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Thread: Casey & Family Psychological Profile #5

  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchie Treat View Post
    Did she suddenly become frightened of KC? Is she enabling her out of fear? Thoughts, sleuths???
    I had thought of that, especially after reading about Casey telling Amy that C & G were going to give Casey the house, etc...

    Reading about that made me wonder if Casey had planned to get rid of her parents. But then again, it could have just been another one of Casey's lies.
    My Mom told me (and showed me) that "Parent is a verb, not a noun" ~ thanks Mom

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    Quote Originally Posted by Advocate4 View Post
    This is what I'm wondering about, goes back to my question on how can sociopaths be held fully accountable? Whether nature or nurture, it does not seem that sociopaths "choose" to be the way they are, so how can we hold them as fully accountable as we do those who are not sociopaths? It may not be classified as a mental illness, but clearly it is some kind of illness. Who would want to mess up their lives this much if they could exert normal human controls over behavior? I am reading about how they "don't care" as if the "not caring" is something they are doing on purpose, and of course I can understand how it can sure look to others like it is on purpose when the others have to deal with the results, but if sociopaths don't know HOW to care, then I don't see how they can be held fully accountable. Yes, in terms of intelligence they can understand there is a law against murder, but if that is "just words" to them, if they don't understand FEELINGS, so that murdering someone doesn't mean anything to them, then I fail to see how it can be said that they understand what the law means.

    Mind you, I'm not trying to make excuses or argue, I'm trying to nail this down because it seems that at a certain important level they aren't responsible for their actions, and so how, in a humane society, can we flatly condemn them?
    First let me say that there is absolutely no evidence that people are born with personality disorders. Nada. The nature vs. nurture argument continues to rage.

    Secondly, whether or not a person cares is not what makes them accountable for their behavior. Sociopaths have complete control over their behavior. The fact they don't care about others doesn't take away their ability to control themselves. Someone may not care enough about their neighbor not to steal from him but they don't because they know it is wrong and they might go to jail.
    Last edited by softsoul; 10-10-2008 at 09:15 AM.


  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by nancy botwin View Post
    Hi-- I respect your insight on this topic. If you don't mind my asking-- what do you think Casey is? This is a big question-- but I was just wondering what your thoughts are.
    I'm sorry I missed your question here, I hope you caught my answer in the other thread!

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    Quote Originally Posted by MeenaMom View Post
    Hi there first post in a long time.....I have to agree with OneLostGirl...I do NOT believe that KC is solely responsible in this case I believe it is a horrible dysfunctional family issue...I believe it is an ugly mirror in our society in veiwing our children as products of ourselves as Cindy A clearly did...She did this by excusing Kc behavior at young age helping to perpetuate this disorder whatever it is..The Family shares this...Our society is creating monsters in this privileged overprotected generation, not all of them...but they are there and KC is a blatant example...I find the fault with Cindy as much as KC because I had a mother just like Cindy, full of severe untreated disorders......That I am a more loving mother is a miracle...
    I think you must have misunderstood my posts.. If it is found Casey murdered Caylee and Cindy was not involved in the actual crime, I do believe Casey is soley responsible.

    I was brought up worse than Casey was, in a home far more disfunctional than what we know the Anthony home to be (obviously we don't know for sure what life was like under that roof but we have been able to see the history of 911 calls to the A's home in the past like 5 years and none of the calls were serious and IMO if there were awful things I think we'd have heard about them by now) and I did not grow up to murder my child, nor did my siblings... we all have our issues but each of us drew the line at something. So while I do believe that how a person is raised has a pretty big impact on who they end up to be, I believe we make choices in life and each of us needs to be held accountable for our own choices.

    I could sit here for the rest of my life and point fingers at my mother, blaming her for every bad thing that has happened to me or I can do something to make sure I don't end up just like her. For a lot of years I thought I was destined to be like her then all of a sudden I woke up and decided no way-"no WAY am I going to allow you to decide how the rest of MY life plays out.. you controled the first half- I'ma control the rest!" and I began to get serious about changing my behaviors.

