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Thread: FL - Jennifer Kesse, 24, Orlando, 24 Jan 2006 - #10

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    FL - Jennifer Kesse, 24, Orlando, 24 Jan 2006 - #10

    Please continue here. I moved the last 3 pages of old thread over as requested. Thanks, Christine


    Mystery, again respectfully, what makes you think it has not been released to Jenn's family? Because if your telling me (us) that is not the case, then that is different info than I have, and I will be sure to follow up on it, upon your advice. TIA
    Is this the new way missing persons investigations are carried out?
    Is it the modern way that only LE and the family know the actual description of the POI?
    Those in the 'know' are looking for someone 5'10" tall whilst the rest of the population looks for someone 5'3" to 5'5".

    Weird.
    Last edited by christine2448; 02-06-2009 at 11:51 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by geojeffrey View Post
    I apologize if this has been discussed previously, but does anyone see a similarity between the JK POI and the POI in the Palm Beach mall murders?

    The gunman is described as either white or hispanic, medium complexion about 5'11", 180 pounds, wearing sunglasses and a full-brimmed floppy hat, possibly with a ponytail.

    http://www.myspace.com/brpsd

    http://www.sun-sentinel.com/communit...,3970354.story

    The Palm Beach suspect used a gun--which as others mentioned in the case of JK--could explain why there was no evidence of a struggle. AND his MO is to approach women who are carrying things (bags, packages) near malls or businesses and then drives his victims away from the crime scene.

    Just an idea...
    I have had that very same thought. I even emailed news outlets who covered Jennifer's case at least 6 months ago and asked them the same thing.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Myserty64 View Post
    Is this the new way missing persons investigations are carried out?
    Is it the modern way that only LE and the family know the actual description of the POI?
    Those in the 'know' are looking for someone 5'10" tall whilst the rest of the population looks for someone 5'3" to 5'5".

    Weird.
    You know, you raise an important point. In a way, yes.

    Not your fault, but I dont want to include the Kesse's in this if they are relying on LE to lead this case. There are hundreds, hell, thousands of MP cases involving people that know nothing about this "club" prior to being a member. Most are reliant on LE as the "experts" to decide what gets released/when..

    Respectfully, I think if a case lags, and it seems LE is not open to other avenues, it is almost incumbent upon those that feel a stimulus to do something to affect progress.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by dearmont View Post
    In order to determine the height of the POI, the following would be needed
    Focal length of the security camera lens
    Height of the camera from the ground
    Distance of the camera from the gate
    Height of the gate
    Distance between the gate pillars
    Distance between the individual grills in the gate
    Distance of the POI from the gate
    Height of the boxwoods on either side of the gate
    The approximate height of the POI could be calculated from these using photogrammatic fomulae. But it would only be an approximation - the result could be as much as 2" +/-. The only measurement that is not precise is the distance of the POI from the gate.

    It's interesting that the POI is walking south and still in the parking area of HOTG - were there other cameras on the buildings that could have captured a better shot of the POI - or was only camera 3 working?
    Thanks for the input, Dearmont! IIRC, the other cameras caught him leaving the car and walking around to that point. They were too grainy to do any good as for an ID of any kind. The gate photos were the most clear images from any of the cameras, but his face is still covered.

    I wonder if LE has considered contacting the professionals at Target to see if anything can be done with the other images? I remember during Kelsey Smith's case that the FBI said the experts at Target were better than their own and had the latest equipment. It certainly couldn't hurt to try and bring out a photo's clarity for an ID.
    "WE SEEK FOR THE TRUTH. WE SEEK JUSTICE.
    THE COURTS REQUIRE IT. THE VICTIMS CRY FOR IT
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    What I post are my opinions only.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeriouslySearching View Post
    Thanks for the input, Dearmont! IIRC, the other cameras caught him leaving the car and walking around to that point. They were too grainy to do any good as for an ID of any kind. The gate photos were the most clear images from any of the cameras, but his face is still covered.

    I wonder if LE has considered contacting the professionals at Target to see if anything can be done with the other images? I remember during Kelsey Smith's case that the FBI said the experts at Target were better than their own and had the latest equipment. It certainly couldn't hurt to try and bring out a photo's clarity for an ID.
    This is what I noted about the photos. Looks like there was help from FBI, NASA, and Walmart.

    Feb 14, 2006
    Reported that the FBI is assisting Orlando police. "They're gonna do some proportion work and try to give us a sensible range of the person's height," said Sgt. Rich Ring, OPD. "The source that we used for the enhancement is renowned and they've given us what they can give us as far as the clarity on that particular video," Sgt. Ring said. (Note: Drew advised later that the pictures were from a 30 yr old camera, were sent to NASA for work and also to Walmart's Missing Persons division where they do photo work too.)

