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Thread: Mystery couple murdered in South Carolina, 1976 - #4

  1. #326
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    Quote Originally Posted by mjhelms View Post
    Just a thought. Where they were found is not that far from the Darlington Raceway in SC. They could have been following the Nascar circuit back then (which raced in Daytona and Darlington), I am sure you can search the schedule for that year. IMO, I would be surprised to find French-Canadians back then following the Nascar circuit though, seems like they would be more interested in the Formula One/Indy cars type circuit if they were of some European descent.
    Well, the Daytona 500 runs in February of each year. However, the Daytona Raceway has races year-round. It doesn't seem common for French-Canadians to be followers of Nascar, but I don't think it's improbable.

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    Slight correction to NASCAR info from 1976

    I grew up in the houses behind Darlington Raceway, so I feel like I have to correct some of the info about racing at the Lady in Black in 1976.

    We used to have 2 races per year, one in the Spring called the Rebel 400 and one on Labor Day Weekend (September) called the Southern 500. We also used to have a lot of unofficial track testing and races that were not part of NASCAR. This type of racing did not have a lot of "outsider" interest, more of a circuit crowd and very redneck crowd. It might have held some lure as "supremely small town southern USA" for exchange students or college travelers, but it was a rough crowd back then...

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    I wanted to find out some more information about why John and Jane Doe were not wearing underwear. I always felt that it was very odd. There is a book called "Long Distance Hiking" by Roland Meuser where he writes about his journeys on the Appalachian Trail. He talks about how hikers during the 1970s would frequently go without underclothing and there there were lightweight, synthetic-fabric shorts w/ built in liners that would dry quickly when wet. These were used during the hot months and the months of June, July and August apparently can be pretty hot in South Carolina.

    Also, there was a slang term called "going commando" which was used in the 1970s. It meant for people to go without wearing any underwear. Its origin reportedly came from 1974 college campuses during the outgrowth of the Vietnam War.

    I'm starting to wonder if John and Jane were a couple and not brother and sister. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't someone on here say that John might have been or was a teacher? Maybe he was a teacher or he could have been a college professor. This could explain why he was on a vacation during the summer. Teachers have the summer months off and most schools at that time did not go back into session until after Labor Day except for some schools in the southeast which went back in August. Even then, this was too early for John Doe to return to school as a teacher.

    What puzzles me is why didn't the school or university have any concern about his whereabouts? Is it possible that John Doe was fired or quit his job? Maybe Jane Doe was one of his students and he was fired for having an inappropriate relationship. Or maybe he was fired for another reason or just handed in his resignation. Who knows?

    This is all speculation here, but something tells me that either John or Jane were based out west. Their travels had them passing through Grants Truck Stop which was out west. Also, we have to remember that this was the bicentennial. Maybe they were feeling patriotic about America and decided to travel across the country to visit all 50 states or most of the states in the country. I don't know.

    Also, one final question: has anyone ever considered the Freedom Train possibility? I believe this was a train which traveled throughout the United States in 1976 during the bicentennial. It traveled all over the country and perhaps at some point John and Jane took the train.

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    Quote Originally Posted by elliottness View Post
    I'm starting to wonder if John and Jane were a couple and not brother and sister. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't someone on here say that John might have been or was a teacher? Maybe he was a teacher or he could have been a college professor. This could explain why he was on a vacation during the summer. Teachers have the summer months off and most schools at that time did not go back into session until after Labor Day except for some schools in the southeast which went back in August. Even then, this was too early for John Doe to return to school as a teacher.

    What puzzles me is why didn't the school or university have any concern about his whereabouts? Is it possible that John Doe was fired or quit his job? Maybe Jane Doe was one of his students and he was fired for having an inappropriate relationship. Or maybe he was fired for another reason or just handed in his resignation. Who knows?
    I have never really thought they were brother and sister. I have always leaned more toward the idea that they were a couple or possibly just good friends or traveling companions rather than related. JMO.

    Below is a snippet from the article that appeared in the National Post of Canada last April, The Couple Nobody Claimed. It said he had formerly been a schoolteacher. From what he told the guy at the KOA it sounded like he was just trying to figure out what to do with his life since he no longer taught and had given up his career in medicine. That's just my impression though.

