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  1. #1
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    Casey & Family Psychological Profile #4

    Discuss the family dynamics and psychological profiles of Casey and family in a constructive way, please do so here.
    thanks.

    [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70260"]Casey & Family Psychological Profile #1[/ame]

    [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69987"]Casey & Family Psychological Profile #2[/ame]

    [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76453"]Casey & Family Psychological Profile #3[/ame]
    Last edited by BondJamesBond; 01-06-2011 at 11:32 PM.

  2. #2
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    I just read this article and thought it offered a lot of insight into the mind of Casey as well as her parents actions toward her.

    From the article, in regards to Casey:

    Some of the behavior traits of malignant narcissists according to Dr. Sam Vaknin:

    * Feels entitled. Demands automatic and full compliance with his or her unreasonable expectations for special and favorable priority treatment;

    * Is “impersonally exploitative”, i.e., uses others to achieve his or her own ends;

    * Devoid of empathy. Is unable or unwilling to identify with, acknowledge, or accept the feelings, needs, preferences, priorities, and choices of others;

    * Constantly envious of others and seeks to hurt or destroy the objects of his or her frustration. Suffers from persecutory (paranoid) delusions as he or she believes that they feel the same about him or her and are likely to act similarly;

    * Behaves arrogantly and haughtily. Feels superior, omnipotent, omniscient, invincible, immune, “above the law”, and omnipresent (magical thinking). Rages when frustrated, contradicted, or confronted by people he or she considers inferior to him or her and unworthy.

    It's a pretty long article, but well worth the read...

    http://deathby1000papercuts.com/2009...nt-narcissist/

  3. #3
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    Have you ever personally known a person who experiences dillusions? I am fairly close with a person who was diagnosed with a mental illness that was not observable until she had a seizure when she was either 17 or 18. She was initially diagnosed as bipolar, later schizophrenic. I don't think she's schizophrenic, but she has dillusions of people and events that she absolutely and totally believes to be true; however, they are obviously not. Her stories are thorough, and they are consistent (I have known her for about four years). She doesn't tell everyone everything--I have heard more things from one of her very close friends.

    These dillusions of hers do not serve hurtful purposes, I honestly don't know where they come from, or why these particular people and events exist in her mind, but they are very real and significant to her.

    I don't see Casey's behavior after the suspected dates of Caylee's disappearance as relief "to be rid of her daughter", but more that she felt comfortable that her daughter was being taken care of by someone she trusted, as she has said at times. Real, or not real???

    One of the things that highlights the question of mental illness for me is the trip to Universal with LE. I can't imagine a person who is straight-up lying allowing that facade to continue right up to the actual office building. Unfortunately, I have personal experience with some notorious liars, and this part of the story is one of many things that seem to stand out as very odd to me.

    If Casey was responsible for Caylee's death, I can't help but think that there are underlying psychological explanations for this very tangled web.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by mes1955 View Post
    Have you ever personally known a person who experiences dillusions? I am fairly close with a person who was diagnosed with a mental illness that was not observable until she had a seizure when she was either 17 or 18. She was initially diagnosed as bipolar, later schizophrenic. I don't think she's schizophrenic, but she has dillusions of people and events that she absolutely and totally believes to be true; however, they are obviously not. Her stories are thorough, and they are consistent (I have known her for about four years). She doesn't tell everyone everything--I have heard more things from one of her very close friends.

    These dillusions of hers do not serve hurtful purposes, I honestly don't know where they come from, or why these particular people and events exist in her mind, but they are very real and significant to her.

    I don't see Casey's behavior after the suspected dates of Caylee's disappearance as relief "to be rid of her daughter", but more that she felt comfortable that her daughter was being taken care of by someone she trusted, as she has said at times. Real, or not real???

    One of the things that highlights the question of mental illness for me is the trip to Universal with LE. I can't imagine a person who is straight-up lying allowing that facade to continue right up to the actual office building. Unfortunately, I have personal experience with some notorious liars, and this part of the story is one of many things that seem to stand out as very odd to me.

    If Casey was responsible for Caylee's death, I can't help but think that there are underlying psychological explanations for this very tangled web.
    My read on the Universal trip:
    Casey's a pathological liar and her constellation of personality disorders allows her to lie without being inhibited by fear or conscience. (IMO part of her psychopathic personality)

    When LE took Casey to Universal and asked to see her office, they called Casey's bluff. Casey tried to call their bluff by continuing to walk down the hall-- then she couldn't think of a way to sidestep the obvious and just fessed up.

