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  1. #376
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    Is it just a group of people or is it anyone in particular? Not so much concerned about their position as I am about who they are and where their info is coming from. Any ideas on that?

    I'll try to take a look later......

    Salem


  2. #377
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    Most of the posters on that forum IIRC have followed the M.M. case since it broke. Some of the posters have been key in translating the Portugese news, they are usually precise on their findings. It's worth a read.


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  4. #378
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    thanks salem!

    exactly! all about credibility.

    i don't see links to any mainstream media articles or news sites so that concerns me... if information cannot be verified as being "truth", one shouldn't take it as being true. i've scanned that site a few times now and cannot find any info where the info is coming from... if there are credible links i've missed, please bring them forth. thanks.

    (actually i'm not even sure that link can be used here... as it's not an MSM source...)
    *** THIS POST IS JMO (unless a link is provided) AND IS ONLY FOR USE ON WEBSLEUTHS -- PLEASE DO NOT LINK OR COPY IT ELSEWHERE ***


  5. #379
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    Quote Originally Posted by redheadedgal View Post
    thanks salem!

    exactly! all about credibility.

    i don't see links to any mainstream media articles or news sites so that concerns me... if information cannot be verified as being "truth", one shouldn't take it as being true. i've scanned that site a few times now and cannot find any info where the info is coming from... if there are credible links i've missed, please bring them forth. thanks.

    (actually i'm not even sure that link can be used here... as it's not an MSM source...)

    the 15 of 19 markers comes right from the chief investigators book, so I think it's even better than an MSM link.
    Last edited by rpgman; 05-08-2012 at 04:22 PM.


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  7. #380
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    will you so kindly provide a link to this info with the book credited as a source then? thanks!
    *** THIS POST IS JMO (unless a link is provided) AND IS ONLY FOR USE ON WEBSLEUTHS -- PLEASE DO NOT LINK OR COPY IT ELSEWHERE ***


  8. #381
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    Quote Originally Posted by redheadedgal View Post
    will you so kindly provide a link to this info with the book credited as a source then? thanks!
    I did up top, but I'll give you all the chapters.

    http://missingmadeleine.forumotion.n...e-all-chapters

    The book isn't printed in English, so there are internet sites that took it and translated it into English.

    These are are the only way to read his book in English.

    Every translation site I have come across has translated that chapter 18, the same way. (15 of 19 markers)


  9. #382
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    The one thing that even from the beginning made me think that even if the parents had been involved - I dont see how they could have disposed of the body in the time frames that they had. I dont believe for a minute the more outlandish theories that she was killed days before hand and this was a carefully staged plan. There were independent witnesses that saw Madeleine upt 5.30 that night.

    I certainly dont believe for a minute that this is a cover up. If so this would have to involve two goverments , two judicaries , two police forces all from different nations .all lying to protect who and why - it is too much. and to make it even stranger the ver goverement or country that colluded in the cover up is nopw spending millions on a police review and trying to persuade the Portugese to open the case again ?

    The only logical expalnation I can offer is that an abductor ( and unfortunately we all know these people do exsist ) took an opportune moment to take M from her bed. In a boot of a car they would have been in spain within two hours . We all know from the various reports that the golden first hour was handled badly. The crime site was not sealed , there was no checks on any borders - but this is history now - Even the most partisan of people who say the Mcaans are guilty must recognise that the initial police handling was chaotic at best.

    There has been 1000's of words written about this case on many sites, To answer the point about the 15 DNA markers - I doubt the person is a forensic expert , I am not either . I will post here a copy of the email sent by the FSS to Amaral . Before people ask, this is taken from another site . It is pretty well taken as a genuine email from the police reports that were available to all. I just put it here as is and for people to read. - but in the nature of the net I cant give 100% authenciticy -sorry.
    The jist of the mail was that Swabs from the apartment didnt even isolate what type of fluid it waslet alone a 100% match -

    Anyway it is still all a mystery


    Mr Lowes Email to Sr Amaral.

    Firstly here are the 3 results you are expecting.

    An incomplete DNA result was obtained from cellular material on the swab 3a. The swab contained very little information and showed low level indications of DNA from more than 1 person. However, all of the confirmed DNA components within this result match the corresponding components in the DNA profile of M. M....LCN DNA profiling is highly sensitive, it is not possible to attribute this DNA profile to a particular body fluid.

