Testimonies 10/16/08

I want to post what testimony I heard and what notes I took. Also, I am adding in my posts what I witnessed inside and outside the courthouse.

Misc Information about court hearing on Oct 16, 2008


-Courtroom was close to full, approx 60-70 people head count.
-Our row was the only one that had room to seat the public. Of course the front row, but that was for plaintiffs.
-Microphone not working well at all, so some testimony was not heard well.
-Laptops allowed inside, but no transmittal allowed.
-Judge stopped once and called off the stand to announce someone had done a transmittal, would be held in contempt of court.
-One person in the courtroom was told not to make another gesture, I think it was a head movement, she had been nodding.
-One security inside watching members of the courtroom, 2 doors to halls with windows, had wake county sheriff watching, sometimes entering behind media. I think they were reminding media they were watching.
-Plaintiff and defendant had 3 attorneys. Blum was not present, only Kurtz.
-BC father was present. They had others with them, but since we don't know who is who because they have not had media focused on them and we do know NC family and friends via media it is hard to know who was who.
-Judge Sasser very into the case, never stopped taking notes.
-Stubbs asked the judge to review video with BC lied about last name of Jennifer. At the time Sasser said it would be hard to believe BC couldn't remember her last name when it was more than a casual acquaintance. Stubbs told because of time constraints Jennifer could not be here since she only got contacted on the 11th? Sasser ruled JCB affidavit would not be allowed after reviewing BC deposition.
-JA and HP were not subpoenaed to court.
-It appeared JA dad was with her as well as husband with her. Not positive, but appeared to be.
-Outside courtroom, tv camera media was swarming and stayed entire time.
-SG and I hid behind nooks and crannies to not get caught on the camera.
-SG & I had an 'OH CHIT' moment, what do we do now? After lunch when SG and I had to catch an elevator, we jumped on one going down to P floor, only then to ride up to 8th knowing it would be quickest for us to get an elevator. Well, to our surprise Wade Smith and NC family decided to cram on the elevator after us. Then we had to make a game plan to head in the direction of the DA's office or the bathroom (again) and not the courtroom. Cram is the only word because in Wake County courthouse it is the way you can ride up. In other words, MEDIA, caught you at the elevators, and coming & going out of the courtroom.
-While eating SG & I saw Blum pass outside where we were…he never was in the courtroom.

Mr. Rentz, 1st witness.

**BC would not look up at while Mr or Mrs. Rentz were on the stand. He would look at the other witnesses.
Only spoke to NC by cell because thoughts of BC monitoring phone calls
NC called tearful and angry when BC cut her off accounts and CC.
Supported statement BC had intentions of moving also to Toronto
Aware HP lent $ to NC.
NC was very tearful at the Charlotte airport when it came time to leave back to Canada after the HH trip.
5:53 Monday July 7th, NC called and left voice message to her parents. It was played in court. All of NC friends began crying at the sound of her voice. She expressed the condition of the home when she got back to being a mess as her friends had stated.
BC never contacted Katie for her birthday in any manner….email, phone, present, etc.
BC murdered Nancy I feel….motivation and access
Motive=money

Cross exam
Mr Rentz agreed.....
Matter of opinion to what clean is
No violence towards NC
Witnessed arguments that is normal in marriage
Never heard BC threaten suicide
$30K charged by NC in 2007
Understood BC take home per month was $5400
Coopers provided $
NC borrowed several times for home issues, fence, bath leaks, ceiling repairs, etc
Mr. Rentz admitted he was tightening the purse strings on NC.
Sandlin….If you were going to tighten the purse strings, don't you think its fair to say BC needed to do it also?
Rentz…Yes, reasonable to say.

When Rentz was asked about the birthday party and how NO ONE notified BC about it…the look and twisting of his mouth you knew what he was thinking….BUT I was so wrong in his response
He said, GOOD MORNING AMERICA KNEW! The courtroom burst out in laughter.

2nd witness, Krister Lister

Emotional in the beginning, but got better when the testimony went moved to the girls and away from NC.
NC would finish my sentences; she was my soul mate, my everything.
We spoke 3-5x a week.
NC had contacts she had made for a job in Canada.
She was scared for NC, she knew she was trapped.
Krista called her dad while he was on vacation, begging him to come home from the trip to go get Nancy-she needed him.
While in HH, Nancy told her the marriage was over.
Motive was reason for murder, I believe he murdered Nancy.
BC never cleans home or never saw him do laundry. Has visited 5x since beginning of 2007, including March 08 for 5 days.

Krista told Bella always asks...
1-why mommy had to leave her?
2-does mommy still love me?
3-why do I have to speak to daddy, mommy's not there?
4-can mommy see me?