    How would your friend react if guided to the gap between reality and their delusion? A person with an actual delusional disorder will most likely not recognize the gap between reality and their delusional belief. If Casey were delusional, she would have just walked into any office and had the sincerely held belief it was truly her office.

    If a person with delusional disorder is forced to confront the gap between reality and their delusion and they are cognitively equipped to see that gap, they will likely protect and rationalize their delusion with paranoid thought or new persecutory delusions. This will probably be distressing for the patient. In this case, a delusional Casey would panic and insist someone moved her office and that it was there last week. She might accuse someone of conspiring against her to make her look stupid or otherwise harm her. She might grow distressed and say they must be in the wrong building.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by mes1955 View Post
    Have you ever personally known a person who experiences dillusions? I am fairly close with a person who was diagnosed with a mental illness that was not observable until she had a seizure when she was either 17 or 18. She was initially diagnosed as bipolar, later schizophrenic. I don't think she's schizophrenic, but she has dillusions of people and events that she absolutely and totally believes to be true; however, they are obviously not. Her stories are thorough, and they are consistent (I have known her for about four years). She doesn't tell everyone everything--I have heard more things from one of her very close friends.

    These dillusions of hers do not serve hurtful purposes, I honestly don't know where they come from, or why these particular people and events exist in her mind, but they are very real and significant to her.

    I don't see Casey's behavior after the suspected dates of Caylee's disappearance as relief "to be rid of her daughter", but more that she felt comfortable that her daughter was being taken care of by someone she trusted, as she has said at times. Real, or not real???

    One of the things that highlights the question of mental illness for me is the trip to Universal with LE. I can't imagine a person who is straight-up lying allowing that facade to continue right up to the actual office building. Unfortunately, I have personal experience with some notorious liars, and this part of the story is one of many things that seem to stand out as very odd to me.

    If Casey was responsible for Caylee's death, I can't help but think that there are underlying psychological explanations for this very tangled web.
    There are. She's a sociopath. They do not bond. Children are often killed by sociopathic mothers.

    Sociopathy is called "characterological." Meaning that it's a character disorder. Delusion is not an issue.

    And. yes, I have experienced people who are delusional. I'm a psychiatric nurse.

    She knew she didn't work at Universal. If she was delusional, she would have taken them to what she thought was her office.
    Age. Fac ut gaudeam

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brini View Post
    There are. She's a sociopath. They do not bond. Children are ofyen killed by sociopathic mothers.

    She knew she didn't work at Universal. If she was delusional, she would have taken them to what she thought was her office.
    Or she would've appeared confused. She would've shown a visible change of emotion or state of mind that the detectives would've noted. But she didn't skip a beat. As another poster once wrote, she simply ran out of hall.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by mes1955 View Post
    Have you ever personally known a person who experiences dillusions? I am fairly close with a person who was diagnosed with a mental illness that was not observable until she had a seizure when she was either 17 or 18. She was initially diagnosed as bipolar, later schizophrenic. I don't think she's schizophrenic, but she has dillusions of people and events that she absolutely and totally believes to be true; however, they are obviously not. Her stories are thorough, and they are consistent (I have known her for about four years). She doesn't tell everyone everything--I have heard more things from one of her very close friends.

    These dillusions of hers do not serve hurtful purposes, I honestly don't know where they come from, or why these particular people and events exist in her mind, but they are very real and significant to her.

    I don't see Casey's behavior after the suspected dates of Caylee's disappearance as relief "to be rid of her daughter", but more that she felt comfortable that her daughter was being taken care of by someone she trusted, as she has said at times. Real, or not real???

    One of the things that highlights the question of mental illness for me is the trip to Universal with LE. I can't imagine a person who is straight-up lying allowing that facade to continue right up to the actual office building. Unfortunately, I have personal experience with some notorious liars, and this part of the story is one of many things that seem to stand out as very odd to me.

    If Casey was responsible for Caylee's death, I can't help but think that there are underlying psychological explanations for this very tangled web.
    I don't think that Casey could or should be declared mentally ill; however I do think that she has some type of a psychological disorder. I have had people in my life that suffer from various disorders and with one of them I know first hand what its like to encounter a person who is a pathological liar. Without getting into details, this person fooled everyone around them for over 8 years. There was no indication that this person was lying and never in a million years would I have thought that most of everything they said was a lie. These were not minor lies, and in the end this person hurt a lot of people emotionally. He one day called us and gave us the news that his family (daughter, son-in-law and infant grandson) was killed in a car accident. We befriended this person, grieved with him and did everything we could to be there for him, even giving up time with our families because we wanted to help him. We then found out it was all a lie and this man that we knew and saw daily for over 8 years, never had a family. In fact most of everything we knew about him had been a lie. In the end, although he confessed that he made his whole life up and that nothing was true, he told me that in his mind he still felt that it was real. Till this day I find myself grieving at times for a family that never existed.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by nancy botwin View Post
    My read on the Universal trip:
    Casey's a pathological liar and her constellation of personality disorders allows her to lie without being inhibited by fear or conscience. (IMO part of her psychopathic personality)

    When LE took Casey to Universal and asked to see her office, they called Casey's bluff. Casey tried to call their bluff by continuing to walk down the hall-- then she couldn't think of a way to sidestep the obvious and just fessed up.

