775 users online (104 members and 671 guests)  


The Killing Season - Websleuths

Websleuths News


Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 30
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Cleveland, Ohio
    Posts
    3,457

    John Douglas "The Anatomy of Motive"

    Mods - OK to move to another thread if you think it fits better there...

    I knew I had this book somewhere and I finally found it...

    Towards the end of his book "The Anatomy of Motive" reknowned profiler John Douglas gives several demonstration exercises at the back of the book on profiling...When I heard this story I immediately thought of one of them, just want to include as much of his vignette as I can here without plagiarizing so that you can see what he says about this type of case...

    Beginning on page 303, John's example case is a single mom and 2 year old daughter getting ready to go visit mom's boyfriend on his jobsite, almost ready to walk out the door when mom cuts her hand pretty good on a kitchen knife...by the time she cleans and bandages her hand and cleans up the mess she comes out of the bathroom and her daughter isn't there...After frantically searching the area mom calls 911 to report that someone has kidnapped her daughter...Police come search, find nothing, then a few days later mom calls and says she recieved one of the girls mittens in the mail from the kidnapper - no note, just the mittens...The fictional profiler in this case tells the cops to lean on mom, they do and she confesses...How, John asks, did they know it was mom?? Some quotes from the book:

    "There are a couple of elements that arouse suspicion. The first is that the mother left the child alone..." (Or in our case with an imaginary nanny)
    "The second is that when she called 911 she told the operator her baby had been kidnapped. This is such a horrible thing for parents to even contemplate that most of them will consciously or subconsciously suppress it as long as they can" (How does this compare to the initial 911 calls re Caylee?)

    "We'd also pay some attention to Ms. Singer's situation..." (it's okay I used her last name mods, she's fictional anyway) ..."she is a young single mother who is becoming increasingly involved with a single man without children"

    He goes on to say "There are really only three cases in which children are taken by strangers" He lists the three types as kidnappers seeking ransom, kidnappers who intend to harm children for their own gratification, and people who can't or don't have children of their own, but are so desperately in want of them as to kidnap them... It's worth noting none of these situations sound like what Casey described...

    He goes on to say that the motive in this case is that mom is missing out on the fun of young life and either from something he said or from something she percieves, the mom believes that she has to choose between the relationship with her man and the child, and she chooses the man...He says its "not all that uncommon".

    So there you go...I said that I was sure the FBI have developed a profile on this case, which we have yet to see, but it's clear that John Douglas developed a profile for a very similar fictional case that I think may fit this case quite well also...Just thought WSers may be interested to read.

    Side Note: The entire book is really quite good...I would highly recommend buying it or checking it out at your local library.

  2. #2
    Thanks for sharing this, it sounds interesting....

    Reminds me of Susan Smith...UGH

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    State of Disbelief. SC
    Posts
    12,078
    Very interesting indeed! Thanks for posting this scenario. What is this book about, I'm definitely interested!
    Say what you mean, mean what you say, but don't say it mean.
    We are all just trying to make sense of an unimaginable crime.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    10,875
    Quote Originally Posted by Irish_Eyes View Post
    Mods - OK to move to another thread if you think it fits better there...

    I knew I had this book somewhere and I finally found it...

    Towards the end of his book "The Anatomy of Motive" reknowned profiler John Douglas gives several demonstration exercises at the back of the book on profiling...When I heard this story I immediately thought of one of them, just want to include as much of his vignette as I can here without plagiarizing so that you can see what he says about this type of case...

    Beginning on page 303, John's example case is a single mom and 2 year old daughter getting ready to go visit mom's boyfriend on his jobsite, almost ready to walk out the door when mom cuts her hand pretty good on a kitchen knife...by the time she cleans and bandages her hand and cleans up the mess she comes out of the bathroom and her daughter isn't there...After frantically searching the area mom calls 911 to report that someone has kidnapped her daughter...Police come search, find nothing, then a few days later mom calls and says she recieved one of the girls mittens in the mail from the kidnapper - no note, just the mittens...The fictional profiler in this case tells the cops to lean on mom, they do and she confesses...How, John asks, did they know it was mom?? Some quotes from the book:

    "There are a couple of elements that arouse suspicion. The first is that the mother left the child alone..." (Or in our case with an imaginary nanny)
    "The second is that when she called 911 she told the operator her baby had been kidnapped. This is such a horrible thing for parents to even contemplate that most of them will consciously or subconsciously suppress it as long as they can" (How does this compare to the initial 911 calls re Caylee?)