I have no children and prepared for long term.
Jim has flexible hours and can work from home.
Bella is in ballet and gymnastics.
Dog is with friends in Niagara Falls, 8yrs old, St Bernard & Border Collie mix.
I would like to change to phone from webcam because girls are having difficulties with webcam.
When BC speaks to them he asks questions like…where are the dogs? Have you been outside? Etc

Cross….

Girls have NOT seen BC at all this week while in town. It was not in the court order.
NC affair occurred in her 1st year of marriage.
Brett Wilson is old boyfriend-NC was talking to him and had plans on meeting him upon arrival to Canada.
BC was never inappropriate to girls.
NC had $700 for trip.
Sandlin…When do you think he should get the girls back?
Krista….IMO he should never get the girls back…he'll be in JAIL!

Dr. Hilkey testimony....

Both psychologist's were low speaking and tended to turn to the judge everytime they answered a question so she would understand all the facts they were stating. It was hard to hear many of the explainations they gave.

These 3 tests were done plus a few more. These were the ones I could hear since the attorneys would ask specific questions related to these.

Millon™ Clinical Multiaxial Inventory
Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory
Personality Measures

Hilkey said BC was....
-a complex man in a complex situation
-IQ was superior, 99% for IQ only 1% rated higher
-anxious
-harbors anger internal, can be expressed, directed to family members
-can complete tasks
-detached presence
-direct to point
-tunnel visioned
-can use poor judgement
-not suicidal
-arrogant
-narcissistic (Hilkey stated BC thinks he is superior to others)

BC does have reason to be angry
The affidavit by JWB confirmed narcissistic behavior-supported assessment


Cross exam-extremely defensive on scale
-you can expect BC to become more defensive with all this testing, depositions, court situation.
-paranoia, BC feels plotted against
-tests at different times will have different #'s
-BC type of family is to be considered. Dad has PHD in Organic Chemisty, has a high achieving family, they have high expectations.
-personal styles by family they come from they conform to
-the score differences between the 2 Drs was anxiety he explained.
-he accepted the fact his was done for the plaintiff's to cause BC to be more anxious

Ghould's testimony...defendent witness

Questions given by Sandlin to Dr Ghould
1-Does BC display mental abnormalities? None
2-Any risks to parent children? Not at risk
3-Flight risk? No risk for child abduction
4-Atypical emotion? No. Due to death of wife this is typical response.

BC emotional experiences-withdraw, not overly expressive with emotion
His behavior is consistant behavior now as prior to NC death

In explaining scores he explains state vs traite.
State=short term, currently
Traite=long term

BC state=showing fustration
BC state high, traite low
Dr Ghould explains he has never seen this before. It is total opposite. It always has traite as long term and the higher number, but BC is flipped.

On BC rebuttal affidavit Dr Ghould asked for specific items to back what BC put on his affidavit. BC produced all of it. Cell bills, water bill dates, cc bills, etc.

Is there any reason BC shouldn't get his children? Nothing on the testing I did shows he shouldn't.

Wade Smith cross Ghould..

Only SH would speak to you? Yes, he felt compelled to speak even after he found out about the affair of his wife and BC. He is still angry about it.
SH did say BC will never be the father he is.
SH stated BC was shocked about NC death.
SH says BC shows no emotion.
SH called BC + NC are in a marital contract.

Did you interview NC family? Didn't feel like NC family interview would be helpful with exam-they are too biased.

This was very simple testimony, much not heard, and for some reason Wade Smith didn't push too many questions.

JA 4th witness
Just a few things to add since we have seen JA affidavit and it was all she was allowed to testify to.
The 911 tape we all heard in public is edited.
BC went to look for Carey at her job.
I believe BC murdered Nancy. Why do you think that? Motive.

Sandlin jumped up objecting to this. I am agasp your Honor you are allowing how much hearsay is allowed in this courtroom. This is all speculation!

Sasser allowed it to be said and not stricken since it was in the affidavit and wanted to see where it was headed.

Cross exam

JA calendar was presented by Sandlin...
JA had NC name to paint the 7th, 8th.
Nothing on calendar to paint on the 12th.
On the 13th JA was to help NC organize her home.

Sandlin drilled her about how she had the plans for the 13th on the calendar, but not the 12th. JA said she had arranged the painting on the 11th to paint the 12th and failed to put it on the calendar.

JA saw tension between NC & BC, but no arguing.
On Wedn. the 9th...NC informed JA she would listen to BC and not rock the boat.

Mrs Rentz 7th witness

Mrs Rentz was my toughest to hear. She is a quiet spoken women who is clearly showing the pain she is feeling no matter where she is, in the courtroom or outside of it. Every moment I was around her, elevator, restroom or hall she had her head hung. She would try to smile, but it was tough for her.

