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  1. #1
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    Finding JonBenet's Body

    I've got some questions surrounding the "finding" of JonBenet's body that morning. Perhaps some have been discussed and answered and I've missed them, but perhaps not.

    First - In Cyril Wecht's book "Who Killed JonBenet Ramsey" he states that it wasn't just John Ramsey and Fleet White who went on that infamous search of the basement at 1:00pm that day - but that John Fernie accompanied them as well. Is this just a mistake? Did he or didn't he? ST does not mention Fernie in his account.

    Secondly - And this one I think is very important. WHY did John Ramsey choose to PICK UP his obviously stiff and dead daughter's body and bring her upstairs? I do not think that this is the "natural" response. She was not only obviously dead - but had an "odor of decay" about her as well.
    The average person in this country KNOWS that you do NOT disturb a dead body and that it is in your best interest not to do so. (to preserve evidence)
    I think it is very, very ODD that John Ramsey immediately picked her up to bring her upstairs - rather than calling Det. Arndt down there to the scene.
    Not only that, but John KNEW Patsy was upstairs and rather than putting some protective SPACE between her and JonBenet's dead body - he was rushing it by bringing her upstairs. And then he asks the playing-dumb question of Arndt: "Is she dead?" DUH!!!!! (When Arndt said "yes" - John Ramsey then made the interesting comment that "it must be an inside job.")

    And thirdly - Why did Fleet White run upstairs and grab a phone to dial 911 - but then HANG UP and "yell" for someone to do it??? I've never understood that. Why didn't HE do it? He had the phone right there in his hand?
    He even punched in a few numbers and then hung up the phone and yelled for someone to "call an ambulance." What was THAT all about?

    Thanks,
    ~Angel~
    This post is my opinion.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by K777angel
    The average person in this country KNOWS that you do NOT disturb a dead body and that it is in your best interest not to do so. (to preserve evidence)
    The average parent also knows (or ought to) that you do not pick up a live child, either, because if you have come across the scene of an injury you have not personally witnessed, you do not know if your child has a broken neck or spine. Moving your child may be the actual cause of that child becoming paralyzed. This is why EMTs come equipped with backboards and neck collars to immobilize the victim; a person's entire life may be at risk if one wrong movement causes a spinal nerve to be sliced clean through. If John received any training at all in emergency medicine (and he has inferred such through his claim that he gave her CPR), then he also was told in no uncertain terms to not move the victim he was tending to, even if (or especially if) the victim is his flesh and blood.

    If John is innocent, and his movement of JonBenet was the act of a panicked father, then in that moment he betrayed the fact that he is a selfish, selfish man who valued giving in to his impulses more than taking care of his daughter. And if John is guilty, his movement of JonBenet was the act of a selfish, selfish man who valued giving in to some unconfessed impulse more than taking care of his daughter. Either way, it is clear beyond all doubt that John moved JonBenet for one reason and one reason only; he did not give a damn about her.
    "That is my theory, it is mine, and belongs to me and I own it, and what it is too." -- Anne Elk

  3. #3
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    I think John's actions with the body after following Arndt's dictate are an indication that he found the body earlier.

    Fleet's actions are the result of him being Fleet White.

  4. #4
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    [QUOTE=why_nutt]The average parent also knows (or ought to) that you do not pick up a live child, either, because if you have come across the scene of an injury you have not personally witnessed, you do not know if your child has a broken neck or spine. Moving your child may be the actual cause of that child becoming paralyzed.

    That is a good point Why_nutt. Particularly given the fact that John acted as if he "didn't know" that JonBenet was dead or not. (Which is such a joke)
    If he didn't know if she was dead or not - that leaves "injured" as the only other alternative.

    It is just inconceivable that he wouldn't have KNOWN she was dead.
    She was stiff as a board, lips blue, arms STUCK above her head for Pete's sake!
    He was pretending IMO.
    And perhaps by bringing body UP and OUT of the wine cellar room - he was subconsciously trying to put distance away from where she was killed and all that happened right there.
    Still trying to "control" the crime scene.