    There is no evidence to support the view that MM contributed DNA to the swab 3B.

    A complex LCN DNA result which appeared to have originated from at least 3 people was obtained from cellular material recovered from the luggage compartment section 286C 2007 CRL 10 (2) area 2. Within the DNA profile of MM there are 20 DNA components represented by 19 peaks on a chart. At one of the areas of DNA we routinely examine MM has inherited the same DNA components from both parents; this appears therefore as 1 peak rather than 2, hence 19 rather than 20.
    Of these 19 components 15 are present within the result from this item; there are 37 components in total. There are 37 components because there are at least 3 contributors; but there could be up to 5 contributors.

    In my opinion therefore this result is too complex for meaningful interpretation/inclusion.


    Why?.....

    Well let's look at the question that is being asked.

    "Is there DNA from MM on the swab?"

    It would be very simple to say "yes" simply because of the number of components within the result that are also in her reference sample.

    What we need to consider, as scientists, is whether the match is genuine and legitimate; because M has deposited DNA as a result of being in the car or whether M merely appears to match the result by chance. The individual components in M profile are not unique to her; it is the specific combination of 19 components that makes her profile unique above all others. Elements of M profile are also present within the profiles of many of the scientists here in Birmingham, myself included.

    It's important to stress that 50% of M profile will be shared with each parent. It is not possible in a mixture of more than 2 people, to determine or evaluate which specific DNA components pair with each other. Namely we cannot separate the components out into 3 individual DNA profiles.

    Therefore, we cannot answer the question: is the match genuine or is it a chance match.

    The same applies to any result that is quoted as being too complex for meaningful inclusion/interpretation.

    What questions will we never be able to answer with LCN DNA profiling?

    When was DNA deposited?
    How was DNA deposited?
    What body fluid(s) does the DNA originate from?
    Was a crime committed?

    These along with all other results, will be formalised in a final report.


  10. #383
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    Quote Originally Posted by gord View Post
    The one thing that even from the beginning made me think that even if the parents had been involved - I dont see how they could have disposed of the body in the time frames that they had. I dont believe for a minute the more outlandish theories that she was killed days before hand and this was a carefully staged plan. There were independent witnesses that saw Madeleine upt 5.30 that night.

    I certainly dont believe for a minute that this is a cover up. If so this would have to involve two goverments , two judicaries , two police forces all from different nations .all lying to protect who and why - it is too much. and to make it even stranger the ver goverement or country that colluded in the cover up is nopw spending millions on a police review and trying to persuade the Portugese to open the case again ?

    The only logical expalnation I can offer is that an abductor ( and unfortunately we all know these people do exsist ) took an opportune moment to take M from her bed. In a boot of a car they would have been in spain within two hours . We all know from the various reports that the golden first hour was handled badly. The crime site was not sealed , there was no checks on any borders - but this is history now - Even the most partisan of people who say the Mcaans are guilty must recognise that the initial police handling was chaotic at best.

    There has been 1000's of words written about this case on many sites, To answer the point about the 15 DNA markers - I doubt the person is a forensic expert , I am not either . I will post here a copy of the email sent by the FSS to Amaral . Before people ask, this is taken from another site . It is pretty well taken as a genuine email from the police reports that were available to all. I just put it here as is and for people to read. - but in the nature of the net I cant give 100% authenciticy -sorry.
    The jist of the mail was that Swabs from the apartment didnt even isolate what type of fluid it waslet alone a 100% match -

    Anyway it is still all a mystery


    Mr Lowes Email to Sr Amaral.

    Firstly here are the 3 results you are expecting.

    An incomplete DNA result was obtained from cellular material on the swab 3a. The swab contained very little information and showed low level indications of DNA from more than 1 person. However, all of the confirmed DNA components within this result match the corresponding components in the DNA profile of M. M....LCN DNA profiling is highly sensitive, it is not possible to attribute this DNA profile to a particular body fluid.

    There is no evidence to support the view that MM contributed DNA to the swab 3B.

