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  1. #1
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    Exclamation The Remains Discovery "Daisy Chain"

    I posted the following piece of speculation yesterday evening but it kind of got swamped by a blizzard of other posts. I think it is interesting to stand back and see if we can trace the true "daisy chain" of information that led to the remains discovery, whether it be LP's theory or some other theory.

    What follows is my theory - updated since I posted last night.


    What we know is Kiomarie was interviewed at nearly 10PM on July 19. Kio grew up on Hopespring drive and her dad still lives there. Kio has a friend named Bailey who also lives on Hopespring very close to the Anthony's. Bailey had already spoken to Brian B. and learned he had spoken to LE about the shovel. So Kio and Brian get to talking about KC, and when Kio heard about the shovel, she starts thinking about the secret hiding area off Suburban. Bailey calls Brian and gets the detective's phone number, gives it to Kio, and Kio calls the detective.

    Neighbors are obviously talking. It probably does not take long for word to spread about Kio's interview and suspicions about the woods off Suburban. Maybe neighbors kind of are convinced that the area is a high-probability area, but are afraid to spend a lot of time searching themselves because 1) they are neighbors and 2) they figure LE will be able to do it.

    So LE does an initial search of the accessible areas (some of it was too wet), and they come up empty. TES comes out and searches same area - no luck. Problem is - as we know today - the body was not quite in the spot Kio had pointed out. In fact it was several hundred yards away, up the street close to Hopespring.

    Neighbors though remain convinced that area is a highly probable area. They know of Kio's story. They know of the shovel. They know TES and LE could not get into all areas. They are unconvinced the unsuccessful searches to date have ruled out the area.

    Now throw into the mix speculation that the MR's supervisor is also a neighbor of the Anthony's. Since neighbor's are talking and still think the body could be found up there, the supervisor speaks to his good buddy the MR and asks him to take a look when he does his route. He may even have assigned him specifically to do that route in August just because he is trusted. An official utility vehicle parked up in that area would not look suspicious.

    So the MR takes a look and finds a suspicious-looking bag. We know he called it in three times, and the bag was not located:

    1. LE first says they searched and cleared the area (as noted above, they cleared an area several hundred yards away).
    2. They go out again (possibly with a dog) and find nothing. Unknown exactly were this was done, but probably still a hundred yards or so away. If one listens to the MR 911 calls, the location description is vague enough to allow LE to miss the spot.
    3. They go out a third and final time. MR points to the area and LE heads back, sees a big rattlesnake, and decides it might be best to come back later. Oh, and by the way, there is loads of garbage back there.

    Fay comes in, floods the area, and no searches can be done until early November. Note that rumor has it Kronk was not on that route in Sept., Oct., or Nov., implying to me someone assigned to him that route to check things out.

    This next bit of speculation is going to infuriate a lot of Lee haters here when they read what I am thinking. (I think Lee is getting a bum rap from the public).

    Meantime, Lee, I believe, is not drinking the KC Koolaide the way Cindy is. He knows KC did something. He does not know the details, but has suspicions, and does his best to pull information from KC without raising her ire and having her shut him out. He loved Caylee and wants to know the truth. He gets enough KC code to believe her body is nearby, but again no details.

    Lee becomes aware of Kio's and the neighbor's suspicions.
    With what KC implied, the general location makes perfect sense. He knows LE and TES searched in that area but maybe they were not in the right spot. Maybe he is involved in lining up other silent searches, including that of the MR, or maybe he just hears about the MR's finding and subsequent failure of LE to locate the body. On the one hand he knows LE and others have searched and declared it clear - should trust that coming from LE, right?? On the other hand, the MR did say he found something. After Fay, this gets filed in the back of his mind.

    Meanwhile, Lee loves his mom but feels she is in a deep denial over KC's crime. He knows - feels - KC did something to Caylee. While mom is stuck in the first stage of grief (denial), Lee is entering the second stage (anger). It shows as he tries to protect the parents he loves, and the public backlash is vicious. He starts to drop from public view. He does not want to get caught up in the maelstrom Cindy is creating.

    In early Nov. TES finally can get out and do a search. But they find nothing and pull out earlier than expected.

    Bewildered, Lee talks to the PI working for his parents.
    I speculate the conversation went something like this:

    "Look, there was a MR out up on Suburban back in August near the area Kio pointed out, and he found a very suspicious bag. LE went out there with cadaver dogs but could not find it. They were not in the right spot. So the MR met them out there but they could not get into the area because of a rattlesnake. They wanted to try again but Fay came along. This past weekend TES went up there, but once again we think they were too far up in the area of the school.

