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  1. #16
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    Well if we discount the sightings on Drumm avenue, I suppose the possibility still exists that someone could have hit the girls in the parking lot, or even hit one of the girls, not even hard, but as a way to get them in the car.
    Say the girls are walking in parking lot, a car comes and bumps one or both of them enough to cause discomfort. The driver, very apologetic, offers to drive them home so they don't have to walk while injured and the driver will explain and give information to their parents. Only the driver doesn't take them home.
    This could make the abduction a random chance abduction, or someone could have been in the parking lot seen the girls go in the mall alone and waited for them to come out.
    It would definitely be an easy way to get the girls in the car without a fight.

    I really do wonder if the girls made it out of the mall, and if so, how far they made it. I am thinking also that maybe taking two girls, who are sisters, isn't as hard as it seems to have been. If the perp somehow convincingly or forcefully got one of the sisters within his control and threatened to do harm to her, then the other would probably do anything he said to keep her sister from harm.
    Children don't stop dancing

  2. #17
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    hit & run........

    Quote Originally Posted by SharetheLight View Post
    Well if we discount the sightings on Drumm avenue, I suppose the possibility still exists that someone could have hit the girls in the parking lot, or even hit one of the girls, not even hard, but as a way to get them in the car.
    Say the girls are walking in parking lot, a car comes and bumps one or both of them enough to cause discomfort. The driver, very apologetic, offers to drive them home so they don't have to walk while injured and the driver will explain and give information to their parents. Only the driver doesn't take them home.
    This could make the abduction a random chance abduction, or someone could have been in the parking lot seen the girls go in the mall alone and waited for them to come out.
    It would definitely be an easy way to get the girls in the car without a fight.

    I really do wonder if the girls made it out of the mall, and if so, how far they made it. I am thinking also that maybe taking two girls, who are sisters, isn't as hard as it seems to have been. If the perp somehow convincingly or forcefully got one of the sisters within his control and threatened to do harm to her, then the other would probably do anything he said to keep her sister from harm.
    Very interesting thoughts. I think I've read about an abduction where the perp hit a kid on a bike just to knock him off and take him. I'll have to try and remember who and when that was. What you're saying makes sense, getting one to comply or threatening one,could make the other go along.Reminds me of the movie "The Geen Mile" the guy is explaining how a man killed 2 sisters.The man said,"He killed them with their love for each other." The perp told one sister,"If you scream I'll kill her" and told the other sister the same thing. Both girls kept quiet out of fear that they would cause harm to each other.

  3. #18
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    I believe the TRM timed this thing just right when the girls left the mall. He probably approached them in his vehicle as they walked down Drumm Ave. & continued whatever was said to them earlier on his recorder (after all these perps' know what to say, & and ask to obtain info). I do not beleive he was just talking to them at the mall, he was trolling. Somehow he coaxed them into his vehicle quickly, & after that it was 'Katy bar the door'. Credit due, these jerks are good at what they do!

  4. #19
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    abduction scenarios...

    Good comments and thoughts.

    I have been to Wheaton Plaza and although the inside has changed considerably since 1975, the outside area is much the same as it was; same vehicle entrances to parking lots, same walking path, etc.

    What struck me was the excellent vantage point exists near the end of Faulkner and what was the back entrance to Wards (now Target). Unlike the massive parking lots which one pictures an most malls, this is a very small area adjacent to the much larger parking area. It is somewhat sheltered and remote. Most people would park in the larger lot, unless they specifically wanted to go into Wards.

    Faulkner ends in a "turn-around" just short of the mall perimeter road, and the only way to get to it is at a cross walk from the Wards rear parking lot to a foot path which goes about 20 feet and joins up at the end of Faulkner.

    Someone parked in that lot could watch people coming and going, and could determine which children were accompanied by older friends or adults - and which were alone. The cross walk literally passes right next to one of the parking spaces. It would be possible for someone with a vehicle (especially a van) to park next to where the cross walk ended, facing out so that the side cargo door was alongside the usual path of some one crossing the street.

    Any kind of ruse could have been used when the girls came past on their way home. This small parking lot would have been the optimum point for his ambush, as he would have been in position, attracting no attention, and could keep careful watch, not only for the girls, but for the presence of any potential witnesses.

    If, for any reason, the abductor decided to abort his attempt in the parking lot, (maybe the presence of a witness, a passing vehicle, etc) he could simply let them pass by and then drive out to University Ave, only a hundred yards away, turn left and turn left on Drumm or the next road and be in the area where the girls were reportedly seen walking home. The whole evolution would have taken only minutes.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    Good comments and thoughts.