    Casey knew she was turning into her mother too, she knew it when she was with Jesse (per his interview) she just chose to do nothing about it. As much as I dislike Cindy (she reminds me of my mom too, Arrgh!)) how can we hold Cindy responsible for Casey's choice?

    One thing my mom taught me was we each have free will.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Janis396 View Post
    Hmm, you could be right. We will probably eventually know the answer to that question once the trial gets underway.

    But, to think Police Officers would risk their career to cover for someone like her?? WOW, I know things like that DO happen, but still. That's wayyyy worse to me than a crime she committed that they cover for her.
    Who knows, could be that's why that one cop was so intent on lying about his relationship with her. I could be wrong. I could very well be wrong but as someone who has done the same things she has (except harming my child, of course) I really think we will find she was in some sort of trouble before.

    I wonder what happened with school, what kind of student she was, if she skipped school a lot, had mom take her to the doctor a lot so she could have excused absenses.. why she quit school etc. I wish there was a way to find out.

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    I realize that this thread is about CA but having followed this case for a while now, I am finally coming to the conclusion that it might be possible that each member of this family has some form of personality disorder. Nothing and no one is behaving quite right...And to top it off - it almost seems as though they have isolated themselves into an insular "bubble" where they were all enabling each other without anyone else really being allowed in. Now - one of the "members" has done something to burst the whole thing open but the other three still seem to be hell-bent on trying to contain themselves in their own exclusive world??? Its all so strange and confusing to watch!

    MOO

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    Quote Originally Posted by Advocate4 View Post
    Possibly an insane asylum, but maybe prison does as well. I guess I am thinking that it's not right to give them the death penalty, though. Mind you, I do believe in the death penalty generally speaking. But I know that some study has been/is being done on sociopaths, psychopaths, and I'm sure a lot more needs to be done in order to get the best possible handle on these conditions, so seems like keeping them in prison or a medical institution where more can be learned could be of value to society.
    Sociopath/Psychopaths are as old as time and one thing we do know is this- they are as untreatable as pedaphiles. They have an absolute unwillingness to admit the problem belongs to them and not society. They justify their actions and are found to recommit their crimes over and over and over again often progressing in violence each time.

    Listen, I realize it sounds like we are just throwing people away but it's the only choice we have.. they do not stop doing what they do unless and until they are stopped... period. This isn't some new, strange phenomenon, there are years and years of studies and history that we have about this disorder. The protection of society as a whole has to come before them just like with pedaphiles.

    The thing is though, IMO- the term Psychopath/Sociopath is over used. It used to be held out and used for severe devients but that isn't the case anymore and I think that has a lot to do with the confusion in regard to what we should do with them

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pink Panther View Post
    I realize that this thread is about CA but having followed this case for a while now, I am finally coming to the conclusion that it might be possible that each member of this family has some form of personality disorder. Nothing and no one is behaving quite right...And to top it off - it almost seems as though they have isolated themselves into an insular "bubble" where they were all enabling each other without anyone else really being allowed in. Now - one of the "members" has done something to burst the whole thing open but the other three still seem to be hell-bent on trying to contain themselves in their own exclusive world??? Its all so strange and confusing to watch! MOO
    Dynamics of a dysfunctional mobile. Each person in the family has his/her place on the strings of the mobile. Each person causes the mobile to move but they all move together to "balance" the mobile. One person throws the mobile off and the others scramble around in order to control the mobile and keep the dysfunction where they know it and function best in it. This can happen when, in the case of the Anthonys, one does something so heinous to bring the outside world in, in which case, they all must do whatever they can to keep that world out because no one should ever see how they really are, or in other instances, drops completely out of the cycle of the family mobile and begins to change their life completely for the better. In this last instance, you would see the rest of the family cut that person off completely, pretending as though that person had never existed; instead protecting the dysfunction instead of choosing to be healthy.

    I probably muddled it all up even more for you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OneLostGrl View Post
    I think you must have misunderstood my posts.. If it is found Casey murdered Caylee and Cindy was not involved in the actual crime, I do believe Casey is soley responsible.

