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Thread: All About Chloroform#2

  1. #1101
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    Quote Originally Posted by momtective View Post
    Yeah, it might'of been silly of me to post it...but after having watched it there were several things that would have interested KC. Covering the decomp with cigar smoke, using chloroform to knock someone out, using a lint roller on the body to remove trace, scraping the finger nails and using bleach to clean up.
    I was saying that my musings about their TV service and finding out who was watching what (if such a thing could be done) was silly. Your post about the episode is not silly. I think there is likely something to it, being that KC was a CSI fan. She could have gotten numerous ideas from that episode and the One Tree Hill episode. Sorry if I caused confusion.

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  3. #1102
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Eunice Burns View Post
    I was saying that my musings about their TV service and finding out who was watching what (if such a thing could be done) was silly. Your post about the episode is not silly. I think there is likely something to it, being that KC was a CSI fan. She could have gotten numerous ideas from that episode and the One Tree Hill episode. Sorry if I caused confusion.
    No Ma'am you are certainly not the source of my confusion...
    I understood your post perfectly.

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  5. #1103
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    Quote Originally Posted by fortytwo View Post
    Outstanding analogy, BJB.
    ...was thinkin' it would've been more appropriate to have a sleuther determine how long the cake was baked based on the taste of residual baking soda...or really the byproduct CO2=>measure of the interstitial spaces in the cake...then...thought some more....

    naaaaaaaaaahhhh

    We need an Arped-and-the-Oak-Ridge-Boys appreciation thread (no offense to the Oak Ridge girls). These are the peeps on which the case will hinge IMHO. Some props for these heros seems in order, eh?

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  7. #1104
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    Quote Originally Posted by momtective View Post
    No Ma'am you are certainly not the source of my confusion...
    I understood your post perfectly.
    Leave it to me to cause confusion where there was no confusion!

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  9. #1105
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    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousTwo View Post
    This may not be the appropriate thread, but how in the world can any jury not see that KC's entire story is filled with a patchwork of individuals she's encountered either physically, in print or verbally, throughout her life? Please tell me that LE will spell that out for the jury?

    I'm sure someone has already mentioned this one, but Juliette Lewis is the star of the movie "Natural Born Killers".


    moo
    Rest in Peace Sweet Caylee

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  11. #1106
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    Quote Originally Posted by BondJamesBond View Post
    ...not sure it'll help, but, after re-reading above...here's another angle.

    What they are doing is effectively trying to reverse-engineer what was actually in the trunk. Its a bit like tasting a cake and determining the recipe from your keenly developed sense of taste. Add to that what you can learn from cake recipes. From most recipes you have a good idea of the relative amounts of each different kind of common ingredient (e.g. 2x as much flour as sugar and 1000x as much flour as vanillin, etc.) should be in the cake. If you tasted a cake and thought, "Whoa! Waaaay too much vanillin!" well, then, you might think someone (a) added too much, or (b) spilled the vanillin bottle into the batter Add a little sleuthin' and learn that on the day after the cake was baked you found a receipt for a new bottle of vanillin...and AHA!! You think you've solved it. Right? The baker put in too much! You knew it!!

    Then you learn the truth. The baker forgot to stir the batter, and it just so happens that the bite you got contained 100% of the vanillin that was in the cake!!

    Moral of the story...we make assumptions when we draw conclusions. Some assumptions are good ones...and some...well...not so much.

    What do we know?
    • We know that chloroform is produced from anaerobic HDE
    • We know an HDE took place in Casey's trunk
    • We know chloroform was detected in Casey's trunk & not in a similar one w/o a HDE
    • We know Casey searched how to make chloroform March '08


    Now...IMHO the first three items in that list are repeatable...IOW...do the same thing 100 times and you're likely to get the same results ~100 times.

    The last thing in that list...well...that's where you make an assumption on how much initiative you think Casey is capable of. My I can't think of one other example that shows Casey demonstrated the kinda effort it would've taken to either obtain or produce chloroform. Make your own assumption, but, I can't get from Casey-read-about-it TO Casey-did-something-about-it.

    BTW...in the case of the Pontiac trunk...its more like the scientists have to sort out from everything we think might've been in the pantry...if it was too much vanillin that screwed up the cake. That's a toughie fershure.

    Thank you so much BJB for putting the scientific stuff into terms that I can actually relate to because one of my favorite chores is baking. Not saying I still completely understand all you tried very hard to explain but at least I am understanding it a little bit more. TY!