    As I understand it, the MR found the bag somewhere along Suburban between the corner at Hopespring and before the school. The area there is really dense with brush and it would be difficult to see anything. But I am convinced at this point that the location - of any that have been discussed - is the one that makes most sense. I am also convinced Caylee is dead, and we need to stop this wild goose chase my mother is on. I'm not sure of the exact location, but can you check it out for me?"
    Lee convinces PI Casey that Caylee is dead and they need to look for a body. So the two PIs hike up there two times to look and video-tape, and PI Casey goes up another two times alone. The information they have is that Caylee's body was found in August, but not recovered. They find nothing. PI Casey calls Lee several times and asks if he can help nail the exact spot down, because they are not seeing anything but thick brush and unrelated trash. Given only 10 minutes of video were recorded, none of the searches may have been very long.

    They are very close, but not quite in the right spot, and they fail to locate the remains. They report back to Lee: nothing.

    Nejame catches wind that Lee sent the PIs up there and he decides he has had enough. Time to bail out. It appears the Anthony's privately think the child is dead but publicly berate LE for not searching for a live Caylee. Well, Lee believes she is dead, and probably George does too, but Cindy won't admit it. He's had enough and resigns.

    At this point Lee is thinking: LE looked several times. TES looked several times. My PI looked several times. No one could find the bag. The only one who ever saw the bag was the MR. In order to put this thing to rest, we need him to look one more time.

    Lee gets word back to the supervisor neighbor and tells him the PI's could find nothing.
    Can we get the MR back out there? So the supervisor reasigns the MR to the route and asks him to see if the bag is still there. The route is scheduled for the 11th of every month, so they have missed the November slot, but he'll be assigned to the route on Dec. 11.

    The MR goes back on the route, finds the bag, sees the skull...and Caylee is brought home.
    Now one of the PIs brags to his good buddy LP about the trips they made to that same area and found nothing, and the circus begins again.

    The key piece of the above puzzle is confirming or denying a link between the neighbors and the MR. The "supervisor as neighbor" is one possible link. Another possible link is "MR chats up neighbor". But a link needs to exist for the above theory to make sense.

    The daisy chain, as I see it, is:

    1. Kio - Bailey - Brian B. - Kio - detective - TES. Failure to find the remains starts a second chain.
    2. Lee - neighbors - supervisor - MR - LE. Failure to find the remains starts a third chain.
    3. TES. Failure to find the remains starts a fourth chain.
    4. Lee - PI - Lee - supervisor - MR. Success.

    IMHO

  2. #2
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    I have suspicions about the A family members and the PI's, based on my feelings about what we've seen so far, what their attitudes and interests seem to be in this case. The link up with the MR just seems much more tenuous as part of the mix. It would require inside knowledge from as far back as August, multiple conspirators, then compounded by possible LE error, etc., leading to the delay until December. The Kio idea of a possible place to search has been out there for ages, and is an "innocent" genesis of an idea to search. I can see the MM, an outsider, being much more likely to have been motivated by this (as were a lot of smart websleuths). This could of course be totally wrong, but just makes more inherent sense to me. LP talks about a source at the jail, there is talk of LA as a source, theories that MM was reading the A meter beneath open windows and heard something, etc. I just can't get my mind to go there, other than on the basis that this is a crazy case so why not.

    It seems much more likely to me, when you have the former defense PI/current family PI, along with another family functionary (despite the denials by DC) that these were the people acting on inside information.

  3. #3
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    I don't know yet if I buy the connection between Lee and the neighbor.

    But something I remembered after reading your thoughts is that MR called his supervisor before calling the police after he made the final discovery.

    Hello? Who would do that?

    To me it gives credence to him being directed by his supervisor to do the search.

    IMO, the supervisor, if a neighbor of the Anthonys or not, could have directed MR on his own hunch. Completely plausible.
    ...the truth and Ms. Anthony are strangers ~ Judge Stan Strickland
    It is true that you may fool all of the people some of the time; you can even fool some of the people all of the time; but you can't fool all of the people all of the time. ~Abraham Lincoln
    IMO, the minivan and the blanket are key to Haleigh Cummings' disappearance...

  4. #4
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    I think this is highly plausible. I really don't think the Anthony family with the exception of KC would let Caylee lie out there for so long if they knew exactly where she was. I believe they have been in denial, but probably felt deep down she was gone. The sightings, failure of searches, etc helped this denial along. Good theory, JWG. Lee is one, that I believe, is trying to work with LE.