    I was brought up worse than Casey was, in a home far more disfunctional than what we know the Anthony home to be (obviously we don't know for sure what life was like under that roof but we have been able to see the history of 911 calls to the A's home in the past like 5 years and none of the calls were serious and IMO if there were awful things I think we'd have heard about them by now) and I did not grow up to murder my child, nor did my siblings... we all have our issues but each of us drew the line at something. So while I do believe that how a person is raised has a pretty big impact on who they end up to be, I believe we make choices in life and each of us needs to be held accountable for our own choices.

    I could sit here for the rest of my life and point fingers at my mother, blaming her for every bad thing that has happened to me or I can do something to make sure I don't end up just like her. For a lot of years I thought I was destined to be like her then all of a sudden I woke up and decided no way-"no WAY am I going to allow you to decide how the rest of MY life plays out.. you controled the first half- I'ma control the rest!" and I began to get serious about changing my behaviors.

    Casey knew she was turning into her mother too, she knew it when she was with Jesse (per his interview) she just chose to do nothing about it. As much as I dislike Cindy (she reminds me of my mom too, Arrgh!)) how can we hold Cindy responsible for Casey's choice?

    One thing my mom taught me was we each have free will.
    You are absolutely right IMO. I have seen people go through absolute hell and not turn around and hurt others left and right. I also believe that many sociopaths, especially pedophiles, either completely fabricate or exaggerate abusive childhoods in order to gain sympathy and receive lighter punishments...happens all the time.

    I think many people's reaction to this case highlights our tendency to "mother blame" especially in regard to mental health issues. George is not seen as having as much responsibility for how Casey ended up. People will say that fathers are just as important as mothers, yet they fail to hold them as accountable for the behaviors of their children. You can't have it both ways. Both parents, if present, have the responsibility to protect and guide their children...no excuses for either if this is done poorly. Having said that, Casey is an adult and did what she did of her own free will, knowing the possible consequences to herself and others. She deserves no special consideration due to her lack of empathy and complete arrogance.


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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulaF513 View Post
    The general public has little in the way of training and education in psychiatry so we need to be cautious when applying the "disorder du jour" to people who populate our own lives. A presumed diagnosis of sociopathy can be devastating to an individual and to their families. .
    Very true. The diagnosis of sociopathy is so devastating that those of us with bona fide diagnosed sociopaths in our families often remain in denial when we've got clinical confirmation in addition to very clear criminal evidence reinforcing it.

    Oddly, despite its outrageous in-your-face nature when the level of depravity is revealed (if it's revealed; often it is not--the sociopath can be monstrous at home and delightfully charming elsewhere) sociopathy lends itself very well to denial. The sociopath is generally able to maintain a brilliant facade that can often fool even mental health professionals for a fairly protracted period of time. It takes a long, long time to reach the diagnosis. And by the time it's made, denial in family is often well-entrenched. It seems insane to those observing from afar, but it's easier to believe the unbelievable than it is to say, "I am in the midst of terrible evil, and I play a role in it" (even though the role is really only that of ...well, stage dressing. We are all props for the sociopath--used and discarded as needed to create just the right scene.)

    And that denial is a survival mechanism for those who live with and/or love the sociopath. I cannot begin to describe what it is like to learn that you have been fooled for years, nor can I describe the level of devastation and shame associated with the diagnosis. It is positively horrifying to learn you've been taken in---even when you know that any reasonable person would have acted the same way in your shoes.

    Throw in the fact that sometimes, the people dealing with sociopaths are NOT reasonable, and you can wind up with a real mess on your hands.

  11. #211
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    Does anyone know if Ted Bundy was ever diagnosed as being a Sociopath? To me, he seems like the poster boy for it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by BonKai View Post
    Snipped for space


    I had thought of that, especially after reading about Casey telling Amy that C & G were going to give Casey the house, etc...

    Reading about that made me wonder if Casey had planned to get rid of her parents. But then again, it could have just been another one of Casey's lies.
    The choroform made me wonder if she was planning on doing awayy with the whole family. She wouldn't have needed chloroform to knock Caylee out.