    I am interested in your comment regarding Casey's initiative, or lack of, either going to the trouble of actually making or obtaining the chloroform. I don't know what to make of the computer searches on the subject but when I allow myself to entertain it having value in some form, I have wondered if KC became aware of it either by watching some tv program or seeing RM's "joke" about "woo her with chloroform" on his computer. But the theory that I seem to prefer is that during one of the hang out/party times, sitting around listening to the military guys talk about their experiences in Iraq, chloroform was part of the conversation. This seems to be a touchy subject as in at least one LE interview, one of these guys was asked what they know about chloroform and they reply they only have knowledge of it from their time in Iraq. What I found strange was that this was not expanded on by LE. That subject seemed to be immediately dropped. I was left wondering if the rest was not released to the public or if there were orders from "above" to "leave that alone". Do you KWIM? I am wondering if KC overheard things she then went on to use. To apply to her plan. Whether the original plan was to do away with the A's or Caylee IDK. I'm wondering if she heard ways to easily produce it but she didn't overhear or all she needed to know wasn't fully discussed. So she botched the storage of it and it ends up spilling in her trunk. I thought I read somewhere that chloroform is heavier than air so it would have descended and attached to any/all material in the bottom of the trunk, right? Carpet, any clothes she had back there, anything. Anyway, I am really stuck on this military connection. Has anyone else had these thoughts? And I had no idea about the half life info. That would make getting rid of the chloroform next to impossible wouldn't it?

    Please be kind all in your replies---I believe I am a right brain thinker--more emotional, artistic etc, less intellectual.


    Rest in Peace Sweet Caylee

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  13. #1107
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    *snipped*
    Quote Originally Posted by doogiesgirl View Post
    I am interested in your comment regarding Casey's initiative, or lack of, either going to the trouble of actually making or obtaining the chloroform. I don't know what to make of the computer searches on the subject but when I allow myself to entertain it having value in some form, I have wondered if KC became aware of it either by watching some tv program or seeing RM's "joke" about "woo her with chloroform" on his computer. But the theory that I seem to prefer is that during one of the hang out/party times, sitting around listening to the military guys talk about their experiences in Iraq, chloroform was part of the conversation. This seems to be a touchy subject as in at least one LE interview, one of these guys was asked what they know about chloroform and they reply they only have knowledge of it from their time in Iraq. What I found strange was that this was not expanded on by LE. That subject seemed to be immediately dropped. I was left wondering if the rest was not released to the public or if there were orders from "above" to "leave that alone". Do you KWIM? I am wondering if KC overheard things she then went on to use. To apply to her plan. Whether the original plan was to do away with the A's or Caylee IDK. I'm wondering if she heard ways to easily produce it but she didn't overhear or all she needed to know wasn't fully discussed. So she botched the storage of it and it ends up spilling in her trunk. I thought I read somewhere that chloroform is heavier than air so it would have descended and attached to any/all material in the bottom of the trunk, right? Carpet, any clothes she had back there, anything. Anyway, I am really stuck on this military connection. Has anyone else had these thoughts? And I had no idea about the half life info. That would make getting rid of the chloroform next to impossible wouldn't it?
    Apologies for bein' too lazy to look it up for you, but, JWG did an exhaustive explanation of Casey's thread-of-consciousness surfing that earned her the dubious searched-how-to-make-chloraform (sic) moniker. IIRC, he also wove in the timing of Ricardo's MySpace seduce-her-with-chloroform (no-sic) pic. Don't quote me...I'm just wingin' here.

    Iassen talked a bit about use of chloroform in combat to subdue unruly POW's, and there was some rumbling 'bout this being sideways w/ the Geneva convention, hence, not being SOP, etc, etc. Amen.

    If you waste enough time readin' this stuff you'll also find buried in there somewhere that chloroform can be used to extract THC (the go juice in pot, mary jane, weed, etc. etc.) and perhaps Casey sourced this from Tony's do-it-yourself Sutton Place Apt. Lab which we have no evidence to support ever existed.

    All that bein' said (or typed rather) it is certainly possible (not probable IMHO) that Casey dipped into someone elses get-ur-chloroform-here tap as you described. Wait a sec...I think I just saw a monkey flyin' out of my...oh...nevermind.

    Please be kind all in your replies---I believe I am a right brain thinker--more emotional, artistic etc, less intellectual.
    You're one-up on me...I'm a seatathapants thinker - absolutely devoid of emotion AND intellect In general I think much better when unencumbered by the facts.

    HTH.

