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Thread: Mystery couple murdered in South Carolina, 1976 - #4

  1. #351
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mysterylover View Post
    Can someone enlarge the 1st photo of Jock's face, as he lay on the ground? post #342... There seems to be a round black 'dot' on his ear lobe, at the place he would be wearing an earring...if by chance it's a diamond ear ring, its a big one...anyone see what I'm talking about?..
    I did enlarge that photo, but it doesn't look like an earring. It's too large. Not sure what that is. It doesn't appear in other photos. I also checked the lousy crime scene photo, blew it up, and discovered something else. No gunshot to the neck. And yet the #1 close up from post #342 clearly shows a gunshot to the neck.

  2. #352
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    Heard back from LASD on photo

    Here's is the e-mail that Mr. Taylor replied back to me;
    The woman filling photo #41 on the bulletin is Teresa Bradford, one of Bradford’s ex-wives. She was interviewed several times during this investigation. Also, this case was inactivated last year following Bradford’s death.

    Thank you
    Sergeant Robert "Bobby" Taylor
    LASD Homicide Bureau

    Unsolved & ITMS Investigative Unit
    5747 Rickenbacker Road
    Commerce, Ca 90040
    Home Office: (323) 890-5500 ext. 5523
    ITMS Office: (323) 580-5519
    ITMS Fax : (323) 415-3337
    Fax: (323) 415-1540
    e-mail: rltaylor@lasd.org

    So that explains who that photo is and that she is still alive and well, so back to other missing persons photos.....



    Jeremiah 29:11-14

  3. #353
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    While reading about all our missing children I ran across this interesting article.
    Thought you would be interested in reading it and possibly ask the same question I have ask to myself, WHY isn't this test being done on 'our Jock & Jane'??
    QUOTE:
    Study shows unidentified dead boy spent short life in northern Illinois

    Authorities say they hope new scientific information may help them identify a young boy whose remains were buried earlier this year.

    The unidentified little boy whose remains were found in 2005 inside a laundry bag dumped in a field on the outskirts of northwest Naperville spent most of his life in northern Illinois, authorities said Wednesday.

    A study of oxygen isotopes in the boy's bones and teeth by a Canadian college professor who specializes in geochemistry determined the particular isotopes from the boy's skeleton matched samples taken from the tooth of a Naperville child.

    The research further determined the boy's mother had lived in the south-central portion of Canada while pregnant with the boy -- likely Winnipeg, Sault Ste. Marie or the surrounding areas, said Henry P. Schwarcz, an emeritus professor at McMaster University in Hamilton, Ontario, who performed the study.

    "Most of your body is made up of oxygen, and that gets into your bones and teeth, and therefore you have some records of where that oxygen comes from," Schwarcz said.

    Over the course of 40 years, scientists have created a map of North America based on particular types of oxygen isotopes, Schwarcz said. While the map can't pinpoint exact locations, it can narrow things down.

    Using one of the boy's primary molars, Schwarcz was able to determine that the child's mother had lived in a particular area of Canada or even possibly the Upper Peninsula of Michigan while pregnant. Because the tooth was formed in utero, it carries the mother's information.

    An analysis of the boy's bone determined he had spent most, if not all, of his life in northern Illinois. Schwarcz said bones collect oxygen isotopes that act as geographic markers throughout a person's life.

    More at link http://www.dailyherald.com/story/?id=85576[/quote]

    quoting and bringing this further into the discussion.

    ‘All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing’..
    Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds...What I write here, are my theories, speculation, opinions & deductive reasoning...not to be taken as 'fact'..

  4. #354
    ^^

    The officials in Sumter are aware that isotope testing is available and the former coroner expressed interest in it. Since there has been a change in the coroner's office recently, I cannot speculate on where the new people in charge stand on this issue though. Carrying out the tests also involves expense (Dr Schwarcz does not do this work for free). There is also the logistical difficulty of transporting human remains (which any human bone samples are considered, regardless of how small) across an international border in order for the tests to be conducted.

  5. #355
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    Okay, I've written to Prof. Schwarcz, asking if there's anyone in the US who does this, and how much it costs, and how long it takes.

  6. #356
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    rmf, do you know the name of the detective currently assigned to work this case?

  7. #357
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    Quote Originally Posted by justthinkin View Post
    Okay, I've written to Prof. Schwarcz, asking if there's anyone in the US who does this, and how much it costs, and how long it takes.
    Here are some of the Universities that do Isotope Hair Analysis:
    Department of Anthropology, Oregon State University, Corvallis, Oregon
    238 Waldo Hall 97331 email address; anthropology@oregonstate.edu


    Department of Anthropology, Texas A&M University, College Station, Texas
    4352 TAMU 77844
    Professor Vaughn Bryant's email Address is; vbryant@tamu.edu

    If there is still hair, for Jock & Jane, this would probably be the quickest and least expensive, right? May not cost anything if it is done in a classroom setting.....IDK!