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    Is this the Cindy thread? OK, good. I posted this on another thread, but wanted to leave it here too as it seems appropriate.
    .................................................. ........................................
    Tim Miller possibly talking with Cindy now.
    I have a strong urge to pray and that happens rarely.
    I cannot imagine how Cindy has held it together recently.
    If LP was correct, then Cindy has probably had to face the paternity issue in the last couple of weeks. I sort of doubt she knew...or maybe she always 'knew' but did not know...am I making any sense at all?
    Just feeling today is a very important day between Cindy and Tim.
    He knows he must handle her with kid gloves.
    He does not have to reach out to her at all. She has nothing to offer.
    Tim is just trying to prepare her. I think he knows what it out there.
    Tim knows it is a matter of very few days until those few bones are brought forward and identified.
    He has a heart of GOLD.

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    Cindy's interview with LE

    I have a new laptop and have finally been able to catch up on video from the past. I just got done watching Cindy's interview with LE (part 1 & 2). I do not know if this is a good place to comment - but I heard so much about how CINDY was a liar and crazy, etc.

    Well - from everything I heard her say - she sounds as sane as a person could with having her grandaughter missing and a daughter accused of murdering her.

    She sounded straight forward and trying to help LE with a timeline to the best of her ability! I thought she did remarkably well considereing the circumstances.

    Where do people get off calling her a liar with LE
    "Your words and actions should reflect how you would want someone to act and speak towards you"

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    Quote Originally Posted by TruthSeeker View Post
    I have a new laptop and have finally been able to catch up on video from the past. I just got done watching Cindy's interview with LE (part 1 & 2). I do not know if this is a good place to comment - but I heard so much about how CINDY was a liar and crazy, etc.

    Well - from everything I heard her say - she sounds as sane as a person could with having her grandaughter missing and a daughter accused of murdering her.

    She sounded straight forward and trying to help LE with a timeline to the best of her ability! I thought she did remarkably well considereing the circumstances.

    Where do people get off calling her a liar with LE
    IMO there's way too much to go back over to answer that question.

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    I get frustrated with Cindy's actions. And sometimes I just feel like I want to shake her until she realizes what has happened, what her daughter has done and what she is capable of doing. Until she realizes that if Casey is allowed to stay free, that she will never have another moments peace because down deep she knows that Casey is a danger to herself and George, and that if allowed to stay free that she will have other children, children that she will always worry about.

    At the same time, I have to wonder .... when is it time to realize? When does the family of a missing child realize that they have to give up, they have to move on, they have to begin to believe that child is dead? One year, five years, 10 years or more- or never? It is different with every family. So when do you realize that your child is beyond help, beyond saving, give up on your child? I believe it is somewhat the same, when do you agree that your child should be jailed? For some parents, it will take longer than others.

    I too wonder why she hasn't had a nervous breakdown by now. Or maybe she has.

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    I'm probably the only one on the forum who thinks this, but IMO, George shows more signs of something not being right than Cindy does. I think Cindy has been extremely manipulated, bullied, and used. She seems to go on facts and working things out verbally, so Casey was sure to use lots of words and deceptions in her manipulations. As far as lying goes, I've seen whole groups of people and families who all think it is just fine to lie and deceive, not even caring that it's wrong, but that doesn't mean they're mentally ill. Just not very moral.

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    I haven't read this whole entire thread because it's awfully long, but I read most of it, and I just wanted to pipe in and say this. There are four things that I know, for sure, in my heart of hearts:

    1) Cindy loved Caylee.

    2) Cindy is not the one who killed Caylee and thus brought all this down on their family.

    3) Cindy did not wish for any of this to happen.

    4) Cindy is absolutely, positively terrified of the horrific truths of this situation.

    Now, I ask myself what I would do if I were in such a situation and those four things were true of me. I do believe I would handle it better than Cindy, but it's hard to know for sure. Regardless of what personal flaws she may have, or whether she parented Casey badly, or whether she's a good and decent person in general, or whether she's not... No matter what, she is a person who finds herself smack in the middle of a scenario that is never "supposed" to happen.

    Even if you're not a great parent, even if you have flaws, this is never supposed to happen. There but for the grace of God, and all...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mom of Five View Post
    Personality Disorders really are about nature. Kids are born that way. The illness can then either be dealt with by the family or not dealt with, and the way it manifests itself can destroy an otherwise normal family.

