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  1. #1
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    Question Were there floor jacks in the Ramsey basement?

    For those of you who don't know, floor jacks are sometimes used in basements to keep the floors above from sagging. I was just thinking about this as a possible source of the skull fracture, either from being slammed against it on purpose, or accidentally. When I was a kid we had some of these in our basement...they were just a little bigger in diameter than a baseball bat. Has anyone mentioned this before as a possible cause of the fracture?

    The first photo is a bit deceiving, as the jacks usually extend from floor to ceiling. The second photo shows several of them in a basement.



  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warsaw View Post
    For those of you who don't know, floor jacks are sometimes used in basements to keep the floors above from sagging. I was just thinking about this as a possible source of the skull fracture, either from being slammed against it on purpose, or accidentally. When I was a kid we had some of these in our basement...they were just a little bigger in diameter than a baseball bat. Has anyone mentioned this before as a possible cause of the fracture?

    The first photo is a bit deceiving, as the jacks usually extend from floor to ceiling. The second photo shows several of them in a basement.


    I have them in my basement. Yet, IMHO, even if she was slammed into one of those, the physics of the force going into the skull are such that it would still not be enough to punch a hole like that. The jack is stationary. The force going into an object that is moving (such as a bat, golf club or heavy flashlight) and being swung is much greater, though the object it self may be smaller and lighter than that floor jack. I feel it needed to be either someone taller than JBR bringing something down on her skull, or slammed into something with a protrusion (like a faucet) that because of the shape of it could have punched a hole in a skull when slammed into. The hole could have resulted from her being slammed with considerable force into a faucet. A fall wouldn't do it either. She was too small and too light to hit the floor hard enough to cause that hole. Falling from a height would have produced a different kind of fracture. I feel the coroner's assessment is correct- blunt force trauma.
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
    I have them in my basement. Yet, IMHO, even if she was slammed into one of those, the physics of the force going into the skull are such that it would still not be enough to punch a hole like that. The jack is stationary. The force going into an object that is moving (such as a bat, golf club or heavy flashlight) and being swung is much greater, though the object it self may be smaller and lighter than that floor jack. I feel it needed to be either someone taller than JBR bringing something down on her skull, or slammed into something with a protrusion (like a faucet) that because of the shape of it could have punched a hole in a skull when slammed into. The hole could have resulted from her being slammed with considerable force into a faucet. A fall wouldn't do it either. She was too small and too light to hit the floor hard enough to cause that hole. Falling from a height would have produced a different kind of fracture. I feel the coroner's assessment is correct- blunt force trauma.
    I read a post awhile back from a poster that believes that JB could have possibly been placed in the bathtub, after wetting the bed...for a bath. She was tired, and half asleep and probably put up a huge fuss, about getting in the tub at almost midnight. And that Patsy was being forceful with her, and she fell onto the faucet.
    "This time we get it right."

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ames View Post
    I read a post awhile back from a poster that believes that JB could have possibly been placed in the bathtub, after wetting the bed...for a bath. She was tired, and half asleep and probably put up a huge fuss, about getting in the tub at almost midnight. And that Patsy was being forceful with her, and she fell onto the faucet.

    Ames, do you think there is any significance in that weird hair arrangement? I always wondered whether all the pony tails weren't about Patsy colouring JB's hair and getting cross when the latter objected to a dye job on Christmas night - after all, there was a pageant coming up and time might have been short in the upcoming Michigan vacation....


    (As always, I have to apologise if these odd thoughts have been disproved over the years).

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sophie View Post
    Ames, do you think there is any significance in that weird hair arrangement? I always wondered whether all the pony tails weren't about Patsy colouring JB's hair and getting cross when the latter objected to a dye job on Christmas night - after all, there was a pageant coming up and time might have been short in the upcoming Michigan vacation....


    (As always, I have to apologise if these odd thoughts have been disproved over the years).
    Many people have wondered that.
    I'm as mad as HELL and I'm NOT gonna take it anymore!.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sophie View Post
    Ames, do you think there is any significance in that weird hair arrangement? I always wondered whether all the pony tails weren't about Patsy colouring JB's hair and getting cross when the latter objected to a dye job on Christmas night - after all, there was a pageant coming up and time might have been short in the upcoming Michigan vacation....


    (As always, I have to apologise if these odd thoughts have been disproved over the years).
    I have wondered that as well. I read somewhere...and I have no idea if it is true or not...that investigators smelled peroxide in one of the bathrooms. So, if that is true...then, the hair dyeing scenario could have very well happened. I have always leaned toward the bed wetting theory...but, a late hair dyeing job, on Christmas night...as the trigger...would be my second theory. I would love to know if the smell of peroxide in the bathroom is true...or not.
    "This time we get it right."

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ames View Post
    I have wondered that as well. I read somewhere...and I have no idea if it is true or not...that investigators smelled peroxide in one of the bathrooms. So, if that is true...then, the hair dyeing scenario could have very well happened. I have always leaned toward the bed wetting theory...but, a late hair dyeing job, on Christmas night...as the trigger...would be my second theory. I would love to know if the smell of peroxide in the bathroom is true...or not.

    It is interesting that Patsy was yapping on in her interview with ST about colouring her hair on Christmas Day almost as though she anticipated the question about the peroxide. I'm generally not very sexist but a female investigator would have been on that comment like a fly around a cow's bum...

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sophie View Post
    Ames, do you think there is any significance in that weird hair arrangement? I always wondered whether all the pony tails weren't about Patsy colouring JB's hair and getting cross when the latter objected to a dye job on Christmas night - after all, there was a pageant coming up and time might have been short in the upcoming Michigan vacation....


    (As always, I have to apologise if these odd thoughts have been disproved over the years).
    Hi Sophie.