    A complex LCN DNA result which appeared to have originated from at least 3 people was obtained from cellular material recovered from the luggage compartment section 286C 2007 CRL 10 (2) area 2. Within the DNA profile of MM there are 20 DNA components represented by 19 peaks on a chart. At one of the areas of DNA we routinely examine MM has inherited the same DNA components from both parents; this appears therefore as 1 peak rather than 2, hence 19 rather than 20.
    Of these 19 components 15 are present within the result from this item; there are 37 components in total. There are 37 components because there are at least 3 contributors; but there could be up to 5 contributors.

    In my opinion therefore this result is too complex for meaningful interpretation/inclusion.


    Why?.....

    Well let's look at the question that is being asked.

    "Is there DNA from MM on the swab?"

    It would be very simple to say "yes" simply because of the number of components within the result that are also in her reference sample.

    What we need to consider, as scientists, is whether the match is genuine and legitimate; because M has deposited DNA as a result of being in the car or whether M merely appears to match the result by chance. The individual components in M profile are not unique to her; it is the specific combination of 19 components that makes her profile unique above all others. Elements of M profile are also present within the profiles of many of the scientists here in Birmingham, myself included.

    It's important to stress that 50% of M profile will be shared with each parent. It is not possible in a mixture of more than 2 people, to determine or evaluate which specific DNA components pair with each other. Namely we cannot separate the components out into 3 individual DNA profiles.

    Therefore, we cannot answer the question: is the match genuine or is it a chance match.

    The same applies to any result that is quoted as being too complex for meaningful inclusion/interpretation.

    What questions will we never be able to answer with LCN DNA profiling?

    When was DNA deposited?
    How was DNA deposited?
    What body fluid(s) does the DNA originate from?
    Was a crime committed?

    These along with all other results, will be formalised in a final report.
    Taken from those e-mails:

    "Of these 19 components 15 are present within the result from this item; there are 37 components in total. There are 37 components because there are at least 3 contributors; but there could be up to 5 contributors."

    If I'm reading correctly, and I might not, since I'm not a DNA expert, some of those samples contain DNA from 3 people, but 15 of 19 are the same from Maddie. So, let's see (and here is where I might be wrong), 3 people and up to five. Well, there's the mother and father, and their still alive. There are the twins, and their still alive, now WHO does that leave out?

    Maddie.

    If I'm wrong (since I'm no DNA expert), someone who might be more familiar with this, please correct me.

    and, about the cover up, I didn't mean the Portugal Police or government are in on the cover-up, I meant The British only. As to why their re-opening the case, well, to please the McCann's, but I'm under the impression the Portugal government is well aware of who they think are the perps.


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  12. #384
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    from what I understand on this - there was no 100% match on Maddies DNA - we all as humans share the same DNA - what makes DNA unique is the specific order and combination of DNA samples that make a match that would be billion to one chance of being wrong. From what we read here they couldnt even get down to saying it was her DNA - it could have been but it could have been up to 5 other people - and when you think she shares 50% DNA with both parents and siblings - that is not surprising . So as I interpret this - the FSS could not say that this was a match to Maddy. - it might have been but it might have been parents - they just didnt know

    The other point that I always thought of is IF a dead Maddy had been transported in the boot/trunk of the car - you would not have needed a microscope for LCN DNA analysis - you could probably scooped it up by hand !!

    If we say it was just the British who covered this up - is this the police and goverment ? and they would still have had to involve somone in the Portugese system as they had the case in their country under their law - so it would stil, involve collusion between two nations at high levels - again the 100$ question why ??

    In the Uk at the moment we are going through a huge scandal with phone hacking where the press were found to have hacked mobile phones lots coming out with resignations everywhere - I just think that if there was a sniff of something illegal here someone would have found out
    Last edited by gord; 05-09-2012 at 09:23 AM. Reason: spelling


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  14. #385
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    Quote Originally Posted by gord View Post
    So as I interpret this - the FSS could not say that this was a match to Maddy. - it might have been but it might have been parents - they just didnt know
    Exactly...that's what I was getting at.

    You have a cadaver hit, then you test the DNA and it can be one of 5 people.
    Maddie, the twins, or the parents. That's the 5.

    Guess who is still alive and accounted for?