    "We'd also pay some attention to Ms. Singer's situation..." (it's okay I used her last name mods, she's fictional anyway) ..."she is a young single mother who is becoming increasingly involved with a single man without children"

    He goes on to say "There are really only three cases in which children are taken by strangers" He lists the three types as kidnappers seeking ransom, kidnappers who intend to harm children for their own gratification, and people who can't or don't have children of their own, but are so desperately in want of them as to kidnap them... It's worth noting none of these situations sound like what Casey described...

    He goes on to say that the motive in this case is that mom is missing out on the fun of young life and either from something he said or from something she percieves, the mom believes that she has to choose between the relationship with her man and the child, and she chooses the man...He says its "not all that uncommon".

    So there you go...I said that I was sure the FBI have developed a profile on this case, which we have yet to see, but it's clear that John Douglas developed a profile for a very similar fictional case that I think may fit this case quite well also...Just thought WSers may be interested to read.

    Side Note: The entire book is really quite good...I would highly recommend buying it or checking it out at your local library.
    Excellent find. The parallels are quite interesting to think about.

    IIRC, John Douglas was pivotal in really launching profiling to begin with, wasn't he? Must get that book.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    857
    I have read alot of books by John Douglas and they are really very interesting. He is the FBI profiler that was instrumental in starting the FBI's behavioral science unit at Quantico - so he really knows his stuff. He isn't exactly shy about telling you how great he is either...LOL...you have to look past that in his books, which isn't always easy to do! But once you do, you will really enjoy them if you are a crime buff.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    10,875
    TY, TxRose, that was what I vaguely recalled.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Who Dat Nation
    Posts
    29,867
    I love John Douglas's books. I used to devour them. It's been awhile since I read this one, though, so I didn't make the connection. I might have to go pull out my copy and read it again. The example you cited sure fits the bill in this case. Thanks for posting.
    __________________________________
    Muddy water in the street
    ; Muddy water 'round my feet... as sung by the inimitable Bessie Smith, "Muddy Water (A Mississippi Moan)"

    WEBSLEUTHS ON FACEBOOK



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Who Dat Nation
    Posts
    29,867
    Quote Originally Posted by TxRose View Post
    I have read alot of books by John Douglas and they are really very interesting. He is the FBI profiler that was instrumental in starting the FBI's behavioral science unit at Quantico - so he really knows his stuff. He isn't exactly shy about telling you how great he is either...LOL...you have to look past that in his books, which isn't always easy to do! But once you do, you will really enjoy them if you are a crime buff.
    Aww...I like him, but agree he's quite generous with personal details. Seems like a stand up guy, though. Which case was he working when he had the heart attack? Can't remember. But I do recall I cried for him because the case had been wearing so heavily on him. (My memory is shot.)
    Sorry for going OT.
    __________________________________
    Muddy water in the street
    ; Muddy water 'round my feet... as sung by the inimitable Bessie Smith, "Muddy Water (A Mississippi Moan)"

    WEBSLEUTHS ON FACEBOOK



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    558
    Irish, thank you for posting this, and of course the pic of Scarlett, my wife's fave.

    A colleague of mine interviewed Kenneth Lanning, a former long-term colleague of John's. His name came up. Mr. Lanning said Mr. Douglas was the single mist-intutive detective the FBI has ever had, and that he had ever worked with. Off to the library.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    857
    Quote Originally Posted by bessie View Post
    Aww...I like him, but agree he's quite generous with personal details. Seems like a stand up guy, though. Which case was he working when he had the heart attack? Can't remember. But I do recall I cried for him because the case had been wearing so heavily on him. (My memory is shot.)
    Sorry for going OT.

    Oh I like him too......I just sometimes had to bite my tongue while he discussed how right he was about a profile. LOL. But he is a stand up guy...and his work has been a real blessing.

    I believe he had a heart attack too - I think after the Wayne Williams case, (The one where all the kids were killed in Atlanta, Georgia.) He has worked on so many, and interviewed so many serial killers it is hard to keep track...so I may be wrong.

    His books on the minds of serial killers are truly fascinating. That is what has always intrigued me about crime stories - the psychological side of it. I think that is what has me so involved in this Anthony case. Casey (heck the whole Anthony family!) are so bizarre...it is a case study in behavior analysis!