    There are four siblings in my family. Only one of us is mentally ill. It had nothing to do with the way my parents raised us, but the way my parents dealt with the manifestations of my siblings mental illness, ultimately destroyed our family.
    Do not agree that Personality Disorder is up to nature. You are not born a sociopath. This is a product of your environment. Cindy has the same traits as Casey. Cindy has transferred her issues to Casey by raising her to be the way she is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by txsvicki View Post
    I'm probably the only one on the forum who thinks this, but IMO, George shows more signs of something not being right than Cindy does. I think Cindy has been extremely manipulated, bullied, and used. She seems to go on facts and working things out verbally, so Casey was sure to use lots of words and deceptions in her manipulations. As far as lying goes, I've seen whole groups of people and families who all think it is just fine to lie and deceive, not even caring that it's wrong, but that doesn't mean they're mentally ill. Just not very moral.
    No way...George displays the classic hen-pecked husband traits. Notice who always does the talking when they are together in front of the media or the crazy protestors. George was also the one who filed or divorce a few years ago. Cindy wears the pants in that family. Casey got her lying and manipulation traits from Cindy.

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    Edited for personal reasons.
    Last edited by Blackwatch; 10-13-2008 at 05:27 AM. Reason: Worded Badly

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    Quote Originally Posted by karenmamo View Post
    Is this the Cindy thread? OK, good. I posted this on another thread, but wanted to leave it here too as it seems appropriate.
    .................................................. ........................................
    Tim Miller possibly talking with Cindy now.
    I have a strong urge to pray and that happens rarely.
    I cannot imagine how Cindy has held it together recently.
    If LP was correct, then Cindy has probably had to face the paternity issue in the last couple of weeks. I sort of doubt she knew...or maybe she always 'knew' but did not know...am I making any sense at all?
    Just feeling today is a very important day between Cindy and Tim.
    He knows he must handle her with kid gloves.
    He does not have to reach out to her at all. She has nothing to offer.
    Tim is just trying to prepare her. I think he knows what it out there.
    Tim knows it is a matter of very few days until those few bones are brought forward and identified.
    He has a heart of GOLD.
    Tim Miller is such a kind hearted man. He knows how devastated CA will be when Caylee's body is found. Having lost a daughter, he understands CA's grief and not wanting to accept the fact that Caylee is dead. I'm sure he is talking to her as gently as he can.

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    Helpful Info From the Web - Enmeshment

    I found some stuff on the web that I found helpful in understanding the Cindy Anthony bizarre behavior (yes, I think her behavior is bizarre and growing more so ...)

    1. First, a therapist who shows diagrams for a healthy family's boundaries, esp as they extend between parents and children:

    http://everyoneneedstherapy.blogspot...ting-dots.html

    I'm wondering how this therapist would diagram the Anthony family ....

    2. Then, a good discussion of emeshment (Cindy and Casey, for sure, I'm thinking):

    http://family.jrank.org/pages/172/Bo...ssolution.html

    3. And, finally, a nice post summarizing The Sociopath Next Door --

    http://withoutempathy.blogspot.com/2...-among-us.html

    I'm wondering if Cindy is so enmeshed with Casey, psychologically, that she (Cindy) is essentially self-protecting in all these actions that I've been considering denial due to grief or horror ....

    I'm thinking this enmeshment concept explains a lot of the Anthony family behaviors which appear so bizarre from the outside looking in ....

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    Quote Originally Posted by tbbaot View Post
    Do not agree that Personality Disorder is up to nature. You are not born a sociopath. This is a product of your environment. Cindy has the same traits as Casey. Cindy has transferred her issues to Casey by raising her to be the way she is.
    Then how do you explain sociopaths that have siblings who are "normal", that were raised in same environment and by the same parents?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tbbaot View Post
    No way...George displays the classic hen-pecked husband traits. Notice who always does the talking when they are together in front of the media or the crazy protestors. George was also the one who filed or divorce a few years ago. Cindy wears the pants in that family. Casey got her lying and manipulation traits from Cindy.
    There was also a domestic altercation service call in Dec, 2004 where Cindy was the defendant and George was the plaintiff.

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