    I just don't beleive your natural response in that situation would be to PICK UP her dead body. One that was completely stiff and at that point was smelling bad to boot.
    I think you would holler for help to come TO the body.
    This post is my opinion.

  5. #5
    I give John a pass on this one. It's easy to write what one would do in a panic situation, but what you would actually do might be entirely different. I don't think this necessarily proves or disproves anything.

  6. #6
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    I agree with Misty. Although I think someone in the Ramsey camp did it, I don't think that this behavior leans one way or the other. If I found my child's body, even if she were obviously dead, I would scoop her up and hold her close and run her upstairs to see if anything could be done for her. An irrational act, I know, but I don't think that I'd be able to stop myself from picking up her little body and holding it to me.

    I think I"d even utter the words "Is she dead?" even if the answer was obvious. Perhaps someone might say the words I'd want to hear - perhaps my eyes really weren't seeing what they saw.

    I don't know - I think this one is a "neutral" as far as a guilty/not guilty indicator.

    Peggy

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrotherMoon
    I think John's actions with the body after following Arndt's dictate are an indication that he found the body earlier.

    BrotherMoon,

    I agree. John Ramsey knew exactly where the body was because HE had obviously moved it there several hours earlier. John admits he had been in the basement by himself that morning, even though Arndt had told everyone to stay clustered in the sunroom area. It appears John moved JonBenet from a relatively hidden area to the open area in the wine cellar so she would be easier to find.

    IMO that's why Fleet White didn't see the body at about 6:15 A.M. when he looked into the room, but the body was in plain sight at 1:05 P.M. when John looked into the room. Incidentally, John didn't know that Fleet had already looked into the wine cellar earlier that morning. Fleet insists he would have seen the body if it had been there, and that's why he's convinced a Ramsey killed JonBenet -- he knows John moved the body.

    JMO

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCrab
    BrotherMoon,

    I agree. John Ramsey knew exactly where the body was because HE had obviously moved it there several hours earlier. John admits he had been in the basement by himself that morning, even though Arndt had told everyone to stay clustered in the sunroom area. It appears John moved JonBenet from a relatively hidden area to the open area in the wine cellar so she would be easier to find.

    IMO that's why Fleet White didn't see the body at about 6:15 A.M. when he looked into the room, but the body was in plain sight at 1:05 P.M. when John looked into the room. Incidentally, John didn't know that Fleet had already looked into the wine cellar earlier that morning. Fleet insists he would have seen the body if it had been there, and that's why he's convinced a Ramsey killed JonBenet -- he knows John moved the body.

    JMO
    This is the mystery in the mystery. I'm not so sure John moved the body to the small room, I rather think it fits with the mythic themes; entombment. But just what John did and when he did it is probably the thing that complicated matters beyond hope of clarity without a confession.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCrab
    BrotherMoon,

    I agree. John Ramsey knew exactly where the body was because HE had obviously moved it there several hours earlier. John admits he had been in the basement by himself that morning, even though Arndt had told everyone to stay clustered in the sunroom area. It appears John moved JonBenet from a relatively hidden area to the open area in the wine cellar so she would be easier to find.

    IMO that's why Fleet White didn't see the body at about 6:15 A.M. when he looked into the room, but the body was in plain sight at 1:05 P.M. when John looked into the room. Incidentally, John didn't know that Fleet had already looked into the wine cellar earlier that morning. Fleet insists he would have seen the body if it had been there, and that's why he's convinced a Ramsey killed JonBenet -- he knows John moved the body.

    JMO
    To add to your point Bluecrab, Det. Arndt said that after John Ramsey came
    up from his "time" in the basement ealier in the morning - he was more visibly upset. From Steve Thomas' book:
    "Detective Arndt could not account for John Ramsey until about noon.
    She found him reading some correspondence, and she incorrectly assumed
    he had stepped out to get his mail. She was unaware that the house did
    not have an exterior mail box and that the mail, came in through a front
    door slot. Ramsey had been out of contact for over an hour. In coming
    months, we realized that the time lapse would have allowed Ramsey plenty
    of time to roam his house.
    Arndt noted a marked change in Ramsey's attitude when she saw him
    again. Whereas he had been calm and collected earlier, he now sat alone
    in the dining room, preoccupied in thought, his leg bouncing nervously."
    This post is my opinion.