    "He stated that he believed the man had mentioned he was from Canada; that he had formerly been a schoolteacher and that his father was a medical doctor. He further stated that the man told him that his family had practically disowned him because they had wanted him so badly to be a doctor."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cambria View Post
    I have never really thought they were brother and sister. I have always leaned more toward the idea that they were a couple or possibly just good friends or traveling companions rather than related. JMO.

    Below is a snippet from the article that appeared in the National Post of Canada last April, The Couple Nobody Claimed. It said he had formerly been a schoolteacher. From what he told the guy at the KOA it sounded like he was just trying to figure out what to do with his life since he no longer taught and had given up his career in medicine. That's just my impression though.

    "He stated that he believed the man had mentioned he was from Canada; that he had formerly been a schoolteacher and that his father was a medical doctor. He further stated that the man told him that his family had practically disowned him because they had wanted him so badly to be a doctor."
    Out of all of the possible missing persons listed on here the closest one IMHO is Brian Guberman. He fits the profile more than any other man IMHO. Olive complexion, height is about the same, weight, he was a teacher, from Canada. But he was ruled out and just looking at some of his family photos I get the impression that Brian comes from a very loving family. It's a shame because he seems like a great guy. Note: I do not use past tense because I'll never give up hope that Brian or others like him are dead. JMO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cambria View Post
    I have never really thought they were brother and sister. I have always leaned more toward the idea that they were a couple or possibly just good friends or traveling companions rather than related. JMO.

    Below is a snippet from the article that appeared in the National Post of Canada last April, The Couple Nobody Claimed. It said he had formerly been a schoolteacher. From what he told the guy at the KOA it sounded like he was just trying to figure out what to do with his life since he no longer taught and had given up his career in medicine. That's just my impression though.

    "He stated that he believed the man had mentioned he was from Canada; that he had formerly been a schoolteacher and that his father was a medical doctor. He further stated that the man told him that his family had practically disowned him because they had wanted him so badly to be a doctor."
    He no longer taught? This could explain why the school wasn't looking for a missing teacher. But I keep coming back to Jane Doe. What about her family? I suspect that she ran away with Jock Doe and perhaps the age difference between them is one of the reasons why Jock's father disowned him. If he was in his late 20s and she in her late teens, I could see that being a bit of an issue even in those days. However, I don't understand how either of their parents or even family members, friends, associates, etc. can go 30+ years without wondering what happened to them. It is really bizarre.

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    Quote Originally Posted by elliottness View Post
    He no longer taught? This could explain why the school wasn't looking for a missing teacher. But I keep coming back to Jane Doe. What about her family? I suspect that she ran away with Jock Doe and perhaps the age difference between them is one of the reasons why Jock's father disowned him. If he was in his late 20s and she in her late teens, I could see that being a bit of an issue even in those days. However, I don't understand how either of their parents or even family members, friends, associates, etc. can go 30+ years without wondering what happened to them. It is really bizarre.
    That has always been on my mind. If John Doe's father disowned him, I could see why his parents at least were't looking for him. They could have had a big blowup and his Dad just decided to wash his hands of the whole matter. Maybe he was an only child and his Mom and Dad just figured he had left and that was that. But I just can't figure out why no one seemingly is looking for HER! It gets me that no one seems to be looking for either one of them but at least with him there is "sort of" an explanation as to why (if what the KOA guy said was true.) But with her there is just absolutely no info on her other than what she was wearing and she may have carried a large suitcase! Not much to go on. But I am surprised she isn't listed as missing somewhere.

    I agree, Brian Guberman was a good match. It was his sister who actually ruled him out though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cambria View Post
    That has always been on my mind. If John Doe's father disowned him, I could see why his parents at least were't looking for him. They could have had a big blowup and his Dad just decided to wash his hands of the whole matter. Maybe he was an only child and his Mom and Dad just figured he had left and that was that. But I just can't figure out why no one seemingly is looking for HER! It gets me that no one seems to be looking for either one of them but at least with him there is "sort of" an explanation as to why (if what the KOA guy said was true.) But with her there is just absolutely no info on her other than what she was wearing and she may have carried a large suitcase! Not much to go on. But I am surprised she isn't listed as missing somewhere.