    How would your friend react if guided to the gap between reality and their delusion? A person with an actual delusional disorder will most likely not recognize the gap between reality and their delusional belief. If Casey were delusional, she would have just walked into any office and had the sincerely held belief it was truly her office.

    If a person with delusional disorder is forced to confront the gap between reality and their delusion and they are cognitively equipped to see that gap, they will likely protect and rationalize their delusion with paranoid thought or new persecutory delusions. This will probably be distressing for the patient. In this case, a delusional Casey would panic and insist someone moved her office and that it was there last week. She might accuse someone of conspiring against her to make her look stupid or otherwise harm her. She might grow distressed and say they must be in the wrong building.
    At some point, when "the pieces" stop fitting together, my friend backs off. She is very accustomed to people questioning and accusing her, and she internalizes her thoughts when she gets "busted". She seems much more comfortable in relating things to new people--I honestly have not witnessed what happens when one of the dillusions confronts the outside world. Others have been privy to these occurrences, but since I know her, I would not pursue those avenues.

    All that aside, I have a question...am I correct that a person with a psychopathic personality is a person with a mental disorder? What's your opinion of a person with a mental disorder being held up to the public in the manner that is occuring with this case? I think this whole scenario is making the general public appear to be very cold and callous--behaviors that resemble the accusations being thrown KC's way. I feel that psychiatric conditions, like medical conditions, should be treated with as much confidentiality as possible. When there are indications of that a mental illness is involved, it seems that the opportunity for microscopic analysis of behavior by total strangers is a violation of privacy, even though this is a murder charge. Most people don't ask to have personality disorders...

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brini View Post
    There are. She's a sociopath. They do not bond. Children are often killed by sociopathic mothers.

    Sociopathy is called "characterological." Meaning that it's a character disorder. Delusion is not an issue.

    And. yes, I have experienced people who are delusional. I'm a psychiatric nurse.

    She knew she didn't work at Universal. If she was delusional, she would have taken them to what she thought was her office.

    Unfortunately, I think psychiatry that does not involve extremes has a tendency to slip through the professional cracks. I believe that people who are not full-blown in their diagnosis find ways to manage to function within the confines of their illness.

  10. #10
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    My experience with two pathological liars: The first one I grew up with lied to aggrandize everything that happen to her in her life. I think she had an inferiority complex at the heart of the matter. Recently I saw her picture on classmates, she has had a lot of plastic surgery. Common everyday life was just never good enough for her.

    The second one was very odd and I should have listened to my first inklings that something was wrong with im. He took me to his condo and there was not one single picture hanging on the wall, or on a shelf, anywhere of anyone. I remember thinking that was weird, like maybe he had no personal attachments in his life, also no food stocked up, freezer empty, cupboards empty except for some gourmet coffee. Then the next thing, before he showed me where the bathroom was, he went on this long soliloquy about knowing a hairdresser who gave him a lot of free sample products. I remeber thinking that it was strange that he would be telling me that, I mean why???? I go in his bathroom and every square inch of it was filled with bottles and soap and styling products. The stuff was hidden in cabinets, in drawers, in the tub, it was just amazingly weird. Well after I got to know him a little better, I learned that he bought all this stuff, would use it once and then was on to the next product line. Make a long story short: This guy lied to everyone about everything. He was married, lied to me about that, had a kid, lied to me about it, lied to his parents about still being with his wife, never told anyone about the condo, kept it as a den to drag his pray into.....He lied about stupid stuff: where he ate lunch, where he went to school, where he had traveled to in his life, just everything and anything. I also believe that an inferiority complex was at the root of his trouble too.

    Somehow, Casey's problems seem more complex to me than just the obvious pathological lying. I think Cindy hit the nail on the button and who would know better than a nurse and her own mother?


  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by maryaok View Post
    My experience with two pathological liars: The first one I grew up with lied to aggrandize everything that happen to her in her life. I think she had an inferiority complex at the heart of the matter. Recently I saw her picture on classmates, she has had a lot of plastic surgery. Common everyday life was just never good enough for her.