Stubbs -Tell us aboout NC and what we need to know about her.
DR-I LOVE HER DESPORATELY and begins to cry. I'm sorry DR she says because she is crying.
Stubbs-thats alright we understand.
DR-we shared the love for cooking. She was most like me

This is all I got from that portion because her voice is so soft she is trying to compose herself also.

Stubbs-tell us about the last day you were with NC
DR-we had spent the night in Charlotte on Sat (Sheraton?), got up and went to brunch. We did some shopping. Then we all gathered to go to the airport. NC went with us. She had followe us from HH to Charlotte to see us off.
At the airport Nancy began to cry hard when we had to leave. She was repeating I want to go with you, I want to come, but I can't because of the passports. It was tough leaving her like that. It was like pleading, begging us not to go.

By this time Mrs. Rentz was trying to collect herself, but it was most hard for her as well as us listening to it.

I have no notes on Sandlin cross. I don't know if I was trying to compose myself of Sandlin had nothing to say. This part is a blur for me.

Mt3K - thanks for your notes and sharing the info.

raisincharlie said:

Mt3K - thanks for your notes and sharing the info.

Click to expand...

Hear hear! :clap:

I am absolutely loving it - Thank you!

Yes, it is wonderful to have this here to refer to!! Many thanks!

I have 3 questions for you MT3K or SG.

I know you both believe he is 100% guilty. Ignoring your feelings and what we have heard prior to the hearing, was there any evidence presented at the hearing that:

1. Would make a person have a reasonable belief that he killed her? So someone sitting in the courtroom that had never heard of this case, would they leave with a rational and reasonable believe that BC murdered NC.

2. Would show that his daughters would be in danger in his care, or that he was an unfit parent.

And lastly, given just what you heard in the courtroom on Thursday (again, try ignoring your bias going into Thursday that you believe him to be 100% guilty), should BC be given custody of his 2 kids.


I'm honestly looking for your opinions because I wasn't there. This isn't about whether your are right or wrong...I just want your opinion of these questions based solely on the testimony given Thursday.

Once I realized how lengthy my posts were I decided this was best for reference. I am trying to get a mod to remove my posts on 'custody hearing' since it won't let me remove them.

Hopefully SG will add what she remembers that I might have missed.

You're all welcome, I am happy I was able to attend as well as have SG join me.

ncsu95 said:

I have 3 questions for you MT3K or SG.

I know you both believe he is 100% guilty. Ignoring your feelings and what we have heard prior to the hearing, was there any evidence presented at the hearing that:

1. Would make a person have a reasonable belief that he killed her? So someone sitting in the courtroom that had never heard of this case, would they leave with a rational and reasonable believe that BC murdered NC.

2. Would show that his daughters would be in danger in his care, or that he was an unfit parent.

And lastly, given just what you heard in the courtroom on Thursday (again, try ignoring your bias going into Thursday that you believe him to be 100% guilty), should BC be given custody of his 2 kids.


I'm honestly looking for your opinions because I wasn't there. This isn't about whether your are right or wrong...I just want your opinion of these questions based solely on the testimony given Thursday.

Click to expand...

I promise to get back to you on this...
I want to finish with the few witnesses I have notes on. They are short so it won't be long and I will be happy to discuss my feelings on this.

Jim Lister…3rd witness
Has no children, but prepared for long term obligation of parenting.
Would like to ask the court to consider phone conversation instead of webcam.
The girls have a tough time sitting still for 15 minutes.
The girl's behavior was different before and after the webcam visit. Very hard to settle them down before and then afterwards.
At times it goes over 15 minutes because of the time it takes for the girls to settle down to visit with BC via webcam.
Video submitted to court is only some of the webcam visits, not all.
Can work at home, work is flexible and can adjust accordingly as needed
JL explained that NC and girls would be moving in with them upon arrival to Canada.
They were preparing for this to occur.
They had a room in the basement that NC could use as her bedroom or take the master bdr upstairs to be close to the girls. It was going to be her decision upon arrival. He was fine with what choice she made.


Cross exam

JL acknowledges he attended the visits between BC and his girl's, as well as the webcam visits.
Sandlin…what occurs during the webcam visits between BC and the girl's?
JL…they play tic, tac, toe
BC reads them stories
They color pictures
Sandlin..have you given or sent any of this to BC from his girl's
JL…No
Sandlin…why not?
JL…I just haven't
Sandlin…so your telling me you don't think he should have them or want them, what is it?
JL…I really don't know why. I just haven't done it.
Sandlin..do the girl's love their dad in your opinion
JL..yes

JL then answers about where he and BC had the girl's on their visitation time, which has been posted.

Somewhere at the end Sandlin asked about the girl's receiving anything from BC. I think, but not positive his answer was the girls have received 2 packages from him. The reason I am unsure is because I didn't hear her ask what was in the packages or dates received. I thought she would have elaborated on this…but didn't. Help me out SG...is this where you told me you didn't understand it either?