    I agree, Brian Guberman was a good match. It was his sister who actually ruled him out though.
    What about this person? http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/1298dffl.html

    Has anyone looked at this woman yet? Out of all of the missing women from Doe Network, I think she looks the most like Jane Doe.

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    I don't understand why there isn't questions from school mates and friends, family, WHY they have never been contacted or been at their class reunions, family holidays, birthdays, funerals etc...

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    Could the reason that they are not wearing any underwear be because they were abducted suddenly from the campgrounds? I'm thinking they were sleeping or making love when someone(s) confronted them and told them to hurry up and dress and then they were taken and murdered. If this a possibility then I think the KOA guy could have set them up. This case haunts me and I just want them to have their names back. At least they will never be forgotten because I know we will never let that happen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by elliottness View Post
    What about this person? http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/1298dffl.html

    Has anyone looked at this woman yet? Out of all of the missing women from Doe Network, I think she looks the most like Jane Doe.
    Unfortunately, she went missing four days after Jock and Jane Doe were killed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by justthinkin View Post
    Madea, I got 2 words for you--no moles. Between moles and teeth, we are really stymied.

    I did note that several sketches have no moles visible. In blowing up the 2 pics which show decomp on her face, it's hard to tell if the moles are moles or if they're just decomp splotches. The quote "moles" on the left side of her mouth look no different than the 3 decomp splotches to the right of her mouth.

    Is it possible that the funeral home turned decomp splotches into beauty marks, and after seeing the victim over and over with the "moles," they just became ingrained as moles in everyone's mind? They certainly weren't put on the earliest sketch released.
    I noticed that no moles were in Antoinette's photo, but it appeared to be professionally made, so I was thinking that sometimes a professional will retouch or paint over their photos and maybe, the moles were airbrushed out.... Too, Antoinette went missing in 1972, five years previously than Jane was found, so the moles could be a result of a pregnancy or something like being in the sun more...IDK.... What struck me as these two being a match, was the eyes nose & lips, and their facial bone structure, mostly the eyes, both beautiful, I must say.... Antoinette was from California, too, if she met "Jock" and traveled around with him, they might've passed through Nebraska, stopped at Grants Pass there......
    It should be checked out, since the ME hasn't had many leads .....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyla4 View Post
    Could the reason that they are not wearing any underwear be because they were abducted suddenly from the campgrounds? I'm thinking they were sleeping or making love when someone(s) confronted them and told them to hurry up and dress and then they were taken and murdered.

    If this a possibility then I think the KOA guy could have set them up. This case haunts me and I just want them to have their names back. At least they will never be forgotten because I know we will never let that happen........
    Nyla, You just may be on to something..A very good possibility, imo.

    Just maybe someone surprised the couple at the KOA, forced them to quickly put on their shorts and jeans and go with them...of course they could have been shot once at their camp/or in their trailer or in someones' home or taken by surprise at the camp 'showers' late that evening.

    Another theory I have is because of Jane's shoes and manicures, that Jock and Jane was/had been visiting someone Sunday.
    It doesn't make any sense to me, this couple would be at the KOA for the second time, staying 2 weeks and NOT make friends or visit with new friends there...
    we know they were friendly with a workers husband, David B..who else did they meet in the area? My first guess would be L. Henrys son...

    I agree, Nyla,
    David B. knew the couple was from far away, that Jock had a large roll of money with him and learned a lot about this couple while playing pool, talking and possibly checking the KOA camp records.
    I suspect David knew a lot more about the couple than was ever told to the investigator. Of course it's my opinion, the investigator didn't ask many questions, since he NEVER followed-up on what David told him.

    Did anyone ever find out where David B. worked and what type of work? Correct me if I'm wrong, his wife was who worked at the KOA..

    Jane had a large suitcase which tells me they had a vehicle.
    Jock could have been driving a hot, new car. Remember he was possibly a racing fan. Attending races wasn't 'cheap'.