  11. #11
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    1,862
    Thank you, very interesting. I have always enjoyed him, he is pretty good in my book.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    5,971
    Great idea ! I have never read this guys work but agree in that the similarities are amazing. I believe this is the motive the state will go with come trial time, maybe some testimony from Tony (not yet released in the documents) will support this theory ? Just a hunch.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Mountains of western NC
    Posts
    670
    Quote Originally Posted by Irish_Eyes View Post
    Mods - OK to move to another thread if you think it fits better there...

    I knew I had this book somewhere and I finally found it...

    Towards the end of his book "The Anatomy of Motive" reknowned profiler John Douglas gives several demonstration exercises at the back of the book on profiling...When I heard this story I immediately thought of one of them, just want to include as much of his vignette as I can here without plagiarizing so that you can see what he says about this type of case...

    Beginning on page 303, John's example case is a single mom and 2 year old daughter getting ready to go visit mom's boyfriend on his jobsite, almost ready to walk out the door when mom cuts her hand pretty good on a kitchen knife...by the time she cleans and bandages her hand and cleans up the mess she comes out of the bathroom and her daughter isn't there...After frantically searching the area mom calls 911 to report that someone has kidnapped her daughter...Police come search, find nothing, then a few days later mom calls and says she recieved one of the girls mittens in the mail from the kidnapper - no note, just the mittens...The fictional profiler in this case tells the cops to lean on mom, they do and she confesses...How, John asks, did they know it was mom?? Some quotes from the book:

    "There are a couple of elements that arouse suspicion. The first is that the mother left the child alone..." (Or in our case with an imaginary nanny)
    "The second is that when she called 911 she told the operator her baby had been kidnapped. This is such a horrible thing for parents to even contemplate that most of them will consciously or subconsciously suppress it as long as they can" (How does this compare to the initial 911 calls re Caylee?)

    "We'd also pay some attention to Ms. Singer's situation..." (it's okay I used her last name mods, she's fictional anyway) ..."she is a young single mother who is becoming increasingly involved with a single man without children"

    He goes on to say "There are really only three cases in which children are taken by strangers" He lists the three types as kidnappers seeking ransom, kidnappers who intend to harm children for their own gratification, and people who can't or don't have children of their own, but are so desperately in want of them as to kidnap them... It's worth noting none of these situations sound like what Casey described...

    He goes on to say that the motive in this case is that mom is missing out on the fun of young life and either from something he said or from something she percieves, the mom believes that she has to choose between the relationship with her man and the child, and she chooses the man...He says its "not all that uncommon".

    So there you go...I said that I was sure the FBI have developed a profile on this case, which we have yet to see, but it's clear that John Douglas developed a profile for a very similar fictional case that I think may fit this case quite well also...Just thought WSers may be interested to read.

    Side Note: The entire book is really quite good...I would highly recommend buying it or checking it out at your local library.
    Now wouldn't it be just DANDY if the prosecution was using an FBI profiler in their case in chief?? Been hoping that very thing since profiling has become so common in many cases. Remember that the profiler (and IIRC it was John Douglas himself) told prosecutors in the Wayne Williams/Atlanta Child Murder case how to question him on the stand to get him to show his "true" self.??

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    607
    Quote Originally Posted by SCSam View Post
    Now wouldn't it be just DANDY if the prosecution was using an FBI profiler in their case in chief?? Been hoping that very thing since profiling has become so common in many cases. Remember that the profiler (and IIRC it was John Douglas himself) told prosecutors in the Wayne Williams/Atlanta Child Murder case how to question him on the stand to get him to show his "true" self.??
    Read alot of John Douglas Was really hoping they would get him on the scene of this case too! Perhaps they still may...

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    7,522
    Quote Originally Posted by BaileyandBella View Post
    Thanks for sharing this, it sounds interesting....

    Reminds me of Susan Smith...UGH
    And, Diane Downs.
    Age. Fac ut gaudeam

Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast


Similar Threads

  1. USA gymnast Gabby Douglas: Twitter bullying "really hurtful"
    By BetteDavisEyes in forum Bullies and Stalkers
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 08-15-2016, 01:42 PM
  2. Replies: 66
    Last Post: 11-06-2011, 02:11 AM
  3. John Douglas "Discredited"
    By Maxi in forum JonBenet Ramsey
    Replies: 40
    Last Post: 12-26-2003, 08:52 PM