    Feb 21, 2006
    Orlando Police announce in a news conference that the "person of interest" is between 5-foot-3 and 5-foot-5. They are not able to ascertain his -- his or her weight or ascertain his or her shoe size. They say they are still not specifying a gender because the information on the photographs is not specific enough.

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    I tend to think it was a worker(s) and most likely an illegal alien. Just reading up on illegal immigrants, fake IDs, and difficulty in tracking down workers. Also, on the Kesse’s guestbook there was a recent post about a guy named Escobar who is in the La Mara Salvatrucha (MS-13) gang (see link below). I’m not saying there is a connection with gangs or Escobar to Jennifer’s case, but it was educational about some of the gangs and brutal crimes committed, so I’m including for information.

    =================
    · Of the 447 units in Jennifer’s complex, only 250 were occupied at the time, and workers were allowed to live in the empty units. LE has said tracing these people is “extremely difficult.”
    · More than half the Mosaic work crew disappeared in the days after Jennifer vanished. (ref Drew Kesse, Daily Commercial)

    Fake IDs Are Common Among Illegal Immigrants
    May 26, 2005
    http://www.theledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050526/NEWS/505260420/1004

    Illegal aliens linked to gang-rape wave
    August 22, 2006
    http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=51424

    Authorities cracking down on gangs, illegal aliens
    Arrests of 59 violent gang members in Southwest Florida part of national sweep
    October 9, 2007
    http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2007/oct/09/authorities_cracking_down_gangs_illegal_aliens/

    Wanted in NC (for 2003 murder of male): Edgar Noel Fernandez Escobar
    DOB: 3/30/1982; SEX: Male; RACE: Hispanic; HEIGHT: Unknown WEIGHT: Unknown
    HAIR: Black EYES: Brown
    AKA: “Solo” MS-13 gang member
    Escobar should be considered armed and dangerous.
    http://www.charmeck.org/NR/rdonlyres/ekuenzdqmlz3isgrswp4cpqjkuzlkxouqkfuxozkvfzwpd53yw ni7qshttcyslbugfpxcb55pg6hj6bdggwadodqhja/EscobarEdgarNFpost.pdf

    Read the posts on this page from woman who said Escobar attacked her in NC in 2003:
    http://www.mugshots.com/Criminal/Killers/Edgar+Noel+Fernandez+Escobar.htm

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    Someone was responsible for hiring those workers whether they were legal or not. There was also someone in charge of those workers.

    The foreman would know something about them maybe where they lived, where they came from, where they had worked before, who they were related to in the group ... my point is that people don't work together and not talk.

    Even if they all disappeared there's still that someone who was responsible for their daily performance.
    Was that person identified and questioned by a Spanish speaking officer?

    My biggest question is why only person (I assume it was the bf) was reported as being given a LDT?

    My second biggest question is why the brother needed to stay in the condo while she was gone that weekend? What was the reason for it?
    It seems odd to me unless she had a pet.

    ~
    ~ Beating the drum of awareness ~

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    I think I'm going to be sick.

    More than 1/2 disappeared. Wow. Many who left probably just feared the investigation due to illegal status etc.

    But, the gang related theory would explain why there was a lot of talk on the streets about her disappearance right after it happened.

    I would really like to know how many - if any - of those that disappeared worked in her apt when she was there. I suspect that is the true supect list.

  12. #9
    Her brother stayed there with friends simply to party. It was a warm place with a pool and bars nearby. They are young and wanted a weekend getaway. I can see why they would go to Jenn's for a party as it was a nice place to hang out. Maybe Jenn thought her brother could keep an eye on her stuff while she was gone. (sigh)
    "WE SEEK FOR THE TRUTH. WE SEEK JUSTICE.
    THE COURTS REQUIRE IT. THE VICTIMS CRY FOR IT
    AND GOD DEMANDS IT!"

    A quote spray painted on the wall by search
    and rescue workers, Team 5, at the OKC Bombing site 4-19-1995.



    What I post are my opinions only.

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    This business of the perps height has me concerned. There is no reason that a very accurate estimate of the perp's height could not be obtained quickly. Once obtained, it would be a key part of the "general description" that should have been released. The difference between 5' 5" and 5' 10" is critical. 5' 10" = average height and it could describe over 50% of the men out there. 5' 5" (along with the slim to average build) is very distinctive.

