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  1. #691
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    Very, very potent, angelfire...


  2. #692
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    Quote Originally Posted by qaws View Post
    I'm undecided on the bagging timeline - but I am convinced it either happened soon after death, or after about 36+ hours - or twice - the body would go through rigor mortis in that time frame, and it would not be easy to stuff it in a bag. If the bagging happened days after death, I think it was because she finally decided to deal with "the problem" and was also able to move the body into a bag.

    If she bagged the body before rigor mortis, the bag may have broken as the body shifted. Another one may have been used later when possible.

    FYI, rigor mortis starts about 3 hours after death, and progresses. In non-extreme temps, the general timeline is that it peaks between 12 and 36 hours, and at 36 hours it starts to release. Gone by 72 hours.

    Heat speeds up the timeline, cold slows it down.

    Not sure how this might not apply to small children, but there may be differences because of the smaller mass. Temp could play a bigger role.

    ---

    Looked up more on child rigor, and my theory could be cr*p - "Many infant and child corpses will not exhibit perceptible rigor mortis. This decreased perceptible stiffness may be due to their smaller muscle mass."
    I saw this article on child rigor, but other articles seem to contradict, showing rigor can and does occur even in infancy...

    JWG has done some really fantastic research on why he thinks DOD is 6/16...
    Expanding on that......I've outlined in other posts why the body farm report suggests that she was probably wrapped in something when she was first put in the trunk..she borrows the shovel about 24-48 hours later, let's say the 17th, possibly sets body in yard, but doesn't actually bury it there.(another reason why I think the body was already in the garbage bag...it looks a whole lot less suspicous to your neighbor to see a garbage bag in the yard than it does a dead child...she may be dumb, but I dont think she's THAT dumb)...so why the aborted attempt then?...it made sense to me when I stopped to think about rigor. If Caylee was placed in the trunk soon after her death, as I suspect, rigor had not yet set in...When KC borrows the shovel a few days later, she then goes to the car to remove the body to bury it...not realizing until she lifts the stiff body that it is now in the rigor phase....which makes it a lot harder to carry around unnoticed, and a lot harder to bury....KC realizes what's going on...wouldn't suprise me if there are unreleased google searches from that week for rigor mortis...she tries again the 18th(why she backs her car in again), but nope, still rigor...3rd time she tries, 19th or 20th rigor is gone, and because of that, there is now fluid in the bag (from 2.6 days decomp - just like body farm says) which she doesn't expect because it wasn't there before...which leaks out of the bag as she attempts to transfer Caylee to her resting place...


  3. #693
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    Quote Originally Posted by Irish_Eyes View Post
    Cross posted on the sticky thread for 6/16...

    Sorry if someone has noticed this already, but if so, I haven't seen it. On the calendar thread, it shows the "flurry of calls" on 6/16 after 4pm...for some reason, I couldn't quote it to post it here. I have heard people suggest that either these were panicky "what do I do?" calls, or that they were KC's way of making sure GA and CA were not quite on their way home yet and that the coast was clear. Here's what I noticed today...
    The calls begin around 4:10...the last one, to GA is at 4:18....these still ping near A's house until the 4:18 somewhere on Chickasaw trail. By the 4:25 ping, she is pinging near AL's....Looking at the other times she has made this trek, I think it's about a 15 min drive from TL to CA/GA. It could even be longer, because the pings would still show at the A's even up to a few miles away, and the pings would show AL's up to a few miles before she arrived, and vice versa, correct??? But being conservative, let's say it's a fifteen minute drive...this means that when the first call in the flurry started, she was likely pulling out of her driveway to be pinging near AL at 4:25...

    That means before 4:10 she's not only had to kill Caylee (if you go with that theory as I do), she's also had to place her in the trunk, get her purse, keys, laptop, cellphone, maybe change clothes and/or pack a bag...whether this all took her two minutes, or ten, etc., I now have a harder time seeing these as "cry for help" calls...because if she did all of these things after the calls, there is no way she is pinging near AL's at 4:25...and it doesn't make sense to think she said "I need help!" then went and did all these things, put Caylee in the car and then said, well, all that's done...guess I'll call for help now...calling for help is an urgent, immediate action...Anyone agree?
    I agree. I don't there were any cries for help for an accident at all. The Anthony's are the ones who claimed that Casey would call them to try and figure out where they were, and that is very convenient for them to come up with this excuse. I think Casey was threatening something, demanding something, or claiming an attack and kidnap of Caylee in those flurries of calls.


  4. #694
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    Nagging in the back of my mind is the Greta walk through and C & G dismissing the fact that they had recently dug up and replanted a palm. That would successfully cover/explain a patch of the garden that had recently been dug. That could be a clue that KC at least made an attempt to dig a hole. I imagine she was too lazy to get very far, so never actually buried Caylee. It could also be a an example of blatant obfuscation by C & G?
    Do not go gentle into that good night.
    _________ Rage, rage against the dying of the light


  5. #695
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    So, possible ways that Caylee, bless her, may have died:
    1) drowning
    2) overdose
    3) chloroform
    4) beaten to death
    5) heat exhaustion in the back of the car/trunk
    6) poisoning from ingesting household chmicals
    7) shaken to death
    8) strangulation/suffocation
    9)....more?

    so, my question is - why the duct tape around her mouth - and all around the back of her head??? What purpose would that have served is she were already dead???