    One can only guess what Jock and Jane were camping in, ....They were not dressed like they were 'roughing it', and very clean...imo

    This couple had 'something' a man or men wanted bad enough to murder 2 people to get it......We know it wasn't their jewelry...

    what could it have been, money, drugs, car, Van, camper, a yacht or boat or information on who was heading-up the illegal activities in that area, or some of it all, and WHO got their possessions and where did they sell them??


    My question still remains, why would Le 'cover' for these 'guys' all these years? Was Henry or Batson an informant or something more to Le?..
    We know Le already knew Henry..... did Henry know something on LE or was involved in something with them as a trucker, that allowed him to walk away from a felony and more?

    Another thought is: Ever think, the cover-up was not to cover up who murdered the couple, but instead, who the couple may have been...
    related to, working for, as in drugs or working Undercover or what they OWNED.... IF found out, their names would lead back to what they were murdered for ?
    so the leads are not followed up and the case goes cold..
    Last edited by Mysterylover; 02-24-2009 at 03:06 PM.

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    Has anyone seen this profile? http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/2322dfqc.html

    Her name is Sylvie Ouimet. 5'4, 124 lbs. 20 y/o from Quebec. Was in an institution and left without her belongings in 1974. In one of the pictures she looks like she has a mole on her left cheek although I could be wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by elliottness View Post
    Has anyone seen this profile? http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/2322dfqc.html

    Her name is Sylvie Ouimet. 5'4, 124 lbs. 20 y/o from Quebec. Was in an institution and left without her belongings in 1974. In one of the pictures she looks like she has a mole on her left cheek although I could be wrong.
    I believe Sylvie Ouimet was ruled out already, but I can't find it on the thread to verify it. I know her name was brought up before and it's somewhere on one of the previous threads. It's a good find though. I just can't find on here where it says she was officially ruled out. Maybe she wasn't "officially" ruled out but I know she's been considered before.


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    This photo was listed on a Poster put out by the LAPD, hoping to locate some of the women that were possible victims of William L. Bradford....This model looks an awful lot like this Jane Doe.... I believe she has on a wig, too!Bradford also killed men that he photographed or had a relationship with so..... Could it be that they were both victims of his?
    Just a thought......(I do not see any moles in this photo either)

    (PS. I still think Antoinette should be ruled out....)


    Check it out...
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    Madea, got a link? She does look like Jane Doe!

    Another absurdity of this case....Jane Doe may have had a large suitcase. Now either she did or she didn't. If she did, it could've held clues. Anyone ever get Sumter LE to own up to Jane Doe having a suitcase?

    I don't know if it's too late, but we could try to find out where Stride Rite sold their women's shoes back in 1975 and 76. It was a new program so perhaps they didn't have so many stores catering to adults yet. Unfortunately Stride Rite sold out, and now they are a subsidiary of another company. Can't think of the name off-hand.

    I'm having some problems believing this couple was from Canada. Back then most of our clothing was still made in the USA IIRC. He was wearing Levi jeans, well worn, a shirt from a USA race, an American made watch and ring, and she was wearing American made shoes and rings. If from another country, surely they would've been wearing something that was made in that country or something at least not made in the USA.

    One of the earliest articles describes them as looking like the all American boy and girl, calls them teens. That earliest sketch appears to be of teens rather than adults.

    Mysterylover is a teacher per one of her posts here, and she said after looking at students all day she thought this couple was younger than stated. I think she's right. I think they're younger. Sketches depend on the ability of the artist doing them to portray correct age grouping. I think the police sketch is off. They made these kids both look about age 30.

    If Jock Doe was from a nice family in Canada, even if they did initially disown him, I think they would have begun to look for him at some point. It would be the normal thing, especially for his mother. Mothers don't write off their kids permanently, no matter what they've done. They may not approve, but they still love their children. At least, the majority do!

    I don't think we can get hung up on Canada nor get hung up on Jock's jewelry belonging to him. He could've been a thief, and found some jewelry that fit him, that he liked. Illegal activities could've provided the means to afford the dental reconstruction. that could fit with a wad of bills--just sayin.

    One of Jane's rings originally had a red stone, blue stone, and white stone, together a symbol of the US flag. I don't think someone from another country would've been so moved to purchase a ring symbolizing the US bicentennial unless 1. she was from the USA or 2. she was from a poorer country where the citizens may have idealized the USA, and she hoped to get a permanent visa.