    LE will withhold info and the estimated height could have been withheld, but generally, known facts of physical description are good ways to generate leads. NO mention of height might be OK but either releasing false info or failing to correct mis-information or false rumors of something as critical as height seems downright misfeasance. It would tend to "clear" the real perp and generate worthless leads.

    Every sub-contractor at the Millenia would know was working for them. They may not have know the "correct name" or forwarding address but they would have a general description and the name the employee had given them and a good questioning of co-workers would have given "real name, country of origh (and probably town as well), who his buddies were, where he had worked before, where he planned to ge next etc).

    I have a friend who is in law enforcement in California and he tells me that criminal investigations involving illegal aliens are not that difficult because co-workers tend to know a lot about each other AND they know the police are different from INS (and do refer witnesses to INS). He says there is the usual "code of silence" over minor infractions, but something serious, like murder, will get people talking.

    This talk of "1/2 of the wokers disappearing" is probably just a rumor. If it can be documented, it would suggest something very ominous.

  15. #11
    Drum~ I don't recall who was given a LDT, but they cleared Rob early on because of the phone call (cell tower pings) and he had an alibi at work hours away.

    Cloud~ There is really no indication of gang involvement or activity in or around the Condos which I can find. There were reports of drug activity at HOTG, but this can be said of most lower rent apartment complexes across the country.

    Kemo~ I agree with you except for the part where the testing was done initially for the height of the person by the gate. Photos showed the FBI techs doing the actual field work and they had metal rods with measures. I didn't see much in the way of other equipment and did not appear this had a lot of time or expertise invested in it, imo.
    "WE SEEK FOR THE TRUTH. WE SEEK JUSTICE.
    THE COURTS REQUIRE IT. THE VICTIMS CRY FOR IT
    AND GOD DEMANDS IT!"

    A quote spray painted on the wall by search
    and rescue workers, Team 5, at the OKC Bombing site 4-19-1995.



    What I post are my opinions only.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lilacwine View Post
    I think I'm going to be sick.

    More than 1/2 disappeared. Wow. Many who left probably just feared the investigation due to illegal status etc.

    But, the gang related theory would explain why there was a lot of talk on the streets about her disappearance right after it happened.

    I would really like to know how many - if any - of those that disappeared worked in her apt when she was there. I suspect that is the true supect list.
    Can you remind me about "a lot of talk on the streets?" Thanks.

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    My thoughts are this: Workers were not likely to stay around and talk if they were here illegally. Not saying they did, but if the developer or a contractor knowingly hired illegal aliens they could be criminally prosecuted or face fines – so how forthcoming would they all be in this situation, especially with all of the media glare at the time?

    SS, As mentioned, not saying gang related just trying to be aware of things going on and keeping in the back of my mind the slight possibility of a worker(s) being affiliated with a gang. In the article I posted from 2007, as part of the ongoing “Operation Community Sheld,” there were arrests of 1,313 gang members (gangs such as MS-13, Surenos-13, the Latin Kings, the Bloods, the Crips and Vatos Locos), associates and illegal aliens in 19 states – 59 were in SW Florida, 160 in Miami, and 17 in Orlando area. In the other article, it mentions a gang rape in 2005 in FL of an 18 year old woman by 14 illegal field laborers.

    Kemo, maybe agencies are working better today than 3 years ago. In the article I posted from 2006, the study from 1999-2006 found about 240,000 illegal-immigrant sex offenders residing in the U.S., and 93 sex offenders & 12 serial sexual offenders come across U.S. borders illegally every day (most found in CA, TX, AZ, NJ, NY, and FL). In 2005, “officials of the House Judiciary Committee said that U.S. immigration officers and police are not always on the same page. Police do not always inform immigration authorities about arrests of undocumented aliens, and immigration officers are often too late to identify the aliens before they are released on bail.”

    Contractors Hire Illegal Workers – June, 2006
    Special agents from U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE), part of the Department of Homeland Security (DHS), arrested 66 illegal workers who were building a federal court facility in Orlando, FL. The ICE investigation revealed that the workers submitted fraudulent Social Security numbers and other counterfeit documents to obtain employment by various subcontractors.

    An employer who knowingly hires unauthorized workers may be criminally prosecuted or face administrative fines of up to $11,000 per person. ICE did not levy fines or bring charges against Logan Airport or the Navy, but rather, the contractors.
    http://govpro.com/issue_20060601/gov_imp_27942/

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    Some analysis - kinda quick & dirty

    Unfortunately, I don’t have any data on the measurements of the landmarks at HOTG so I’ve done a little non-really scientific analysis on the estimated height of the POI based on the estimated stride of the POI and it would appear that this person is really short – very doubtful that they are more than 5’3” tall. I base this on some known and accepted averages on human stride.