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  15. #1108
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    Quote Originally Posted by BondJamesBond View Post
    *snipped*


    Apologies for bein' too lazy to look it up for you, but, JWG did an exhaustive explanation of Casey's thread-of-consciousness surfing that earned her the dubious searched-how-to-make-chloraform (sic) moniker. IIRC, he also wove in the timing of Ricardo's MySpace seduce-her-with-chloroform (no-sic) pic. Don't quote me...I'm just wingin' here.

    Iassen talked a bit about use of chloroform in combat to subdue unruly POW's, and there was some rumbling 'bout this being sideways w/ the Geneva convention, hence, not being SOP, etc, etc. Amen.

    If you waste enough time readin' this stuff you'll also find buried in there somewhere that chloroform can be used to extract THC (the go juice in pot, mary jane, weed, etc. etc.) and perhaps Casey sourced this from Tony's do-it-yourself Sutton Place Apt. Lab which we have no evidence to support ever existed.

    All that bein' said (or typed rather) it is certainly possible (not probable IMHO) that Casey dipped into someone elses get-ur-chloroform-here tap as you described. Wait a sec...I think I just saw a monkey flyin' out of my...oh...nevermind.

    You're one-up on me...I'm a seatathapants thinker - absolutely devoid of emotion AND intellect In general I think much better when unencumbered by the facts.

    HTH.
    LOL LOL All I could see in my mind is that scene from "Bruce AlmightY" where he has monkeys fly out the @zz of that thug!!!! OH, that was a good laugh!

    Oh well, you know what will probably end up happening? That those computer searches had nothing to do with what happened to Caylee. It probably got typed into google for one of those reasons that none of us could have ever imagined! It's probably the name of a danged band for all we know! We've all caused our brains to hurt for no reason for months! Now wouldn't that take the cake? moo
    Rest in Peace Sweet Caylee

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  17. #1109
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    *snipped*
    Quote Originally Posted by doogiesgirl View Post
    Now wouldn't that take the cake?
    Bravo! Well played.

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  19. #1110
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    Not to break up the lovefest or anything...but I personally think it might be significant that any of the names KC came up with in her interviews with LE...she came up with on her own. ie...wasn't fed them by some fictious nanny and her equally fictious sister or other SODDI types. That is all I meant by posting what I did.

    I do find it somewhat interesting that her bull.... boss happened to be named Tom Manley (her words not mine...) a name that just happens to be linked to the discovery of chloroform. Oh well.

    Hope KC enjoys her pop tarts. It is quite apparent from all I have seen of her recent appearances that she has.

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  21. #1111
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    Sorry to be so obstinate, but I'm holdin' out on the chloroform. The search warrant narrative 12/11 mentioned the chloroform finding, both the FBIs and Dr. Vass'. This was after the body was found, with the duct tape, so the chloroform wasn't really necessary as a means at that point. See pg 6 of 18 here:

    http://www.wftv.com/news/18530424/detail.html

    If this finding was some sort of misunderstanding/misinterpretation, I don't see the purpose of bringing it along as late as 12/11, unless it was really there and unaccounted for re decomp. I don't think the SA/LE would allow such an "oops" to carry on that long.

    While I don't really see KC making chloroform, one does have to consider the number of people who mix cold pills and paint thinner in their bathtubs, then stick it in their ovens to make meth. People do weird things.

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  23. #1112
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    Quote Originally Posted by treeseeker View Post
    Sorry to be so obstinate, but I'm holdin' out on the chloroform. The search warrant narrative 12/11 mentioned the chloroform finding, both the FBIs and Dr. Vass'. This was after the body was found, with the duct tape, so the chloroform wasn't really necessary as a means at that point. See pg 6 of 18 here:

    http://www.wftv.com/news/18530424/detail.html

    If this finding was some sort of misunderstanding/misinterpretation, I don't see the purpose of bringing it along as late as 12/11, unless it was really there and unaccounted for re decomp. I don't think the SA/LE would allow such an "oops" to carry on that long.

    While I don't really see KC making chloroform, one does have to consider the number of people who mix cold pills and paint thinner in their bathtubs, then stick it in their ovens to make meth. People do weird things.
    By all means, treeseeker, we need more obstinate people. Nothing wrong w/ that! Esp. when you provide your own source links

    IMHO, what shows up in the 12/11 warrant is a natural extension of Arped's emails that we read recently. Just being thorough And that's a good thing.

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  25. #1113
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    I've always thought the Heloise Hints type "subdue and exterminate" searches in March were more about brainstorming for GA or CA than a premeditated attempt to kill a toddler. She could have done that with her bare hands without using duct tape even. Especially since she mentioned to her brother that CA tried to "choke her" the night of the fight.