  5. #5
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    I'm resorting back to the call that took place between KC and LA on July 26th.. Now that I'm going back and reading this again I have a better understanding with all the recent news dealing with these P.I's possibly ... taking into consideration when MR claims he first called in the tip in August... Shorty after didn't Lee sort of Dissappear? The blue is KC and LA the red are my thoughts.


    LEE: Hey Casey are you there

    Hey. Yeah I’m here

    LEE: Sorry my cell phone reception is terrible

    CASEY: It sucks at the house I know


    LEE: I still want you to know that you can call me and I’ll try you know get as much out there as I can before anything, what ever dies. I know it s not a good situation , you know what can we do. You know ( What ever dies? Are they refering to Caylee, Maybe KC told LA she knew were Caylee was? )

    CASEY: Yeah absolutely

    LEE: Um, so do you understand what I was trying to say for that, that you know, you can reach out to them ( Them = P.I's Possible DC & JH?) and they, I know that you said that when we did visitation and I want you to know that you don’t have to necessarily have to put everything through your attorney if you feel like you wanted to speak to them about anything at all, you can still request that he be there, but he doesn’t have to and you don’t have to do that through him

    CASEY: Oh I know. But that’s something we had talked about yesterday actually

    LEE: Ok good. Do you plan on speaking with any of those guys at all? ( The P.I's?)

    CASEY: We’re going to set up a meeting for Monday, Jose was going to think about stuff, how we were going to set things up over the weekend. He was going to be here with me when we bring then in, um, you know and as far as what I answer, how I answer, you know how all that goes down he was going to figure that out this weekend. He was actually going to come up either today or tomorrow and bring a couple of the videos I guess for me to watch from some of the news stuff that’s been going on, I guess some of the talk shows. Just to try to update me on some of the stuff. Plus he wanted me wanted me to get a good laugh. ( Maybe JB was careful as to what KC was allowed to tell the P.I.'s incase they came forward any time in the future?)


    LEE: So, is there anything? I know we had spoken before and you understand how all this works, now. but do you have anything that you can, you know, tell me, that would help?
    ( Is he asking for the location of the body?)


    CASEY: There’s nothing I can think of at the moment. I’m actually going to try and get something together, you know today so I can write a couple letters to the family. I’m even going to get with (intelligible) and stuff to see if he does get that directly. But still put out my own specific so if anything happens, if there’s any lapse you still will get what I’m trying to put across too.
    ( By Lapse does she mean she will fill in the missing info with a 2nd letter sent later?)


    LEE: And just remember that if you give it to the attorney…. ( He may not forward the letter if too direct)

    CASEY: They can read it and choose whether or not to even fix it which is why I’ll do a secondary letter to make sure it’s direct ]( secondary possibly to LA through mail without Attorney?)
    LEE: Perfect I would encourage that 110 percent. So is there anything specifically, I know you’re going to meet with, you know the investigators and everything, you know. Is there anything specifically the details that you want to clarify to me now so that I’m following up on my own leads and my own information, putting the stuff together, you know then I can start working on it now? ]( LA has own leads serperate from everyone else? No kidding huh)

    CASEY: Um, at the moment there’s nothing specific or nothing that you know should probably be said here. Um, again I’ll put something together before I see Jose or when I see Jose and you know make sure that I have something also to put out. ( Can’t talk about it now, too risky ) LEE: Right.

    CASEY: So that way you can get whatever you like ( Move /take something? )

    LEE: Ok. And just so remember when you get to talk to those guys um, you know, you mentioned that you’re going to have your prep and everything with Jose. But remember truth don’t hurt. ( Those guys being the PI’s?)

    CASEY: I know but there are some things that I have told them that were misconstrued and not used to their benefit. I gave them the same resources that I gave you and you found out a hundred more things then they did. And they were given the same information. So it’s just about the approach I guess and using the resources to their full extent. Again I’m everybody’s biggest resource; you have said that, Jose has said that, mom and dad have said that.


    LEE: Right but at the same time we still we just need to figure out how we can be clear on what ever we’re giving to them, so even if we have to you know speak very direct or we can’t really speak in generalities with them, with anybody is what I’m finding out . Or if we tell them I’m not completely sure on the spelling or I’m not completely sure on this or that. They take everything exactly up front to the ‘T’. Exactly how you provide it. So if it’s off at all they don’t even think to look in any other areas ….( LA explaining that he and KC need to be on the same page as to what she is going to tell them,etc. )

    CASEY: That’s why I gave them things multiple times. Each officer I gave the same information at least two or three times, I’ve done the same thing with you, the same thing with mom, the same thing with Jose. Everyone has the same information, same spelling, same names. None of that has altered because that’s it


    LEE: What do you think, where do you think. You think Caylee’s ok right now? ( Notice he first ask “what then where do you think.” He realizes he’s about to have his sister answer an incriminating question so he then says is she okay?)