    Ya. There's just so many little odd descrepancies or I guess just so many tidbits about the crime scene mentioned, but hard to source,

    The hair arrangement and the smell of peroxide?

    If her hair was bleached that smell lingers in your hair long after.

  9. #9
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    JBR had her hair done at a beauty salon. Patsy colored her hair Christmas day--brunette.

    There were no bathroom incidences except in Steve Thomas's imagination.

    I don't think there were jacks in the basement. The basement was only under the original part of the house--the expanded area had a crawl space.

    The skin was not broken over the area JBR was hit....it's possible the perp had his own weapon, and knew what kind would not break the skin---or, the bat or flashlight. There was a fireplace poker in the wine cellar room that was not taken in.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maikai View Post
    JBR had her hair done at a beauty salon.

    I didn't know that. I sort of thought that beauty salons were reluctant to use the chemicals on children. I mean, a grown woman can make an informed decision about whether she thinks the risk from parabens etc is acceptable. A child can't. Not that that is relevant: if she got her hair done at a salon then obviously, unless Patsy did the roots occasionally, the hair dye scenario is a non-starter.

    Separately, though, do you have a view on that odd hair arrangement?

    Patsy colored her hair Christmas day--brunette.

    There were no bathroom incidences except in Steve Thomas's imagination.

    Not really an evidential point, but LHP said that there were and nearly everyone who knew JBR commented on her bedwetting and/or soiling her undies so - without necessarily subscribing to the bedwetting theory - I'd be amazed if there were no incidents ever. The mildest mother in Christendom has her limits and will express irritation.

    I don't think there were jacks in the basement. The basement was only under the original part of the house--the expanded area had a crawl space.

    The skin was not broken over the area JBR was hit....it's possible the perp had his own weapon, and knew what kind would not break the skin

    Possible although I'm not sure that someone who is going to molest and strangle a child would be that bothered about breaking her skin unless they were bothered about getting blood on their clothes (which wouldn't fit that well with someone who was outrageous and incautious enough to break into a house, abduct a child, feed her pineapple, murder her and write a ransom note while three people slept upstairs).

    ---or, the bat or flashlight. There was a fireplace poker in the wine cellar room that was not taken in.
    Which has to be a huge mistake an opportunity missed by LE.


    Sorry Maikai: I have somehow managed to incorporate my comments into yours! Buffoon that I am.
    Last edited by Sophie; 03-19-2009 at 10:17 AM. Reason: Idiotic grammar


  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sophie View Post
    It is interesting that Patsy was yapping on in her interview with ST about colouring her hair on Christmas Day almost as though she anticipated the question about the peroxide. I'm generally not very sexist but a female investigator would have been on that comment like a fly around a cow's bum...
    I agree. And I also believe that with all of that money that the Ramsey's had...that Patsy would not have done her own hair, anyway. As far as JB goes..I read where she had taken her to her hairdresser and asked HER to bleach JB's hair...and the hairdresser refused, because JB was too young. Since I did go to cosmetology school, IMO...even if Patsy had of "shopped around", she would not have been able to find a hair dresser that would have bleached a young child's hair. I believe that is the reason that she started doing it herself. But, I can't see Patsy dyeing her OWN hair.
    "This time we get it right."

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tadpole12 View Post
    Hi Sophie.

    Ya. There's just so many little odd descrepancies or I guess just so many tidbits about the crime scene mentioned, but hard to source,

    The hair arrangement and the smell of peroxide?

    If her hair was bleached that smell lingers in your hair long after.
    Not if the "accident" happened BEFORE she put any on there.
    "This time we get it right."

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maikai View Post
    JBR had her hair done at a beauty salon. Patsy colored her hair Christmas day--brunette.

    There were no bathroom incidences except in Steve Thomas's imagination.

    I don't think there were jacks in the basement. The basement was only under the original part of the house--the expanded area had a crawl space.

    The skin was not broken over the area JBR was hit....it's possible the perp had his own weapon, and knew what kind would not break the skin---or, the bat or flashlight. There was a fireplace poker in the wine cellar room that was not taken in.
    I need a link to the fact that JB had her hair done at a beauty salon. I read that Patsy's hair dresser would not bleach a young child's hair...she started getting it done around four years of age. I believe that you are wrong about that. In fact, every hair dresser that I know won't bleach a child's hair, until they are around 12 or 13, because of the harsh chemicals. And even though Patsy said that she dyed her own hair...doesn't make it true.
    "This time we get it right."

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ames View Post
    Not if the "accident" happened BEFORE she put any on there.
    Hi Ames.

    How true.

    I still wonder, without those phone records, how do we know that the head injury occured inside the home?

    I wondered if someone had slammed the car door against JBR's head, by accident. Just trying to think of an object that would result in the displacement of bone and such a long linear fracture.

    The door jam, the strike plate on the the door stop ......

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tadpole12 View Post
    Hi Ames.

    How true.

    I still wonder, without those phone records, how do we know that the head injury occured inside the home?

    I wondered if someone had slammed the car door against JBR's head, by accident. Just trying to think of an object that would result in the displacement of bone and such a long linear fracture.

    The door jam, the strike plate on the the door stop ......
    Hi Tad...
    You are always so friendly...

    A faucet, or the side of the toilet, tub or sink....(the rounded part) would have caused it too, if slung hard enough into it.

    Well, really we do not have any proof that the head injury occured inside the home. But, garland was found in her hair...(and that had to have been when whoever took her downstairs, brushed her hair against the handrails, that were decorated for Christmas). If it had of happened outside...there wouldn't have been any reason for them to bring her inside..and then up the stairs...only to bring her back down again. IMO..the head injury happened inside the home.
    "This time we get it right."

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