    A person walking at a normal speed and cadence will cover 120 steps/min. If the camera at HOTG took images once every 3 seconds, which would suggest the POI took about 6 steps between images.

    A person’s average stride is about 54”, which translates to about 3 steps. There is a formula that states:

    Person’s height x 0.415 = stride therefore stride/3 = length of step.

    So, if the POI was 5’10” (70”) the stride would be 70x 0.415 = 29”. Step size would be 29/3 = 9.5” – conclusion – in six steps this person would have been well past the gatepost and their face could have been seen.

    If the person was just 5’ (60”) the stride would be 60 x 0.415 = 24.9”. Step = 24.9/3 = 8.3” – conclusion – in six steps this person would not have passed the gatepost at that point. My feeling is that this person is a little taller than 5’ – but not by much!

    Calculations done based on information from these sources:
    http://education.ti.com/educationportal/activityexchange/activity_detail.do?cid=us&activityid=6369

    http://www.univie.ac.at/cga/courses/be522/tsp.html

    http://walking.about.com/cs/pedometers/a/pedometerset.htm
    Attached Images Attached Images
    I choose to walk to path less travelled, and that has made all the difference

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    In the earlier threads... I distinctly remember reading that there was a lot of "talk on the streets" about the case and that they got tips about it...

    one was credible enough that they went to a house... but it was a mistaken id.

    If I can find the link.. I'll edit this with it.

    I couldn't find it but did find the link for the raid on the rooming house.. so I'm pretty sure I did read about the "talk on the streets"
    http://www.clickorlando.com/news/6991655/detail.html

    Interesting to note that during my re-read I found that one reporter said the scent went to the woods...
    and another where Ring said
    ". . . and we believe she was in or near that vehicle during the time of her abduction," said Sgt. Rich Ring, Orlando Police Department. . ."

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    Cloudajo
    I am aware the crime problem related to illegal imigrants but, at least in California, local police agencies let it be know among the illegal immigrant community, that they do not enforce immigration law and they will not refer otherwise law abiding folks over to INS. This is done, of course so that people will cooperate with them on normal law enforcement issues. It is quite "normal" for illegal immigrants to report crimes, give witness statements and testify at trials. (most crimes commited by illegal immigrants are against other illegal immigrants). Perhaps someone knows what the police policy was in Orlando. This could have effected the outcome of the investigation.

    Dearmont, good work. Not solid proof but it does confirme the FBI's work. My point is that the "height" issue is critical to the investigation and it has to be done right and the information has to be handeled correctly or the investigation will be compromised.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lilacwine View Post
    I couldn't find it but did find the link for the raid on the rooming house.. so I'm pretty sure I did read about the "talk on the streets"
    http://www.clickorlando.com/news/6991655/detail.html

    Interesting to note that during my re-read I found that one reporter said the scent went to the woods...
    and another where Ring said
    ". . . and we believe she was in or near that vehicle during the time of her abduction," said Sgt. Rich Ring, Orlando Police Department. . ."
    This lead needs to be re-checked - it would seem it was credible enough for the LE to check it out - the lady who gave the information was probably African-American - and she would definately know if a White woman was being held against her will in that area. Think the LE needs to take a look behind that apartment - more on 41st street. JMHO
    I choose to walk to path less travelled, and that has made all the difference

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    Quote Originally Posted by dearmont View Post
    This lead needs to be re-checked - it would seem it was credible enough for the LE to check it out - the lady who gave the information was probably African-American - and she would definately know if a White woman was being held against her will in that area. Think the LE needs to take a look behind that apartment - more on 41st street. JMHO

    They found the woman.. and it wasn't Jen.. it was a prostitute... I saw that on a video at some point...

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    Quote Originally Posted by dearmont View Post
    This lead needs to be re-checked - it would seem it was credible enough for the LE to check it out - the lady who gave the information was probably African-American - and she would definately know if a White woman was being held against her will in that area. Think the LE needs to take a look behind that apartment - more on 41st street. JMHO

    They found the woman.. and it wasn't Jen.. it was a prostitute... I saw that on a video at some point...

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    I wonder what became of the person that abducted this prostitute? Anyone know if he was investigated? If he had abducted someone - what's to say he had not done it before?
    I choose to walk to path less travelled, and that has made all the difference

  26. #21
    I noticed in your presentation on height/stride you used, you didn't take into account the perp may have changed stride due to curbing or other obstructions. I also notice what appears is that you went from the ball of the foot to heel. Is that normal to indicate stride or were you just measuring distance at that point? Did you use the other photos at the gate when doing this calculation?