    KC: My gut feeling? As mom asked me yesterday and even Jose asked me last night, the psychologist asked me this morning that I got through the court, um in my gut she’s still ok. And it still feels like she’s close to home. ( She follows up with she’s okay - and then gives a LOCATION!)

    LEE: Ok ( Now he know’s where to start looking )

  6. #6
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    Why was the MR in that particular spot? There are no meters there, because it is a highly wooded area. No houses, businesses, and too far from the school to read a meter, when he could park right by the school to do that. IIRC, the road dead ends not far from where the remains were found.
    I don't know who was in this "daisy chain" but it is my belief that the Anthonys did not know beforehand that Caylee's remains were in that spot. Lee.... maybe... but I don't think George or Cindy would have let her body lay out there and decompose, and I find it unlikely that Lee would have gone that far to protect his sister.
    But I do wonder if someone tipped off the MR and that's why he went back, AFTER the flood waters receded.
    How does LP know that the supervisor of the MR is a neighbor? Has this been confirmed by anyone in LE?
    I recall LP saying on NG that the remains had to be recovered while Casey was in jail. I don't know what his reasons for that were. But Casey went back to jail for good in Oct. Why were they not recovered between then and Dec.?
    Keep in mind... there might not BE a daisy chain. It could all be just sheer chance that the MR ran across that bag when he did. Pure luck. If so many people KNEW the remains were there all that time, why didn't they go find her? Why wait so long to do the deed? None of it makes sense to me, except I am glad she was found and will soon be laid to rest.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElizaAvalon View Post
    I don't know yet if I buy the connection between Lee and the neighbor.

    But something I remembered after reading your thoughts is that MR called his supervisor before calling the police after he made the final discovery.

    Hello? Who would do that?

    To me it gives credence to him being directed by his supervisor to do the search.

    IMO, the supervisor, if a neighbor of the Anthonys or not, could have directed MR on his own hunch. Completely plausible.
    Bolded italics by me. I would have done that too. I worked for a state agency for a long time. Following the chain of command would have been very important. You call your supervisor first.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElizaAvalon View Post
    I don't know yet if I buy the connection between Lee and the neighbor.

    But something I remembered after reading your thoughts is that MR called his supervisor before calling the police after he made the final discovery.

    Hello? Who would do that?

    To me it gives credence to him being directed by his supervisor to do the search.

    IMO, the supervisor, if a neighbor of the Anthonys or not, could have directed MR on his own hunch. Completely plausible.
    Per your bolded: Because apparently LE didn't take him seriously back in August. It would sound more credible for the supervisor to call. I think LP said there were two more MR's with him when the bag was found.
    Maybe the supervisor urged him to go back to that spot and see what he could find, after the first 3 calls were unsuccessful.
    His statement to the dispatcher about wanting to stay anonymous, and them telling him he still could, and the reply "not if they find a freakin' body"... that is very strange to me. Who would say something like that? This man seemed to be very determined, and I am not saying he is a part of a conspiracy... but the whole thing is odd to me.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by amethyst221 View Post
    I have suspicions about the A family members and the PI's, based on my feelings about what we've seen so far, what their attitudes and interests seem to be in this case. The link up with the MR just seems much more tenuous as part of the mix. It would require inside knowledge from as far back as August, multiple conspirators, then compounded by possible LE error, etc., leading to the delay until December. The Kio idea of a possible place to search has been out there for ages, and is an "innocent" genesis of an idea to search. I can see the MM, an outsider, being much more likely to have been motivated by this (as were a lot of smart websleuths). This could of course be totally wrong, but just makes more inherent sense to me. LP talks about a source at the jail, there is talk of LA as a source, theories that MM was reading the A meter beneath open windows and heard something, etc. I just can't get my mind to go there, other than on the basis that this is a crazy case so why not.

    It seems much more likely to me, when you have the former defense PI/current family PI, along with another family functionary (despite the denials by DC) that these were the people acting on inside information.
    A big difference, perhaps, with how I am looking at this is not as a conspiracy.

    My guiding thoughts:

    Lee, Kio, and the neighbors were all interviewed by LE. Lee several times. They are all talking amongst themselves - this is mentioned in several of the interviews. IMHO, they are all - including Lee - trying to help. They have given LE their best guesses.