    The parents and twins. So, who could have been the cadaver?
    Well, there's only one out of the 5 not accounted for, and that's Maddie.

    It's the same as the Caylee Anthony case. Who's death hair was in the trunk that also had a cadaver hit from a dog?

    Well, it could have been one of 3 people, and two are still living, Casey and her mom. So, the assumption is it's Caylee's death hair.

    The same for the DNA samples in the Maddie case....all the rest she shared DNA with are alive and accounted for.


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  16. #386
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    It doesn't work like that the samples they found all could have come from the parents our siblings it want a dead persons DNA it was just a minute sample of body fluid or tissue they couldn't just discount the parents. If this was a match then the parents would have been charged I think.the parents and siblings DNA was all over that car. The fss couldn't tell the diff


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  18. #387
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    Quote Originally Posted by gord View Post
    It doesn't work like that the samples they found all could have come from the parents our siblings it want a dead persons DNA it was just a minute sample of body fluid or tissue they couldn't just discount the parents. If this was a match then the parents would have been charged I think.the parents and siblings DNA was all over that car. The fss couldn't tell the diff

    I know it doesn't work that way, but the way I see it is, you have a cadaver dog hit on the spot they get DNA from.

    No one died there previously (that according to records of the resort).

    Then, you have a missing child, and 4 of the 5 who match the DNA are accounted for.

    In my mind, that leaves a deceased Maddie being there at one point.

    I know it's not enough to convict though.

    JMO.


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  20. #388
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    Quote Originally Posted by rpgman View Post
    I know it doesn't work that way, but the way I see it is, you have a cadaver dog hit on the spot they get DNA from.

    No one died there previously (that according to records of the resort).

    Then, you have a missing child, and 4 of the 5 who match the DNA are accounted for.

    In my mind, that leaves a deceased Maddie being there at one point.

    I know it's not enough to convict though.

    http://www.mccannfiles.com/id268.html
    A complex LCN DNA result which appeared to have originated from at least three people was obtained from cellular material recovered from the luggage compartment section 286C 2007 CRL10 (2) area 2. Within the DNA profile of Madeline McCann there are 20 DNA components represented by 19 peaks on a chart. At one of the areas of DNA we routinely examine Madeleine has inherited the same DNA component from both parents; this appears therefore as 1 peak rather than 2, hence 19 rather than 20. Of these 19 components 15 are present within the result from this item; there are 37 components in total. There are 37 components because there are at least 3 contributors; but there could be up to five contributors. In my opinion therefore this result is too complex for meaningful interpretation/inclusion.

    Why?...

    Well, lets look at the question that is being asked

    "Is there DNA from Madeline on the swab?"

    It would be very simple to say "yes" simply because of the number of components within the result that are also in her reference sample.


    What we need to consider, as scientists, is whether the match is genuine and legitimate; because Madeline has deposited DNA as a result of being in the car or whether Madeline merely appears to match the result by chance.
    If that material was indeed taken from the spot in the luggage compartment where the cadaver (!) dog alerted, it strikes as odd that Lowe seems to ignore the crucial significance which this has for the report.


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  22. #389
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    Quote Originally Posted by rashomon View Post
    If that material was indeed taken from the spot in the luggage compartment where the cadaver (!) dog alerted, it strikes as odd that Lowe seems to ignore the crucial significance which this has for the report.
    Exactly.
    But the question is WHY does he ignore it?

    The only answer I can come up with is a cover up.

    Sent from my VM670 using Tapatalk 2


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  24. #390
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    http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...stigation.html

    Earlier this week, the Olive Press launched their own investigation into Sissalís sighting and discovered that a German couple had checked into the campground on May 6, three days after Madeleineís disappearance. The family had originally booked for two adults and two children, but the campground confirmed that they paid an extra fee to add a third child at the time they checked.

    They registered under the name Karsten Mayer and stayed at the campground until May 18, 2007. The campground confirmed to the Olive Press that their car license-plate number was registered in Germany and started with BEówhich may mean it was a fake plate since those letters have not been issued in Germany since 1974, and the car they were driving was a blue 1996 Mercedes Vita minivan. They were also towing a camping trailer.

    Campground officials told the Olive Press that they have still never been contacted by investigators from any country about Sissalís sighting.


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