    I'll check back.....



    Jeremiah 29:11-14

  8. #358
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    Good work, Mystery & Madea! We need someone to call the SC state lab that has the bones & see if they also received hair samples for testing before contacting either OSU or TAMU.

  9. #359
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    Long time lurker on this case-great work being done here!!! I personally love the isotope analysis-we had a long time poster who brought the concept to my attention early in 2008 in some of the other UID cases. All of us instantly thought of Jock and Jane, as well as Boy in the Box and maybe even Benjaman Kyle. I look forward to reading any responses you get on this work being done for Jock and Jane. If you need warm bodies to make requests, please let me know!

    Peace.
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  10. #360
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmf View Post
    ^^

    The officials in Sumter are aware that isotope testing is available and the former coroner expressed interest in it. Since there has been a change in the coroner's office recently, I cannot speculate on where the new people in charge stand on this issue though.
    Carrying out the tests also involves expense (Dr Schwarcz does not do this work for free).

    There is also the logistical difficulty of transporting human remains (which any human bone samples are considered, regardless of how small) across an international border in order for the tests to be conducted.
    rmf,
    Yes, there has been a change in the coroners office BUT doesn't LE/ the investigator in this case have a 'say' in this testing ?
    Why would the 'testing' request in a double murder case be left totally up to the coroner?

    I can't believe the bone samples would have to be sent to another Country for tests?

    What did the investigators find out about this test costs, last year, when another WS suggested the oxygen isotope test to be done?

    It's hard to believe there isn't any labs in the U.S. that do the same oxygen isotope tests?

    Of course it would take time and expense to get DNA/isotope results, but it could possibly send two lost kids home to their loved ones and possibly their parents/friends/sleuthers would offer to pay the Lab bill..

    Seems solving the case would be the least expensive way to go after 30 years of keeping the case open .. what's your thoughts on this?.. .jmo
    Last edited by Mysterylover; 03-08-2009 at 10:41 PM.

    ‘All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing’..
    Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds...What I write here, are my theories, speculation, opinions & deductive reasoning...not to be taken as 'fact'..

  11. #361
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    Oxygen isotope analysis of dental enamel can assist in determining a persons place of origin.

    Tooth enamel stores a chemical record of their owners’ childhood living environment, such as local climate and geology.

    Nearly all of the oxygen that goes into the formation of tooth and bone comes from the water we drink and virtually all the water we drink is ultimately derived from precipitation as rain or snow......

    ‘All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing’..
    Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds...What I write here, are my theories, speculation, opinions & deductive reasoning...not to be taken as 'fact'..

  12. #362
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    You can forget the teeth on our Jock Doe, Mystery. Sumter convienently lost them. Oh boy, yeah, they're just chomping at the bit to solve this, losing evidence here, there, and the next place.

  13. #363
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    Quote Originally Posted by justthinkin View Post
    You can forget the teeth on our Jock Doe, Mystery. Sumter convienently lost them.
    email me


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  14. #364
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    Hey, great to have you aboard, believe09. Yeah, this case just gets more interesting all the time.

    I see you used to post on this case, so welcome back instead.

  15. #365
    To answer the questions, Dr Schwarcz has already been contacted about the SC case, and the possibility of him doing work on it, so he's familiar. He's also seen the press in Canada about it. As I wrote before, he does not do the work for free- and I don't begrudge him that either, he is a professional and this is what he does. Isotope analysis can be done both on bones and teeth, so in this case the bones would need to be looked at, unless the county wants to pay for another exhumation, which would be doubtful.

    I have been told by the detective assigned to this case that he is retiring in April and that all inquiries on the case are being handled by the new coroner. Why? I have no idea and I did not inquire further as I don't feel it is appropriate to ask why this has been decided.

    ALL the bone samples taken in June 2007 were sent to the lab in Texas for DNA. So *if* they were to embark on the isotope analysis route- they would have to wait to get the bones back from Texas first.

    With states being so strapped for cash these days, it is questionable whether the expense involved in this analysis would be easy to justify at this point. (IMHO)

    That's all I know.

    ETA: I think it's important to add that Sumter County did not lose the John Doe's dentals. A forensic dentist who was asked to study them did.

  16. #366
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmf View Post
    To answer the questions, Dr Schwarcz has already been contacted about the SC case, and the possibility of him doing work on it, so he's familiar. He's also seen the press in Canada about it. As I wrote before, he does not do the work for free- and I don't begrudge him that either, he is a professional and this is what he does. Isotope analysis can be done both on bones and teeth, so in this case the bones would need to be looked at, unless the county wants to pay for another exhumation, which would be doubtful.