  6. #696
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    Quote Originally Posted by dearmont View Post
    So, possible ways that Caylee, bless her, may have died:
    1) drowning
    2) overdose
    3) chloroform
    4) beaten to death
    5) heat exhaustion in the back of the car/trunk
    6) poisoning from ingesting household chmicals
    7) shaken to death
    8) strangulation/suffocation
    9)....more?

    so, my question is - why the duct tape around her mouth - and all around the back of her head??? What purpose would that have served is she were already dead???
    JMO, but I don't think she was already dead. I think she was put to sleep with the chloroform and the duct tape was to smother her. If it was to just keep her quiet you wouldn't put it all around the head. She was making sure she was dead. If it was to just put her to sleep and then keep her quiet if she woke, then Caylee may have vomited and chocked on it and that is also a possibility. But I think KC was in a fit of anger, she wanted to computer time, she had a bad fight with her mother the night before and she just snapped.

    JMO


  7. #697
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    Quote Originally Posted by Irish_Eyes View Post
    Cross posted on the sticky thread for 6/16...

    Sorry if someone has noticed this already, but if so, I haven't seen it. On the calendar thread, it shows the "flurry of calls" on 6/16 after 4pm...for some reason, I couldn't quote it to post it here. I have heard people suggest that either these were panicky "what do I do?" calls, or that they were KC's way of making sure GA and CA were not quite on their way home yet and that the coast was clear. Here's what I noticed today...
    The calls begin around 4:10...the last one, to GA is at 4:18....these still ping near A's house until the 4:18 somewhere on Chickasaw trail. By the 4:25 ping, she is pinging near AL's....Looking at the other times she has made this trek, I think it's about a 15 min drive from TL to CA/GA. It could even be longer, because the pings would still show at the A's even up to a few miles away, and the pings would show AL's up to a few miles before she arrived, and vice versa, correct??? But being conservative, let's say it's a fifteen minute drive...this means that when the first call in the flurry started, she was likely pulling out of her driveway to be pinging near AL at 4:25...

    That means before 4:10 she's not only had to kill Caylee (if you go with that theory as I do), she's also had to place her in the trunk, get her purse, keys, laptop, cellphone, maybe change clothes and/or pack a bag...whether this all took her two minutes, or ten, etc., I now have a harder time seeing these as "cry for help" calls...because if she did all of these things after the calls, there is no way she is pinging near AL's at 4:25...and it doesn't make sense to think she said "I need help!" then went and did all these things, put Caylee in the car and then said, well, all that's done...guess I'll call for help now...calling for help is an urgent, immediate action...Anyone agree?

    The flurry of phone calls to George and Cindy...I don't believe was due to hysteria that Caylee accidentally died. I just don't see this as an accident with her intial thoughts to call her parents. Phoning them to find out where they were makes more sense only because she left the day before to go on her "mini vacation w Caylee"...so for her to be back home so soon (and she without Caylee) I believe the calls were to "check on George and Cindy's whereabouts" in case they got home soon and they would ask "Where is Caylee?" This would give her time to gather needed tools that she obviously couldn't have taken when her dad saw her leaving the day before.

    I really think this was all premeditated due to the broken neck search, the missing children search and the duct tape around the mouth. Hence is why I have a problem with the "accidental overdose".

    I believe she used the choloroform to put her to sleep and then to duct tape to suffocate her. This way she wouldnt have to watch her struggle for breath. Then put her in the trunk and off she went. I have a hard time believing she was covering an accidental death. Especially with all the web searching prior.

    I think she premeditated it all...clear to planning on what day she would do it when her parents would not be home. The "mini vacation" was nothing more than a ruse to perhaps buy time for her plan to transpire with the babysitter story. I think Casey planned the entire way she would be "rid" of Caylee...clear to the nanny story. The only part I believe she wasn't too keen on planning....was what to do with the body afterwards. Seems to be a flurry of actions after that which were carelessly spontaneous. From gasoline to borrowing shovels to just keeping her in the trunk.

    So how many days did she keep Caylee in that trunk? I would imagine in the Florida heat it would only take a few days before the smell would be apparent to anyone else walking by?


  8. #698
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    Another thought. Why would she bury Caylee right away? That means every moment she was out and about someone could have happened upon Caylee's body. Her plan of the babysitter would have fallen through had the law found a body BEFORE a child was declared missing. right? I don't think she would have done that. I believe she kept Caylee for a few weeks in the trunk until the smell could not be covered anymore. THEN proceeded to the burial site. Was it already flooded by that time? Let's say a two days before the car was discovered is when she buried Caylee. I find it hard to believe she just up and layed Caylee in a bag right there on the ground w/o burying her for cover. Did she bury her in a swampy watery area and as the water came over the next few months it swept the bag from the original resting place? These are my thoughts.