    Look at the 2nd. and 6th. photos of Jock, both morgue or funeral home photos. Notice his right eye, and the size difference from the left eye.

    Can we conclude anything by this? Is this accurate or is it induced by funeral home botching? Perhaps we should be looking for a guy whose right eye takes up a smaller portion of his face than his left eye. Whadda ya think?

    I asked this before, but didn't get a response, and I do think it's something for strong consideration.
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    Quote Originally Posted by justthinkin View Post
    Madea, got a link? She does look like Jane Doe!

    Another absurdity of this case....Jane Doe may have had a large suitcase. Now either she did or she didn't. If she did, it could've held clues. Anyone ever get Sumter LE to own up to Jane Doe having a suitcase?

    I don't know if it's too late, but we could try to find out where Stride Rite sold their women's shoes back in 1975 and 76. It was a new program so perhaps they didn't have so many stores catering to adults yet. Unfortunately Stride Rite sold out, and now they are a subsidiary of another company. Can't think of the name off-hand.

    I'm having some problems believing this couple was from Canada. Back then most of our clothing was still made in the USA IIRC. He was wearing Levi jeans, well worn, a shirt from a USA race, an American made watch and ring, and she was wearing American made shoes and rings. If from another country, surely they would've been wearing something that was made in that country or something at least not made in the USA.

    One of the earliest articles describes them as looking like the all American boy and girl, calls them teens. That earliest sketch appears to be of teens rather than adults.

    Mysterylover is a teacher per one of her posts here, and she said after looking at students all day she thought this couple was younger than stated. I think she's right. I think they're younger. Sketches depend on the ability of the artist doing them to portray correct age grouping. I think the police sketch is off. They made these kids both look about age 30.

    If Jock Doe was from a nice family in Canada, even if they did initially disown him, I think they would have begun to look for him at some point. It would be the normal thing, especially for his mother. Mothers don't write off their kids permanently, no matter what they've done. They may not approve, but they still love their children. At least, the majority do!

    I don't think we can get hung up on Canada nor get hung up on Jock's jewelry belonging to him. He could've been a thief, and found some jewelry that fit him, that he liked. Illegal activities could've provided the means to afford the dental reconstruction. that could fit with a wad of bills--just sayin.

    One of Jane's rings originally had a red stone, blue stone, and white stone, together a symbol of the US flag. I don't think someone from another country would've been so moved to purchase a ring symbolizing the US bicentennial unless 1. she was from the USA or 2. she was from a poorer country where the citizens may have idealized the USA, and she hoped to get a permanent visa.

    Look at the 2nd. and 6th. photos of Jock, both morgue or funeral home photos. Notice his right eye, and the size difference from the left eye.

    Can we conclude anything by this? Is this accurate or is it induced by funeral home botching? Perhaps we should be looking for a guy whose right eye takes up a smaller portion of his face than his left eye. Whadda ya think?

    I asked this before, but didn't get a response, and I do think it's something for strong consideration.
    Here's the link where I found the photo: http://crime.about.com/od/missing/ig...n/index.03.htm

    On the "Jock" Doe eye question, the right eye is possibly where the bullet lodged or expanded there, it's possible that it could've been stretched to remove the bullet... not sure, JMO. Tomorrow, I'll ask my funeral home friend if that could be the case....
    Oh and it was Los Angeles County Sheriff's dept. that put out this poster, some of the ladies on the poster have been indentified, one was the Leppert girl, BTW, they removed that photo!
    Last edited by MadeaBecBec; 02-24-2009 at 03:29 AM. Reason: Added LASD

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    Madea,

    I think you should follow up on #41 out of LA county. She looks enough like most of the photos/sketches of Jane Doe to warrant matching efforts, moles or no moles!

    I'd at least find out when #41 went missing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MadeaBecBec View Post
    This photo was listed on a Poster put out by the LAPD, hoping to locate some of the women that were possible victims of William L. Bradford....This model looks an awful lot like this Jane Doe.... I believe she has on a wig, too!
    Bradford also killed men that he photographed or had a relationship with so.....
    Could it be that they were both victims of his?
    Just a thought......(I do not see any moles in this photo either)

    (PS. I still think Antoinette should be ruled out....)