    I have been told by the detective assigned to this case that he is retiring in April and that all inquiries on the case are being handled by the new coroner. Why? I have no idea and I did not inquire further as I don't feel it is appropriate to ask why this has been decided.

    ALL the bone samples taken in June 2007 were sent to the lab in Texas for DNA. So *if* they were to embark on the isotope analysis route- they would have to wait to get the bones back from Texas first.

    With states being so strapped for cash these days, it is questionable whether the expense involved in this analysis would be easy to justify at this point. (IMHO)

    That's all I know.

    ETA: I think it's important to add that Sumter County did not lose the John Doe's dentals. A forensic dentist who was asked to study them did.
    Well who would be expecting Dr. Schwarcz to do the work for free? The state of South Carolina?

    I don't think it matters who lost the teeth. If LE ran a tight ship, they'd have asked for the teeth back within a reasonable amount of time so it looks like they're still on the hook for this since keeping track of evidence is their responsibility.

    Your statement is the first I've heard that the bones were sent to Texas. Can you back that statement up with a source that we can see in print?

    Last I heard the bones went to the state lab where they didn't have the capability to extract dna from old bones. I believe Verna Moore's statement was that it might be another 31 years before the couple was identified.

    If you knew Dr. Schwarcz had already been contacted on this case, why didn't you speak up? Are you the one who contacted him?

    I'm sorry if I sound abrupt, but it doesn't get a case solved or even a portion of it solved if Websleuthers withhold information from other Websleuthers. Makes me think you have ties to this case, and a different motive for posting from the majority here!

  17. #367
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    http://www.dna.gov/

    Click on the link to Identifying Persons and Victims.

    The DOJ has an initiative to participate in collecting and storing DNA and MtDNA for missing persons. The tab is picked up by the DOJ-the agencies simply pay to ship the samples. Any missing person/UID case is eligible. Law enforcement contacts the program, kits are sent or there is an option to have bones sent.

    The Center for Human Identification is at the University of Texas.
    ~Snip~
    Under the DNA Initiative, there are two sources that can assist jurisdictions with analysis of unidentified remains and reference samples.
    DNA Identity Laboratory Project: DNA Testing of Unidentified Remains.

    The University of North Texas Health Science Center is coordinating with medical examiners' offices, coroners' offices, the Armed Forces DNA Identification Laboratory, the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, the National Center for Missing Adults, and law enforcement agencies to identify, collect, and perform DNA analysis on unidentified remains and reference samples.
    Sample Analysis Through the FBI's National Missing Persons DNA Database Program. The President's DNA Initiative provides funding to the FBI for the analysis of degraded and old biological samples through the National Missing Persons DNA Database Program. The program was established to identify missing and unidentified persons using the National DNA Index System of the FBI's Combined DNA Index System (CODIS). The Missing Persons Database contains two parts into which missing and unidentified persons DNA profiles and Biological Relatives of Missing Persons and Unidentified Human Remains can be entered.
    ~snip~
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  18. #368
    justthinkin, I speak to Mrs. Moore on a weekly basis, and she is the person who told me the bones were sent to the University of Texas lab.

    And yes, I do have ties to this case, my tie is to Mrs Moore and if she has asked me to retain a confidence, then I've respected her wishes and done so.

    I don't really understand the hostility here. If my comments are unwelcome, I can certainly stop posting in this thread altogether.

  19. #369
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    believe09, Very Enlightening and interesting.

    The partner agencies of the DNA Initiative are working to help ensure that DNA forensic technology is used to its full potential to identify missing persons by providing:

    Analysis of Remains and Biological Samples
    Training and Assistance
    DNA Reference Kits
    Educational Materials for Families
    Research, Development, and Testing
    Funding for Crime Laboratories
    See also Publications on Missing Persons Cases.

    Next Section: Analysis of Remains and Biological Samples

    ‘All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing’..
    Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds...What I write here, are my theories, speculation, opinions & deductive reasoning...not to be taken as 'fact'..

  20. #370
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    Quote Originally Posted by justthinkin View Post
    You can forget the teeth on our Jock Doe, Mystery. Sumter convienently lost them. Oh boy, yeah, they're just chomping at the bit to solve this, losing evidence here, there, and the next place.
    ..
    justthinkin, Who was responsible for allowing this evidence to be lost, the coroner or LE?

    How long was the forensic dentist allowed to keep the evidence, before he carelessly lost it?

    Who has the X-rays, measurements and report from the dentist examination on Jocks teeth?

    Why was the forensic dentist sent every tooth in Jocks mouth?