    I have been to Wheaton Plaza and although the inside has changed considerably since 1975, the outside area is much the same as it was; same vehicle entrances to parking lots, same walking path, etc.

    What struck me was the excellent vantage point exists near the end of Faulkner and what was the back entrance to Wards (now Target). Unlike the massive parking lots which one pictures an most malls, this is a very small area adjacent to the much larger parking area. It is somewhat sheltered and remote. Most people would park in the larger lot, unless they specifically wanted to go into Wards.

    Faulkner ends in a "turn-around" just short of the mall perimeter road, and the only way to get to it is at a cross walk from the Wards rear parking lot to a foot path which goes about 20 feet and joins up at the end of Faulkner.

    Someone parked in that lot could watch people coming and going, and could determine which children were accompanied by older friends or adults - and which were alone. The cross walk literally passes right next to one of the parking spaces. It would be possible for someone with a vehicle (especially a van) to park next to where the cross walk ended, facing out so that the side cargo door was alongside the usual path of some one crossing the street.

    Any kind of ruse could have been used when the girls came past on their way home. This small parking lot would have been the optimum point for his ambush, as he would have been in position, attracting no attention, and could keep careful watch, not only for the girls, but for the presence of any potential witnesses.

    If, for any reason, the abductor decided to abort his attempt in the parking lot, (maybe the presence of a witness, a passing vehicle, etc) he could simply let them pass by and then drive out to University Ave, only a hundred yards away, turn left and turn left on Drumm or the next road and be in the area where the girls were reportedly seen walking home. The whole evolution would have taken only minutes.
    But if it didn't happen in the parking lot, then the person would have to know his way around. It's not like the car could just follow closely behind the girls. He would have to know which roads linked to which roads, and he would have to know where the girls were headed. If one simply observed them coming through a cross walk there would be no clear indication which direction they came from. For a car to leave the parking lot and end up on the streets they were walking, I think the car would have to drive out onto University Blvd. and then in a circle to the residential streets. And those streets, at least University Blvd., is heavily travelled at all times of the day.

    Admittedly the actual plaza has changed drastically. The parking lots for the most part remain as they were. I would think there would be a big change in trees, shrubbery, and paths since 1975. When did you see this area? In 1975, or sometime later? I understand your thoughts about the parking area being the same, but maybe trees have been cleared, or landscapes redone so the view in 1975 may not have been so clear.
    Just some thoughts.
    Children don't stop dancing

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeb View Post
    I believe the TRM timed this thing just right when the girls left the mall. He probably approached them in his vehicle as they walked down Drumm Ave. & continued whatever was said to them earlier on his recorder (after all these perps' know what to say, & and ask to obtain info). I do not beleive he was just talking to them at the mall, he was trolling. Somehow he coaxed them into his vehicle quickly, & after that it was 'Katy bar the door'. Credit due, these jerks are good at what they do!
    IF the perp is TRM and he took them along Drumm Ave. then he would had to have had more personal info about them, like where they lived. He would also had to have known how they got home (which route they travelled). He would also have to know where their address is in relation to the mall. And how to get there quickly to intercept.
    He could not have just followed them in his car as they walked home because their route contained areas only accessible on foot.
    This is a lot of info for a perp to have when the only thing supposedly overheard was do you play sports. And after which the girls left in the opposite direction.(as reported by jimmy). This is all IF you believe Jimmy's story.
    Lots of IFs here.
    I refuse to give credit to anyone who intentionally harms a child.
    I think it's more likely the girls were snatched on their way home by someone who either planned it, or happened upon them.
    Children don't stop dancing

  7. #22
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    To Sharethelight

    You're correct in saying a child snatcher, & potential killer does'nt deserve any CREDIT. He caused much grief, pain, suffering etc. I'd, like to have 2 mins. alone with him.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by SharetheLight View Post
    IF the perp is TRM and he took them along Drumm Ave. then he would had to have had more personal info about them, like where they lived. He would also had to have known how they got home (which route they travelled). He would also have to know where their address is in relation to the mall. And how to get there quickly to intercept.
    He could not have just followed them in his car as they walked home because their route contained areas only accessible on foot.
    This is a lot of info for a perp to have when the only thing supposedly overheard was do you play sports. And after which the girls left in the opposite direction.(as reported by jimmy). This is all IF you believe Jimmy's story.
    Lots of IFs here.
    I refuse to give credit to anyone who intentionally harms a child.
    I think it's more likely the girls were snatched on their way home by someone who either planned it, or happened upon them.
    I agree,not very likely at all.A man that didn't even know they'd be there that day,where they lived and what their path home would be, couldn't have had all the info needed to pull that off.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by wfgodot View Post
    I've grown fonder of my Feast of St. Dismas/Easter week "find" from another of StL's excellent threads on this fascinating case. (The kidnapping occurred on the former, on the Tuesday of the latter.) If indeed there is a religious aspect to this case, I think they would have been taken to some place with--at leat in the mind of the perpetrator--a ritualistic significance.
    Okay, trying to get back on track. Someone took them from somewhere, we've gone round and round with those two. But what happened next.
    If we go with wfgodot's theory or really any theory that ties into religion then what wfgodot suggests makes sense. Taking them somewhere with a ritualistic significance. So where would that be that is no further than 15 miles from Wheaton? I need to do a little research and come back with my ideas.
    As I typed this I realized that wherever the perp took these girls had to have a ritualistic significance to him. What type of ritual, if something other than religious, I'm not sure. This perp had done this before, and had planned this abduction so what type of ritual significance did this abduction hold for him?
    Children don't stop dancing