  10. #10
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    "I agree with Misty. Although I think someone in the Ramsey camp did it, I don't think that this behavior leans one way or the other. If I found my child's body, even if she were obviously dead, I would scoop her up and hold her close and run her upstairs to see if anything could be done for her. An irrational act, I know, but I don't think that I'd be able to stop myself from picking up her little body and holding it to me."

    The difference here between your scooping her up, holding her close, and running up those stairs with her is the fact that John didn't scoop her up and hold her close. He went up the stairs with her held out in front of him. He picked her up and didn't hold her close. She was stiff as a doll and held out away from him. Even asking the question, "Is she dead?" is totally rediculous to me. His denying the fact that she was dead was one thing, but him asking that question is way out there for me.
    This is only my personal opinion.


  11. #11
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    less0305 is offline The face is familiar, but I can't quite remember my name!
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    The Fleet White thing with the 911 call and hanging up sounds a LOT like me when I found my mother-in-law dead in her apartment. When I arrived to visit her on Saturday like I always did, some of her neighbors met me and said they had not seen her in a couple of days. I asked them to watch my daughter while I went into the apartment (her paper from the day before was still outside...so I had a gut feeling it wasn't going to be good). Anyway, when I went in and found that she was lying on the floor and obviously either unconcious or dead, I ran back to the door and opened it, yelling for the neighbors to call 911...then I marched right over to my mom-in-law's phone and dialed 911 myself. So two 911 calls went into the 911 center. Why I told someone in the hall to call 911 is beyond me...I just panicked and my actions in those first few minutes weren't really thought out well.
    It's my own two cents. You don't have to read or like it.

  12. #12
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    Originally posted by K777angel
    In Cyril Wecht's book "Who Killed JonBenet Ramsey" he states that it wasn't just John Ramsey and Fleet White who went on that infamous search of the basement at 1:00pm that day - but that John Fernie accompanied them as well. Is this just a mistake? Did he or didn't he? ST does not mention Fernie in his account.
    I recall reading somewhere that Fernie searched the upstairs while John and Fleet searched the basement.

    I find nothing odd about Fleet starting to phone for an ambulance and then hanging up and yelling for someone else to do it instead. At the time he obviously thought JonBenet was still alive. Maybe he thought that every second counted in trying to save her life and that he could be of more assistance helping to revive her or administering first aid.

    As for John carrying JonBenet's body up the stairs, I think he was simply trying to be dramatic. Who knows...maybe he has a bit of Drama Queen in him too.

  13. #13
    What I do find interesting is that the Ramseys were very carefull not to touch the ransom note but when it came to JonBenet they were all over her.

    GUILTY!

    IMO
    ...We have said to ourselves, look, there is never going to be a victory in this, there is no victory...John Ramsey: 6/24/98

  14. #14
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    I still don't get the odor of decay remark. My stepfather died on a Saturday night. I found his body on Monday morning. There was no odor of decay. The heat was set at 75 degrees. How could there be an odor of decay after only approximately 12 or so hours? I doubt that small room in the basement was overly warm in December. Something smells in this case, but it wasn't JonBenet.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy
    As for John carrying JonBenet's body up the stairs, I think he was simply trying to be dramatic. Who knows...maybe he has a bit of Drama Queen in him too.
    Yes, I think so, Ivy. John Ramsey, Drama Queen... lol. IMO this is something we've learned about this guy over the years. He's a con artist. IMCPO, of course.

    Quote Originally Posted by Toltec
    What I do find interesting is that the Ramseys were very carefull not to touch the ransom note but when it came to JonBenet they were all over her.
    Excellent observation, Toltec. While they were at it, they should've also brought the duct tape up from the basement. Maybe then they could've explained Patsy's fibers on the tape.
    The intruder is innocent! JMO

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