylee out or use it as a means of stealing from people (like AH or her parents).

    Not that I believe the whole chloroform idea and that it was used but I believe it probably happened the other way around:

    KC got the idea to look up chloroform - told Ricardo about it (weren't they dating then???) - then he found the pic and uploaded for a good laugh.

    Seems to make more sense than them coming across it while sitting together, her looking it up once alone at home, then him uploading it onto his Myspace or wherever he had it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by It's Not the Nanny View Post
    JWG - What if KC came up with the idea of chloroform all on her own (the search was done at a time she was clearly fantasizing about shovels, breaking necks, weapons) and told Ricardo or even asked Ricardo where to get it.

    He came across the picture the next day after their conversation and uploaded the picture as an inside joke with KC.

    KC could have confided in Ricardo about wanting to use chloroform (we still haven't figured out if Ricardo=Lexus during flurry of calls) to knock Caylee out or use it as a means of stealing from people (like AH or her parents).

    Not that I believe the whole chloroform idea and that it was used but I believe it probably happened the other way around:

    KC got the idea to look up chloroform - told Ricardo about it (weren't they dating then???) - then he found the pic and uploaded for a good laugh.

    Seems to make more sense than them coming across it while sitting together, her looking it up once alone at home, then him uploading it onto his Myspace or wherever he had it.
    Thanks INN, I understand where you are coming from.

    IMO, Ricardo and KC were together when they stumbled across the image on another myspace page. I quickly found several myspace pages with the same image uploaded in March, 2008 prior to Ricardo uploading...so it was spreading through that social network around that time.

    KC probably did not know what chloroform was but did not want to look stupid by asking Ricardo. She did a quick search and found out. This then lead to her searching "self-defense" and "shovel" was part of the self-defense search.

    How many times have we all done this sort of "free-flowing" internet searching? I presonally do it all the time...I think I have ADD though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JWG View Post
    Thanks INN, I understand where you are coming from.

    IMO, Ricardo and KC were together when they stumbled across the image on another myspace page. I quickly found several myspace pages with the same image uploaded in March, 2008 prior to Ricardo uploading...so it was spreading through that social network around that time.

    KC probably did not know what chloroform was but did not want to look stupid by asking Ricardo. She did a quick search and found out. This then lead to her searching "self-defense" and "shovel" was part of the self-defense search.

    How many times have we all done this sort of "free-flowing" internet searching? I presonally do it all the time...I think I have ADD though.
    Even so. She looked up household weapons and specifically "shovel" and we have far more than a "raised level" of shovel. We have an actual shovel and eye wittness testimony putting it in KC's possesion around the time of the murder.
    Don't you think there is far more evidence to suggest the Stanley shovel was the murder weapon, than evidence to suggest chloroform from unknown source?
    Do not go gentle into that good night.
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    JWG - I see your point when thinking about it in context of Ricardo's image spreading like wildfire across the social networking sites. For what it's worth, I think your analysis on the searches about chloroform, etc, is what landed me on the side of "chloroform not manufactured/created/used".

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