    Since SP had already mentioned to CA that she did not want KC there to visit and to not pay her back because the bank already had - it had always made me think the fight was more about something CA found out from Caylee when they drove to Mt. Dora rather than old news like the birthday check. CA may have been very surprised to find out that Caylee had slept in the same room as KC and RM the preceding week, or something of that ilk since she may have been pumping her for info on where the two of them had been staying.

    Even if COD was choking - which, like smothering, would be unlikely to prove unless there is proof the duct tape was applied antemortem - (and if choking was the case it could have been either the origin of KC's story or simply an ironic twist in KC's mind if CA had actually done it) - she could have still covered Caylee's mouth and nose with an unnecessary amount of duct tape, sealing her "silence" with that heart sticker. I know that struck many of us as an act of anger or spite.
    Last edited by cecybeans; 09-02-2009 at 10:01 AM. Reason: add phrase
    "Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices" - Voltaire

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  27. #1114
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    Quote Originally Posted by treeseeker View Post
    Sorry to be so obstinate, but I'm holdin' out on the chloroform. The search warrant narrative 12/11 mentioned the chloroform finding, both the FBIs and Dr. Vass'. This was after the body was found, with the duct tape, so the chloroform wasn't really necessary as a means at that point. See pg 6 of 18 here:

    http://www.wftv.com/news/18530424/detail.html

    If this finding was some sort of misunderstanding/misinterpretation, I don't see the purpose of bringing it along as late as 12/11, unless it was really there and unaccounted for re decomp. I don't think the SA/LE would allow such an "oops" to carry on that long.

    While I don't really see KC making chloroform, one does have to consider the number of people who mix cold pills and paint thinner in their bathtubs, then stick it in their ovens to make meth. People do weird things.

    Oh I may say I am giving up on the chloroform----but I think I am lying to myself. It's just that every time I come up with a theory, there will be some reason I think of later that makes it not work. Or when I read another poster's theory that sounds plausible---it will have holes poked in it. It just seems like no one can come up with what we need. I am hoping LE knows and we will find out at trial or afterwards, trust me. MOO
    Rest in Peace Sweet Caylee

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  29. #1115
    In part 1 of the interview with Tracy she says she is talking to Casey about the "date rape drug" and that she, Tracy brought the whole subject up, and that she told Casey it was in a liquid form and if you took just a little too much you were out, and then they talked about other things that would put you out like that and Casey listed "and chloroform" as one of THOSE things and this was before chloroform had come UP in the case at all...so I think that is significant.
    http://www.filedropper.com/tracymcpt1
    about 23 minutes in.

    ABC provided $200,000.00 to
    Casey Anthonys defense!
    The MURDERED should not be USED to pay for the MURDERERS DEFENSE!

    American Tragedy: The defense of Casey Anthony.

    Juror No. 11 somehow made the journey from Casey is the one on trial to George may be a murderer, based on how George acted on the stand? 3 years of evidence against Casey and he throws George under the bus. Makes sense?
    What evidence indicated that George might be a murderer? Anyone?
    Weren't they to ONLY consider EVIDENCE?
    This NOT GUILTY verdict throws Caylee right back into the swamp she decomposed in. Thanks to this "impartial" jury.

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  31. #1116
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    Quote Originally Posted by magic-cat View Post
    In part 1 of the interview with Tracy she says she is talking to Casey about the "date rape drug" and that she, Tracy brought the whole subject up, and that she told Casey it was in a liquid form and if you took just a little too much you were out, and then they talked about other things that would put you out like that and Casey listed "and chloroform" as one of THOSE things and this was before chloroform had come UP in the case at all...so I think that is significant.
    http://www.filedropper.com/tracymcpt1
    about 23 minutes in.
    KC said something incriminating. Wow. I am speechless...lol. TY for posting that in this thread. Like I have said before about KC...cooked goose much?

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  33. #1117
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    Quote Originally Posted by treeseeker View Post
    Sorry to be so obstinate, but I'm holdin' out on the chloroform. The search warrant narrative 12/11 mentioned the chloroform finding, both the FBIs and Dr. Vass'. This was after the body was found, with the duct tape, so the chloroform wasn't really necessary as a means at that point. See pg 6 of 18 here:

    http://www.wftv.com/news/18530424/detail.html

    If this finding was some sort of misunderstanding/misinterpretation, I don't see the purpose of bringing it along as late as 12/11, unless it was really there and unaccounted for re decomp. I don't think the SA/LE would allow such an "oops" to carry on that long.