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by SharetheLight View Post
    Okay, trying to get back on track. Someone took them from somewhere, we've gone round and round with those two. But what happened next.
    If we go with wfgodot's theory or really any theory that ties into religion then what wfgodot suggests makes sense. Taking them somewhere with a ritualistic significance. So where would that be that is no further than 15 miles from Wheaton? I need to do a little research and come back with my ideas.
    As I typed this I realized that wherever the perp took these girls had to have a ritualistic significance to him. What type of ritual, if something other than religious, I'm not sure. This perp had done this before, and had planned this abduction so what type of ritual significance did this abduction hold for him?
    I'm wondering....if it was some type of ritualistic abdution,do we think the perp knew them? I feel like if this was the case,they knew the guy,due to the fact that nobody saw or heard a struggle.However,if it was an unknown person and he was somehow able to take them with out anyone seeing it,were they picked at random or stalked? As far as where he could have taken them,maybe an abandoned church?


  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Motherof5 View Post
    I'm wondering....if it was some type of ritualistic abdution,do we think the perp knew them? I feel like if this was the case,they knew the guy,due to the fact that nobody saw or heard a struggle.However,if it was an unknown person and he was somehow able to take them with out anyone seeing it,were they picked at random or stalked? As far as where he could have taken them,maybe an abandoned church?
    Well I tend to think if a stranger took them, then is was random. Like the stranger planned to take someone and these poor girls just happened to be who came along. Which is strange on a residential street. On a residential street there are many kids walking around unsupervised (at least in 1975). So seeing two girls alone wouldn't be as strange as seeing two girls at the mall alone. Easier to take the girls from the mall.

    If it was someone they knew, then it would seem again that they just happened upon them. Because this was not a routine trip for the girls it was spontaneous.

    Okay if it was someone they knew did they get taken because the were Sheila and Katherine Lyons? (in other words stalked)
    Or were they taken because they happened to be acquainted with a child abductor (unbeknownst to them) and he came across them that day and couldn't help himself. (unplanned)
    Or they were acquainted with a child abductor who planned to abduct that day and came across the two girls which seemed an easy catch?? (planned with no specific victim in mind)

    Do you see the difference here, am I making any sense (it's been a long day already)

    Like in the Sandra Cantu case, she lived amongst many RSOs and shady people who were very friendly with children. I'd bet that she was familiar with whoever took her, and probably had been to their home. I don't think they took her because they had to have Sandra, I think they took her because she was an easy catch that day.

    Ugh it just makes my heart sick!!! I hope they find this person or persons very soon!!!

    Sorry that is OT.
    Children don't stop dancing

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Motherof5 View Post
    I'm wondering....if it was some type of ritualistic abdution,do we think the perp knew them? I feel like if this was the case,they knew the guy,due to the fact that nobody saw or heard a struggle.However,if it was an unknown person and he was somehow able to take them with out anyone seeing it,were they picked at random or stalked? As far as where he could have taken them,maybe an abandoned church?
    Bolded by me

    This is a good thought. I'll research to see if there were any abandon churches around in 1975.

    There is also the big temple, the headquarters for Seventh Day Adventists, in Kensington. There is a lot of land around the temple.

    I also think of outdoor type places. Water may be important. Water is very significant in Christianity. The unfortunate thing is there are so many parks and bodies of water just a short drive from wheaton.
    The Potomac River and The Chesapeake Bay are a 20 minute drive or less. Not to mention all the wooded areas, mountains, and creeks around the area.
    There is the:
    C&O canal
    Great Falls
    Rock Creek Park/Beach Drive area
    Sligo Creek Park
    Appalachian trails
    Catoctin Mtn.
    Sugarloaf Mtn.
    And quite a few state parks
    all within' a 30 minute drive . . .
    Children don't stop dancing

  13. #28
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    The girls' route discussed...