    No offense, but I am still going with the taller version of the person. I will have to find the calculations done by the WSers who actually went out to the site to do their own testing. The testing/report done that Drivenon mentioned sound quite accurate and professionally done, too.
    "WE SEEK FOR THE TRUTH. WE SEEK JUSTICE.
    THE COURTS REQUIRE IT. THE VICTIMS CRY FOR IT
    AND GOD DEMANDS IT!"

    A quote spray painted on the wall by search
    and rescue workers, Team 5, at the OKC Bombing site 4-19-1995.



    What I post are my opinions only.

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    When I watched the lady on before nancy grace a week and a bit ago i think thats where i seen it but they were talking about how an inmate had said he has details about the case and the police say they allready knew this inmate and know what he is saying and its been looked at or they know he is just talkin crap i cant remember the precise thing the cops said but what i made more about from the breif update was about how thwy were letting the condo workers stay in the empty ones because alot of them were not citizens and they could get away with cheaper labour right maybe taking off money for them staying in the empty condo;s too and i know her bf said jenn was weirded out by that in fact the unit beside her and behind her were being used by the workers .My Oppinion it that thats who is invilved one or some of them after seeing her for a while and knowing just how pretty she was they were there for i dont know how long but if u seen her leave for work at 9 or whatever time it was 5 times a week for a months straight it wouldnt be to hard to figure out she has a job and leaves at that time every day so they could plan something nit what i really wanna say is why arent the police all over the owners ass for letting these guys work there im sure they could scare him with some petty jail time for hiring illegal workers which they would know they saif they interviewed alot of them. Maybe the owner wouldnt know anything but rattling him up couldnt hurt..and he would know the main contractors thar do have are american and they hire those guys cause they know they will work cheap and then go lean on the head of the company he would know his workers..like i said these are just some thoughts i had wouldnt hurt to try to shake some awnsers loose ..
    Everything I Write Is JMHO ..

  28. #23
    The only way I could see an illegal worker involved in this is on returning the car to HOTG. I don't see them involved in the initial crime.
    "WE SEEK FOR THE TRUTH. WE SEEK JUSTICE.
    THE COURTS REQUIRE IT. THE VICTIMS CRY FOR IT
    AND GOD DEMANDS IT!"

    A quote spray painted on the wall by search
    and rescue workers, Team 5, at the OKC Bombing site 4-19-1995.



    What I post are my opinions only.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeriouslySearching View Post
    I noticed in your presentation on height/stride you used, you didn't take into account the perp may have changed stride due to curbing or other obstructions. I also notice what appears is that you went from the ball of the foot to heel. Is that normal to indicate stride or were you just measuring distance at that point? Did you use the other photos at the gate when doing this calculation?

    No offense, but I am still going with the taller version of the person. I will have to find the calculations done by the WSers who actually went out to the site to do their own testing. The testing/report done that Drivenon mentioned sound quite accurate and professionally done, too.
    No offense taken - actually, there does not appear to be any obstacles in the path of the POI and yes, I did use both photos of the POI. Also, it would appear that the POI is about 8 feet from the gate which would also support the estimate that the POI is rather short. As for professionally done - or not - I am a former Imagery Intelligence Analyst - FWITW.
    I choose to walk to path less travelled, and that has made all the difference

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myserty64 View Post
    For me the biggest red flag is 'workers were allowed to live in the empty condos.' So when someone suggests this crime could have been committed by someone living at Mosaic there is a fair chance they are right.

    On the recent 48 Hours show a detective stated 'anywhere from six to two dozen people were in Jennifer's condo over the course of the first 24 hours.'
    The show host: 'and that contaminates a crime scene.'
    Detective: 'no question.'

    In a perfect world that condo would have been sealed off as soon as police arrived there. It wasn't and it was at this point the wheels on this investigation started to wobble.

    The detective working on this case today has no doubt put his heart and soul into the investigation. But what on earth do you do when you have so little to work on.
    That the suspect had two days start before the investigation got into top gear is an absolute tragedy for Jennifer's family and friends.
    I just watched the 48 hours show on Jennifer's website. I agree about the condo not being sealed, that is unfortunate. I also wish that the condos in Jennifer's complex, especially the ones where the workers were living, would have been inspected. The video mentioned that all the condos could not be searched because some were privately owned. I wonder if any of them were searched, and why a search warrant was not obtained to see if there was anything suspicious in any of the nearby condos?

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