    Check it out...
    Hi Justthinkin, I agree!

    MadeaBec, I agree, she seems to be wearing a wig in the photo..
    I always look at the thickness of the eye brows and their shape, nose shape and fullness of the lips... These do match our Jane Doe!....

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    Quote Originally Posted by justthinkin View Post
    Madea,

    I think you should follow up on #41 out of LA county. She looks enough like most of the photos/sketches of Jane Doe to warrant matching efforts, moles or no moles!

    I'd at least find out when #41 went missing.

    I think #41 has been identified a while back. Not sure who she was identified as, but here is a link.

    http://www.news4jax.com/download/2006/0824/9730253.pdf

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    4 me perhaps...

    Quote Originally Posted by :+:MrTT:+: View Post
    .......something t3ells me, these two may have been from Canada, but not as citizens, but as guests etc....they may have flown into Canada and came to the US, to travel the country, and celebrate the bicentennial celebrations throughout the country.........it saddens me to think they came to this country, to fulfill a dream to visit here, especially the 200 birthday of America, and there travels here got them murdered, they were friendly people, and trusted most, someone i feel took advantage of there kindness, and it cause there death..........there statement where from Canada.........makes me think more that was there original disination, from there real homeland......in 76 to enter USA, perhaps it was easier for them to fly to canada first, then travel down and into america.....hence there statemnet, where from canada...........perhaps we should concentrate south of the border, and neighboring countries such as columbia etc, for looking at there pictures, i sense nothing indication they are Canadian residents........to see if any missing persons reports had been reported in 76 77 time period........back then, in 76 a foriengner missing here, there could have been a language barriour in finding whom they are......unlike today, options were limited at that time...........ALL JUST MOO.....and trying to offer a different perspective on the situation.
    ................I'm going to look around in Venezuela/Columbia areas for missing persons from that time............though Spanish may be a problem here.........at the time, they may have come from a state controlled environment......where ones freedom, perhaps was not as open, as it is today........he looks like he could had been some freedom fighter, for social change and justice etc..........they may have come from what would have been known as a closed society perhaps.......considered traitor/traitors perhaps...........was not uncommon for persons to be executed , such as the Israel athletes during the Olympics in 72 i believe.........

    ...forgot to add...ALL JUST MOO......nothing factual or certain.
    Last edited by :+:MrTT:+:; 02-25-2009 at 02:00 AM. Reason: forgot to add...
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    Where Life is Grand, C-Dubya,AR
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhyno1974 View Post
    I think #41 has been identified a while back. Not sure who she was identified as, but here is a link.

    http://www.news4jax.com/download/2006/0824/9730253.pdf
    Thanks for the link! I think I'll fire off an email to these Detectives and see if I can find out who the #41 woman is/was and if she is alive and well, or if family identified her by the photo..... She is really a close match, if she is still alive SC Jane could be her sister.......Ya never know!



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  24. #349
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    900
    Can someone enlarge the 1st photo of Jock's face, as he lay on the ground? post #342... There seems to be a round black 'dot' on his ear lobe, at the place he would be wearing an earring...if by chance it's a diamond ear ring, its a big one...anyone see what I'm talking about?..

    ‘All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing’..
    Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds...What I write here, are my theories, speculation, opinions & deductive reasoning...not to be taken as 'fact'..

  25. #350
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    2,196
    Quote Originally Posted by MadeaBecBec View Post
    Here's the link where I found the photo: http://crime.about.com/od/missing/ig...n/index.03.htm

    On the "Jock" Doe eye question, the right eye is possibly where the bullet lodged or expanded there, it's possible that it could've been stretched to remove the bullet... not sure, JMO. Tomorrow, I'll ask my funeral home friend if that could be the case....
    Oh and it was Los Angeles County Sheriff's dept. that put out this poster, some of the ladies on the poster have been indentified, one was the Leppert girl, BTW, they removed that photo!

    Madea, please look again. His right eye is smaller than the left. His left eye appears to be of normal size, but the right eye doesn't match the left, it's smaller, narrower.

    I will be anxious to hear what you find out about #41 from LAPD. See if she was matched through dna.

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