    ‘All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing’..
    Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds...What I write here, are my theories, speculation, opinions & deductive reasoning...not to be taken as 'fact'..

  21. #371
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmf View Post
    justthinkin, I speak to Mrs. Moore on a weekly basis, and she is the person who told me the bones were sent to the University of Texas lab.

    And yes, I do have ties to this case, my tie is to Mrs Moore and if she has asked me to retain a confidence, then I've respected her wishes and done so.

    I don't really understand the hostility here. If my comments are unwelcome, I can certainly stop posting in this thread altogether.
    From almost the inception, posters at Websleuths have questioned whether there was a cover up on this case.

    You do realize that not only was Ms. Moore the deputy coroner at the time, but that she was also a reporter for The Item.

    IMHO, Maybe you should ask yourself if you should believe everything Ms. Moore says--just sayin.

    It's not that your comments are unwelcome. At times, it seems most of what you have to offer is excuses as to why something can't be done or negative vibes on ideas collected here.

    We're not here to keep secrets with the former coroner. It's time every known fact was exposed in this case. The likely perp/s are dead.

  22. #372
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mysterylover View Post
    justthinkin, Who was responsible for allowing this evidence to be lost, the coroner or LE?

    How long was the forensic dentist allowed to keep the evidence, before he carelessly lost it?

    Who has the X-rays, measurements and report from the dentist examination on Jocks teeth?

    Why was the forensic dentist sent every tooth in Jocks mouth?
    All good questions that I, too, would like answers to!

  23. #373
    justthinkin, I'm sorry you feel the way you do. You are entitled to your opinions. I happen to have a great deal of respect for Mrs. Moore, and the many years of service she gave to the citizens of Sumter. I am not sure if you are implying that she is corrupt in some way, but if that's the case, I could not disagree more. I am also of the opinion that it is not a good idea to slag officials on a public website, because they may be reading. And as a result, may be that much less inclined to follow up on any leads produced online that come their way.

    I must also respectfully disagree with your assertion that members should be obligated to post about what LE or others involved in a case may share with them-- especially when it's an open investigation. I would venture to speculate that there have been many hardworking folks at WS that were asked by LE NOT to divulge certain facts online that could compromise the case-- until they had time to investigate further. If discretion is asked of me by someone, then I do my best to respect that, in all aspects of my life.

    Regardless, I think that most everything I've posted has already been discussed in previous threads and also in the various press about the case. I notice that you've been here a short time so maybe you have not had time to read the other threads on this case? (Not sure?) What I do know is that there is not some vast conspiracy to intentionally withhold information.

    Best Regards.

  24. #374
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    I have to agree with rmf. Unfortunately, we often go 'round and 'round here. Often this helps with coming up with more possibilities and is an understandable way to solve a case. But with 3 different threads on the general case, I sometimes get the feeling that posters haven't read entirely through before asking questions or positing theories. This is understandable, but it isn't rmf's job to check the thread daily to answer quetions that have already been answered previously.

    In regards to not believing everything Mrs. Moore says, who else are we supposed to believe? She was the coroner. She worked on those bodies. She has been working on this case all of these years, very possibly using her journalism sources and skills to help find their identities. I think if we have one source, she's one of the very best. Especially since there's a possibility, however slight, that this crime has either been covered up or in the very least, swept under the rug.

    With that being said, I would also like to remind everyone that some of us still live here in SC so please try to watch your wording when making accusations and talking about the state, the politics, etc.

    And lastly:

    I don't think it matters who lost the teeth. If LE ran a tight ship, they'd have asked for the teeth back within a reasonable amount of time so it looks like they're still on the hook for this since keeping track of evidence is their responsibility.

    The man died. The dentist did not throw out the teeth. He died and his wife, while in mourning, donated all of his teeth to a university. This is from what I understand. She wasn't aware that they were from an ongoing investigation. The university disposed of them. SC LE is expecting their teeth back and don't realize the dentist has passed away. When they discover this, it's already too late. It was an accident, and one we have to deal with. I find the above statement contradictory: it doesn't matter who lost the teeth, but it's still LE's fault.

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    justthinkin I was going to tell you the same thing, you need to take some time to read ALL the previous threads in this case. Otherwise, it's like you jumped into the middle of a conversation and just started talking. Most of what is being discussed now, has been discussed before. As an investigator, even an "online" investigator, you are being irresponsible if you don't investigate ALL facts available, which includes every bit of publication on the case you're working on.

    Thank you rmf for all you do. Those comments were completely off base and undeserved. And youshouldveknown, that was a very good reply. I haven't always agreed with everything you've said, but you were completely right on this one.
    Obsessed with trying to do the right thing...

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