    The MR did not try to hide the fact he saw something - he called it in three times.

    The PI's were not trying to do a clandestine search. They went up there in broad daylight multiple times with camcorders. When they did not find anything were they supposed to call that in and let LE know? "Hey guys...we looked in the same spot you did a bunch of times and could not find anything either."

    JMO

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by TxLady2 View Post
    Because apparently LE didn't take him seriously back in August.

    Maybe the supervisor urged him to go back to that spot and see what he could find, after the first 3 calls were unsuccessful.
    LE met the MR at the location on Aug 13. What we don't know is if the MR expressed satisfaction to the officer(s) with whatever inspection was done on Aug 13.


  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weffy View Post
    I'm resorting back to the call that took place between KC and LA on July 26th.. Now that I'm going back and reading this again I have a better understanding with all the recent news dealing with these P.I's possibly ... taking into consideration when MR claims he first called in the tip in August... Shorty after didn't Lee sort of Dissappear? The blue is KC and LA the red are my thoughts.


    KC: My gut feeling? As mom asked me yesterday and even Jose asked me last night, the psychologist asked me this morning that I got through the court, um in my gut she’s still ok. And it still feels like she’s close to home. ( She follows up with she’s okay - and then gives a LOCATION!)

    LEE: Ok ( Now he know’s where to start looking )
    snipped

    NO... she did not give him a location where Caylee's body was, if that is what you meant. Those calls were recorded, and if she had given Lee a location to find Caylee's remains... the LE would have been informed and Caylee would have been found back then.... not in Dec.
    Remember at this time, Casey was letting her family and everyone else believe Caylee was kidnapped... Lee was looking for a live Caylee, and trying to pinpoint where ZFG could have taken her.
    I don't believe Casey ever told Lee or anybody else where she put Caylee's body. If she had, they would have found her before they did, and that would ensure that she would get the death penalty. She is not that stupid.

  12. #12
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    From JWG's first post :

    What we know is Kiomarie was interviewed at nearly 10PM on July 19. Kio grew up on Hopespring drive and her dad still lives there. Kio has a friend named Bailey who also lives on Hopespring very close to the Anthony's. Bailey had already spoken to Brian B. and learned he had spoken to LE about the shovel. So Kio and Brian get to talking about KC, and when Kio heard about the shovel, she starts thinking about the secret hiding area off Suburban. Bailey calls Brian and gets the detective's phone number, gives it to Kio, and Kio calls the detective.

    Sorry, hope you don't mind, I snipped and bolded....

    What keeps getting me in all of this is.....Kio meet with LE in the school parking lot and did an interview and basically showed where the "hang out" was.
    All these PI's keep talking about a "friends tip" about "the area"....IF they're talking about "Kio's tip", she told/showed LE the REAL area back by the school. If I understand correctly, the area where Caylee's remains were found is quite a bit away from that area behind the school - although not really that far.
    I guess I keep questioning THAT area where Casey and Hoover were looking/videoing....it's NOT the area Kio talked about to LE. That's what makes me really question "what exactly were they doing right THERE" ???

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weffy View Post
    I'm resorting back to the call that took place between KC and LA on July 26th.. Now that I'm going back and reading this again I have a better understanding with all the recent news dealing with these P.I's possibly ... taking into consideration when MR claims he first called in the tip in August... Shorty after didn't Lee sort of Dissappear? The blue is KC and LA the red are my thoughts.
    IMHO, given that this conversation took place in July, I think LA was trying to do his best to tell KC she should and could try cooperating with LE more, without coming right out and saying so and causing her to fly off the handle with him.

  14. #14
    Weren't "familiar place" and "lower left" mentioned to Lee by Casey in one visit? I thought immediately it sounded as if someone were giving directions from a map instead of it being discussion of someone who knew the city well, as they both did. I thought it was quite odd at the time.

    Standing in the A fam's backyard...Caylee was found in the "lower left" of the area which was very familiar to both Lee and Casey.
    "WE SEEK FOR THE TRUTH. WE SEEK JUSTICE.
    THE COURTS REQUIRE IT. THE VICTIMS CRY FOR IT
    AND GOD DEMANDS IT!"

    A quote spray painted on the wall by search
    and rescue workers, Team 5, at the OKC Bombing site 4-19-1995.



    What I post are my opinions only.

  15. #15
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    IIRC Lee's attorney stated on NG last night that the area where the body was found was never a place where they hung out. He said according to Lee it had always been fenced off and private property. How can they try to float that since there are lots of people saying that had been a teen hangout?

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