    Quote Originally Posted by SharetheLight View Post
    But if it didn't happen in the parking lot, then the person would have to know his way around. It's not like the car could just follow closely behind the girls. He would have to know which roads linked to which roads, and he would have to know where the girls were headed. If one simply observed them coming through a cross walk there would be no clear indication which direction they came from. For a car to leave the parking lot and end up on the streets they were walking, I think the car would have to drive out onto University Blvd. and then in a circle to the residential streets. And those streets, at least University Blvd., is heavily travelled at all times of the day.

    Admittedly the actual plaza has changed drastically. The parking lots for the most part remain as they were. I would think there would be a big change in trees, shrubbery, and paths since 1975. When did you see this area? In 1975, or sometime later? I understand your thoughts about the parking area being the same, but maybe trees have been cleared, or landscapes redone so the view in 1975 may not have been so clear.
    Just some thoughts.
    I have a 1975 Map and also a much more detailed 1981 Map of the area, which clearly depicts all of the neighborhood streets, including all those I mentioned in my earlier post about the route. Those street locations have not changed at all. Only the wooded section through which the path went (between McComas and Jennings) is different. There are now some houses built in there, some fences have been put up, etc.

    I walked the route only a few weeks ago; from the old Wards parking lot, down the short foot path (now black topped) west on Faulkner, west on Drumm, across McComas (still on Drumm) to Plyers Mill Road, Left on Plyers Mill for one block, and across Jennings. While this route left out the foot path through the woods, it was aproximately the same distance overall. Total time at a brisk walk was 15 minutes each way.

    Your points about an abductor needing to know the residential roads is somewhat true. It would certainly be easier for him if he had a detailed map, or if he had previously traveled the roads to know which ones connected with University Blvd and/or Georgia Ave. - Those being the best/ fastest escape routes from the area. But he would not necessarily need that information.

    The big problem would be that IF he were to sit and wait in the residential area, someone might notice him. And if he tried to intercept the girls on one of those streets AFTER seeing them leave the Plaza parking lot, then he would be running the risk of getting lost in the maze of streets, or having to make it all a very complicated "controlled time of arrival" problem. Again, it COULD be done, but with much more risk of his being seen or of the girls running away to one of the many houses on the route.

    You are also correct about the view (of the residential area) that an abductor would have had from the parking lot. Even today, you have to look through trees to see Faulkner, and then you do not see much of it. If the abductor DID NOT know the girls, then he wouldn't know where they lived or what their destination was after leaving the Plaza. He might drive some how to the intersection of Drumm and McComas, and the girls could have gone into any of 41 houses before that intersection.

    So, unless he in some way had learned where they lived, or at least how much of the route they walked, then his best place to abduct would be in the parking lot itself.

  14. #29
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    This case really hit a nerve with me because on December 23, 1974, three girls, ages 9, 14 and 17 disappeared from the parking lot of Seminary South shopping mall parking lot in Ft. Worth, Texas, never to be seen again.

    http://www.missingtrio.com/TRIO/index.aspx
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/t/trlica_mary.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/w/wilson_lisa.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/...ley_julie.html

    When I hear of another case, so incredibly similar and even around a holiday it makes me wonder if these could somehow be connected.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Princess Rose View Post
    This case really hit a nerve with me because on December 23, 1974, three girls, ages 9, 14 and 17 disappeared from the parking lot of Seminary South shopping mall parking lot in Ft. Worth, Texas, never to be seen again.

    http://www.missingtrio.com/TRIO/index.aspx
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/t/trlica_mary.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/w/wilson_lisa.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/...ley_julie.html

    When I hear of another case, so incredibly similar and even around a holiday it makes me wonder if these could somehow be connected.
    Thanks PrincessRose. The similarities in this case are eery. The time of year was a time when the kids were on break from school, 2 days before Christmas, another church holiday. The girls were similar in age. It happened at a shopping center around the same time of day, they left early and planned to be home at 4pm. And all the girls are fair haired.
    The difference is there were 3 girls from 3 different families. The pain and anguish spread through three families. I just can't imagine.

    But I have to wonder, how someone got 3 girls in a vehicle relatively unnoticed. It sounds like there were some witnesses to some strange behaviors but not enough for anyone to intervene.
    This is the work of pure evil.

    It certainly seems these cases are connected. I'd love to know the descriptions of the men that were seen possibly forcing girls in vehicles.
    Children don't stop dancing

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