    The second one was very odd and I should have listened to my first inklings that something was wrong with im. He took me to his condo and there was not one single picture hanging on the wall, or on a shelf, anywhere of anyone. I remember thinking that was weird, like maybe he had no personal attachments in his life, also no food stocked up, freezer empty, cupboards empty except for some gourmet coffee. Then the next thing, before he showed me where the bathroom was, he went on this long soliloquy about knowing a hairdresser who gave him a lot of free sample products. I remeber thinking that it was strange that he would be telling me that, I mean why???? I go in his bathroom and every square inch of it was filled with bottles and soap and styling products. The stuff was hidden in cabinets, in drawers, in the tub, it was just amazingly weird. Well after I got to know him a little better, I learned that he bought all this stuff, would use it once and then was on to the next product line. Make a long story short: This guy lied to everyone about everything. He was married, lied to me about that, had a kid, lied to me about it, lied to his parents about still being with his wife, never told anyone about the condo, kept it as a den to drag his pray into.....He lied about stupid stuff: where he ate lunch, where he went to school, where he had traveled to in his life, just everything and anything. I also believe that an inferiority complex was at the root of his trouble too.

    Somehow, Casey's problems seem more complex to me than just the obvious pathological lying. I think Cindy hit the nail on the button and who would know better than a nurse and her own mother?
    I can definitely sympathize with you. It's a very strange thing to go through. As I said, I saw this man cry about his dead "family", I witnessed the pain he went through and still can't believe that he faked it. He was trembling, crying to the point where he couldn't breathe and even talked about ending his life. He sat with me every day and would just stare into the sky and without a word tears would flow down his cheek. I truly believe that he did believed his lies. This was not a week, a month, a year, this was 8 years of seeing this person everyday (at work) and never having any inclination that he was lying. I went through the pain of hearing him tell me about his wife's death and through the joy of hearing about his new grandson, to the grieving of his whole family, he talked about them everyday and you could see the love he had for them, it was a shock to find out they never existed and I never really knew anything about this person.

  12. #12
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    Did you ever have one single clue in that whole eight years that you knew him that something wasn't adding up? Ever? One clue?

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by maryaok View Post
    Did you ever have one single clue in that whole eight years that you knew him that something wasn't adding up? Ever? One clue?
    No not really. None of us did. We thought that he was a loney man who was so distraught over the loss of his wife (the first year we met him) and we knew he had a drinking problem when not at work. Otherwise, he was the type of person who would go out of his way for his friends. Although we suspected that he exaggerated some little daily things and he seemed a little needy, we never doubted his love of his family. Of course in hind sight we can see inconsistencies of things he did and said, but at the time we were all fooled. The hardest part of it all was realizing that someone was able to pull this off and fool not only me, but all of us (more than 20 of us!) Believe me when I say I'm not normally a trusting person at first because of my life experiences, but we really had no reason to doubt him.

    When I read of Casey's friends and how they didn't know I can completely understand how they feel. It's easy to say, well they should have questioned this or they should have known that, but if you are around someone who actually believes their own lies and is a pro at it and gives you no reason to suspect something is not right, it's not that easy to tell. JMO

  14. #14
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    Interesting thing ...KC seems to be changing her signature, morphing it to a little more like Jose's signature, quite flamboyant amd flourished, signing only certain letters. It can be seen here, on her waiver to appear in court Fri., pg. 2. Jose's sig. is on the same page:

    http://www.wftv.com/news/18577477/detail.html

    Kind of reminds me of the press conference where she started dressing like a law clerk, with pin-striped pants, white collared shirt, and studious glasses.

    Anyway, thought I'd bring it over here, to see what opinions there were from the psych. pt. of view. She seems to be signing CAY, now. A kind of shortened "Casey", but more interesting is that it seems like more of Caylee's name.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brini View Post
    There are. She's a sociopath. They do not bond. Children are often killed by sociopathic mothers.

    Sociopathy is called "characterological." Meaning that it's a character disorder. Delusion is not an issue.

    And. yes, I have experienced people who are delusional. I'm a psychiatric nurse.

    She knew she didn't work at Universal. If she was delusional, she would have taken them to what she thought was her office.
    Thanks for explaining the difference. My sister-in-law is delusional. She has been in a mental hospital for over 10 years. She believes that my children (who are in their twenties), are her birth children. She believes that they are her babies and also believes her sister's adult children are her babies too. Her delusions are very real to her, and nothing we say will ever convince her.

    She's been diagnosed over the many years with everything from bi-polar to paranoid schizophrenia. I can see now why delusional is very different from a sociopath!

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