  9. #699
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bern View Post
    JMO, but I don't think she was already dead. I think she was put to sleep with the chloroform and the duct tape was to smother her. If it was to just keep her quiet you wouldn't put it all around the head. She was making sure she was dead. If it was to just put her to sleep and then keep her quiet if she woke, then Caylee may have vomited and chocked on it and that is also a possibility. But I think KC was in a fit of anger, she wanted to computer time, she had a bad fight with her mother the night before and she just snapped.

    JMO
    Quite possible I'm sure - but so far, no one has provided a plausible explaination of how Casey got chloroform to begin with - I mean, it's almost impossible for an individual to buy and way too hard for Casey to make it at home - takes time, chemicals and that certainly would have raised GA/CA's suspicions I would think. Why was ducttape not found binding the hands? A child could have tried to remove it from the face if the hands were free?


  10. #700
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    Quote Originally Posted by dearmont View Post
    Quite possible I'm sure - but so far, no one has provided a plausible explaination of how Casey got chloroform to begin with - I mean, it's almost impossible for an individual to buy and way too hard for Casey to make it at home - takes time, chemicals and that certainly would have raised GA/CA's suspicions I would think. Why was ducttape not found binding the hands? A child could have tried to remove it from the face if the hands were free?
    Ok, maybe I wasn't clear. If you are unconscious, and then someone duct tapes your nose and mouth, you probably wouldn't need to tie the hands, as the person is going to die in there very deep sleep. Chloroform is very easy to get on line. NG's staff got it in less than a few minutes, at least were able to order it. I don't think KC got her's on line, maybe she made one batch, or got it from friends. You have to store it in a glass container. But if you killed someone with it, you would dump it down the sink, I would think, when you are done.


  11. #701
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    Quote Originally Posted by dearmont View Post
    So, possible ways that Caylee, bless her, may have died:
    1) drowning
    2) overdose
    3) chloroform
    4) beaten to death
    5) heat exhaustion in the back of the car/trunk
    6) poisoning from ingesting household chmicals
    7) shaken to death
    8) strangulation/suffocation
    9)....more?

    so, my question is - why the duct tape around her mouth - and all around the back of her head??? What purpose would that have served is she were already dead???
    Certainly not 'beaten to death' as there was no antimortem trauma to the bones and probably not strangulation as there is a small bone in the throat (can't remember what it's called) that is frequently fractured during strangulation.

    As for the duct tape being on the mouth/around her skull - this is just hearsay at present.
    Oh what a tangled web we weave,
    when we set out to deceive!


  12. #702
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    I remember reading an interview regarding KA and chloroform. One of her friends is a Vet. tech and animal Dr's have a use for this and keep it in the office. Since we know how KA sometimes borrows things that don't belong to her , it is possible this was the case. I am not sure what to think without more evidence as to what happened to sweet Caylee. We need another doc dump.


  13. #703
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    Quote Originally Posted by dearmont View Post
    So, possible ways that Caylee, bless her, may have died:
    1) drowning
    2) overdose
    3) chloroform
    4) beaten to death
    5) heat exhaustion in the back of the car/trunk
    6) poisoning from ingesting household chmicals
    7) shaken to death
    8) strangulation/suffocation
    9)....more?

    so, my question is - why the duct tape around her mouth - and all around the back of her head??? What purpose would that have served is she were already dead???
    Cindy evidently had her hands around Casey's neck the night before. (daugther like mother) Neighbors and friends testify to Casey's temper(Casey heard yelling profanities at her mom). Not a far stretch to think she suffocated Caylee (LE took the small round pillow as evidence) The duct tape would have occurred after the suffocation to make it look like a kidnapping. (Casey would have gotten this idea from a movie or episode of from tv.)


  14. #704
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bern View Post
    Ok, maybe I wasn't clear. If you are unconscious, and then someone duct tapes your nose and mouth, you probably wouldn't need to tie the hands, as the person is going to die in there very deep sleep. Chloroform is very easy to get on line. NG's staff got it in less than a few minutes, at least were able to order it. I don't think KC got her's on line, maybe she made one batch, or got it from friends. You have to store it in a glass container. But if you killed someone with it, you would dump it down the sink, I would think, when you are done.
    I would think if Casey was using Chloroform on a regular basis or even once there would be traces found in other unusual places... like the backseat or on the steering wheel or in the house. I just think this is too much work and thought for a lazy, immature mom. Grab a pillow to shut the kid up is more her style. The cholorform searches were found to have been performed after a visit to a MySpace page... Ric had that picture regarding chloroform... she did not know what it was and looked it up. I am sure on those pages it showed how to make a recipe.


  15. #705
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devon View Post
    Certainly not 'beaten to death' as there was no antimortem trauma to the bones and probably not strangulation as there is a small bone in the throat (can't remember what it's called) that is frequently fractured during strangulation.

    As for the duct tape being on the mouth/around her skull - this is just hearsay at present.
    Is this same bone broken during SUFFOCATION?? I would think not. Strangulation with hands and suffocation with a pillow are 2 different ways to die and should be on seperate items.


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