Susan Crook…#5 witness

Has her Masters in Psychology
Met NC thru HP.
(IIRC, but not positive…. SC got put on bed rest for a pregnancy right after she met NC so little contact, but it picked back up in the Spring of 08)
She was feeling there were signs of power control issues, and had knowledge of marital problems, so she felt the need to contact Interact when HP called to tell her about NC water being cut off.
Was beginning to get concerned for NC safety

Cross..

Tried to establish SC had no 1st hand knowledge because she only met BC 1x

Great job, Mom! This is a wonderful recap!!

I wish their audio system was working because it was hard for me to hear some of the testimony. It's good to read it over and get my memory refreshed.

I have 3 questions for you MT3K or SG.

I know you both believe he is 100% guilty. Ignoring your feelings and what we have heard prior to the hearing, was there any evidence presented at the hearing that:

1. Would make a person have a reasonable belief that he killed her? So someone sitting in the courtroom that had never heard of this case, would they leave with a rational and reasonable believe that BC murdered NC.

2. Would show that his daughters would be in danger in his care, or that he was an unfit parent.

And lastly, given just what you heard in the courtroom on Thursday (again, try ignoring your bias going into Thursday that you believe him to be 100% guilty), should BC be given custody of his 2 kids.

Click to expand...

If you had no prior knowledge of the case, AND you had heard nothing before the hearing, AND you were sitting in the hearing, you would also not have seen or read any of the affidavits either or watched the video depos for 7 hrs, etc, etc. The hearing was merely a snippet of the total amount of evidence submitted to the court--as I said yesterday or the day before, the bulk of the information is contained in the written documents and videos and audio (911 calls).

So based on seeing a very small subset of the case you

1. would not have seen much evidence related to the criminal investigation (since Daniels did not testify) and thus nothing was presented to allow you to conclude BC murdered his wife (other than the opinions & feelings of the plaintiff witnesses);

2. you would have not seen any evidence that BC was an unfit or abusive parent, and

3. you would conclude that based only on what you saw in the hearing (which was the constraint you requested we limit ourselves to) he should get his kids back.

Hannah P…#6 witness

NC and I together almost everyday. Two of HP children same ages as Bella and Katie.
2 notes found. (1) to do list, which was will, insurance, Kelly bluebook, cancel accts (2) each child listed with items to remember, food, color
I was concerned and told NC this was crazy after I saw the lists.
I told her, "you never know what a crazy person will do."
Following Feb 26th I paid for everything when with NC. Out to eat, or admission for the girls, etc.
I was told NC went jogging between 6:30-7am, not 7am specific
I told BC to go thru NC phone to find CC phone #, he called back to say the cell phone was locked

I feel BC killed NC because…..
He wouldn't look anyone in the eye
He didn't attend one service for his wife
The main reason is NC diamond necklace…she has one very similar to mine (HP holds hers up), she never took it off. She jogged in it and it wasn't found on her.
If NC was attacked while jogging she would fight like HELL (HP got stern with this remark) if she was attacked, I am positive.
My husband would be doing everything to find me

On 13th or 14th, (HP changed her date so I am unsure of which date)…she stated she went over to get the girls at BC. He wouldn't let Bella go, he had to go to the store and wanted her with him. He was to call HP when he got back. He never called. She went back later and there sat BC with 3 detectives, and Bella dazed out with the TV. She felt BC should have called while this was occurring and not have Bella present. Bella was also very hungry when she got her.

Cross exam

MM and CD comments to NC were discussed. HP was explicit about this and what was said. This was in the media I believe.
Yes, only gut feeling BC murdered NC
No 1st hand suicidal statement seen.
No, NC never had her necklace cleaned. Always had it on, even when jogging.

SleuthyGal said:

If you had no prior knowledge of the case, AND you had heard nothing before the hearing, AND you were sitting in the hearing, you would also not have seen or read any of the affidavits either or watched the video depos for 7 hrs, etc, etc. The hearing was merely a snippet of the total amount of evidence submitted to the court--as I said yesterday or the day before, the bulk of the information is contained in the written documents and videos and audio (911 calls).

So based on seeing a very small subset of the case you

1. would not have seen much evidence related to the criminal investigation (since Daniels did not testify) and thus nothing was presented to allow you to conclude BC murdered his wife (other than the opinions & feelings of the plaintiff witnesses);

2. you would have not seen any evidence that BC was an unfit or abusive parent, and

3. you would conclude that based only on what you saw in the hearing (which was the constraint you requested we limit ourselves to) he should get his kids back.

Click to expand...

Fair enough. Without the constraints I put on, would your answer to questions 2 & 3 change?