    While I don't really see KC making chloroform, one does have to consider the number of people who mix cold pills and paint thinner in their bathtubs, then stick it in their ovens to make meth. People do weird things.
    I am with you all the way. Chloroform does not go along with any of my rational, logical theories of what was done to Caylee, but IMO it states pretty clearly in the lab reports repeatedly it was found in higher than usual amounts. It does not, however, state in the lab reports any cleaning fluid residues containing chloroform, any cleaning residues that in combination would produce chloroform, or any chlorine were found in the trunk. It is also MOO any competent lab tech would go on to test for these elements that would cause the higher than usual chloroform readings to find an explanation for it other than it actually being chloroform if there was plausible reason to do so, and in fact, I don't have the link, but they did even check against the little boy's case whose mother carried his remains around in the trunk of her car for quite some time.
    Lanie

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  35. #1118
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    Quote Originally Posted by doogiesgirl View Post
    Oh I may say I am giving up on the chloroform----but I think I am lying to myself. It's just that every time I come up with a theory, there will be some reason I think of later that makes it not work. Or when I read another poster's theory that sounds plausible---it will have holes poked in it. It just seems like no one can come up with what we need. I am hoping LE knows and we will find out at trial or afterwards, trust me. MOO
    FWIW, here's my hypothetical.
    Casey either cooked up a batch on her own, after all, she did have lots of free time on her hands, or she stole some from somewhere. I don't know why, maybe she had some scheme to off Cindy and/or George, and it was foiled somehow. IMO, it's possible she administered it to Caylee orally. Caylee could have started choking on it and spitting it up, so Casey could have then even forced some more down her and then duct taped her mouth and nose shut to keep it down. JMOO.

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  37. #1119
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    Quote Originally Posted by JWG View Post
    I thought it might be worth listing all items that LE seized as part of the Dec. 11 search warrant that appear to be associated with either chloroform manufacture or some other form of drugging Caylee:

    North shed One jug of "Baquacil" pool chemicals
    One box with bottles of "Baquacil" pool chemicals
    edited slightly, BBM & repectfully snipped

    Quote Originally Posted by JWG View Post
    I have wanted to know for some time whether or not the high-levels of chloroform found in the trunk could have been formed as a result of a decomposing body that had drowned. As a result I decided to try a little experiment to see if I could make chloroform.

    I referred to the sci-spot article on making chloroform to get a better understanding of what success would look like. Success would be a bunch of bubbles at the bottom of my "reaction vessel", looking not unlike tadpole eggs.

    My goal, however, was not to duplicate the sci-spot experiment. It was to simulate the manufacture of "extra" chloroform produced by a drowning victim, in this case a small child.

    Instead of using one cup of bleach like the experiment, I used 1000ml of swimming pool water. This is approximately four cups and looked like it was about the volume of water a small child's lungs would hold. I will mention that our swimming pool, while chlorinated, does not smell strongly of chlorine. It is possible (probably likely) the Anthony's pool contains more chlorine by volume than ours.
    edited slightly, BBM & respectfully snipped


    Not to single you out JWG, ( luv ya madly!) but I'm using two of your posts from pg 40 of this thread to help illustrate my point.

    I keep seeing a lot of references in various threads about the chlorine component of the Anthony's backyard pool, and it's been kinda working my nerves...

    Since LE reports (from the 12/11/08 search warrant) taking bottles of Baquacil from the shed, I think that it's reasonable to assume that this is the line of chemicals that the Anthony's were dedicated to using in their pool. Baquacil is a line that is chlorine-free. Apparently it utilizes hydrogen peroxide instead.

    www.baquacil.com/
    ...my 2 cents worth. your mileage may vary.

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  39. #1120
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    What degree is TL working toward? (The question is actually not OT.)

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  41. #1121
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    This woman is a manipulator of the first degree. I'm still convinced she planned to OFF GA, CA, and CMA by way of staged accident. Stevie Wonder could see that a screw is loose in any of the Ants you can name.

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  43. #1122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valhall View Post
    What degree is TL working toward? (The question is actually not OT.)
    I think it was some sort of music business degree at Full Sail.
    I started out with nothing, and I still have most of it left.


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  45. #1123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valhall View Post
    What degree is TL working toward? (The question is actually not OT.)
    There was a Full Sail registration printout in the trash bag in KC's car but I don't remember seeing the actual document.

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  47. #1124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valhall View Post
    What degree is TL working toward? (The question is actually not OT.)


    Re: Questions for Tony L.
    Reply #63 on: September 26, 2008, 11:51:30 AM

    Full Sail University I just graduated from the Recording Arts program and now im starting Music Business.

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  49. #1125
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    bumpity bump for information

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