750 users online (105 members and 645 guests)  


Websleuths News


Page 1 of 9 1 2 3 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 125
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    685

    You can't do what you don't know.....

    There were elements to this crime that in my opinion made it impossible for either of the Ramseys to have been involved (not to mention their past history, etc.) Those that think one or both of the Ramseys were involved, believe it was an accident. There was a small window of 8 hours or less for all this supposed staging to occur. A loving parent would not have had the wherewithal or criminal mind to come up with some of the aspects of the crime such as:

    *The references to movie lines. There is no evidence that the Ramseys had an interest in extortion movies. They didn't know the movie lines, so couldn't have written them. Not one extortion-type video was in the house---and their computers were checked. They didn't cruise the internet looking for ideas.

    *Constructing the garrotte. I'm sure the type of knot has been identified. It was a very specific knot, and the garrotte not something most people would know how to make. The perp had knowledge of this type of weapon.

    *Stun gun. Criminals around the Denver area used these as weapons. There is no evidence whatsoever that the Ramseys ever had a stun gun, let alone knew how to use one.

    The brutality of the murder indicates someone who was not a stranger to violence.

    I don't believe the Ramseys could have orchestrated any staging in the small window of time between when JBR went to bed and when Patsy called the police, and they did not have criminal minds. That alone should have been a flag to the Boulder police dept. You can't say this was an accident covered-up, without looking at the elements of any so-called staging, and the knowledge-base of the Ramseys.

  2. #2
    Boy if this post isn't rehashing I don't know what is. Point by Point, from someone who originally thought the Ramsey's "could be" innocent.

    M: There were elements to this crime that in my opinion made it impossible for either of the Ramseys to have been involved (not to mention their past history, etc.)

    N: There are many if not thousands of cases of seemingly normal people who have no history of violence who have commited crimes against others not to mention their own children Susan Smith is one of them. IMO Patsy Ramsey fits the psychological profile to commit such said crime/accident.


    M: Those that think one or both of the Ramseys were involved, believe it was an accident. There was a small window of 8 hours or less for all this supposed staging to occur. A loving parent would not have had the wherewithal or criminal mind to come up with some of the aspects of the crime such as:

    N: 8 hours! Do you realise how long 8 hours is? That's an entire work day. Heck in 8 hours I can type to sales proposals, surf the internet, etc. 8 hours is certainly long enough to cover a murder.

    M: *The references to movie lines. There is no evidence that the Ramseys had an interest in extortion movies. They didn't know the movie lines, so couldn't have written them. Not one extortion-type video was in the house---and their computers were checked. They didn't cruise the internet looking for ideas.

    N: LOL you make it sound like these movies were made especially for those interested in extortion. These were top rental videos at the time. Ransom was #1 at the box office. The Ramsey's rented movies. No need to cruise the internet, remembering lines from movies is not hard to do. Especially if one had just viewed them in the past month.

    M: *Constructing the garrotte. I'm sure the type of knot has been identified. It was a very specific knot, and the garrotte not something most people would know how to make. The perp had knowledge of this type of weapon.

    N: This knot was NOT difficult to tie and JR was an avid sailor. 1+1.

    M: *Stun gun. Criminals around the Denver area used these as weapons. There is no evidence whatsoever that the Ramseys ever had a stun gun, let alone knew how to use one.

    N: My pet peave. There is absoultely NO conclusive evidence that a stun gun was used in this crime. Why? Because the Ramsey (who admittingly were very wealthy) refused to exhume the body of their daughter at the request of Lou Smit to determine this. Right there alone is evidence IMO of a cover-up. There was a manual found in their home however regarding protecting onself and it in was a discription on how to use a stun gun. Either way no evidence one was used.

    M: The brutality of the murder indicates someone who was not a stranger to violence.

    N: Wrong, the brutality of a murder of a victim indicates that the perpetrator had close ties to the victim.

    M: I don't believe the Ramseys could have orchestrated any staging in the small window of time between when JBR went to bed and when Patsy called the police, and they did not have criminal minds. That alone should have been a flag to the Boulder police dept. You can't say this was an accident covered-up, without looking at the elements of any so-called staging, and the knowledge-base of the Ramseys.

    N: And I say that any perpetrator that stayed 8+ hours in that house without worrying about being discovered is just plain nonsense. Stranger abductions/kidnappings don't take hours to complete. To this this pedophile spent all this time with his victim and then 8 hours to cover it up seems pretty far fetched.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Somewhere In Time
    Posts
    5,838
    Quote Originally Posted by Nedthan Johns View Post
    Boy if this post isn't rehashing I don't know what is. Point by Point, from someone who originally thought the Ramsey's "could be" innocent.

    M: There were elements to this crime that in my opinion made it impossible for either of the Ramseys to have been involved (not to mention their past history, etc.)

    N: There are many if not thousands of cases of seemingly normal people who have no history of violence who have commited crimes against others not to mention their own children Susan Smith is one of them. IMO Patsy Ramsey fits the psychological profile to commit such said crime/accident.


    M: Those that think one or both of the Ramseys were involved, believe it was an accident. There was a small window of 8 hours or less for all this supposed staging to occur. A loving parent would not have had the wherewithal or criminal mind to come up with some of the aspects of the crime such as:

    N: 8 hours! Do you realise how long 8 hours is? That's an entire work day. Heck in 8 hours I can type to sales proposals, surf the internet, etc. 8 hours is certainly long enough to cover a murder.

    M: *The references to movie lines. There is no evidence that the Ramseys had an interest in extortion movies. They didn't know the movie lines, so couldn't have written them. Not one extortion-type video was in the house---and their computers were checked. They didn't cruise the internet looking for ideas.

    N: LOL you make it sound like these movies were made especially for those interested in extortion. These were top rental videos at the time. Ransom was #1 at the box office. The Ramsey's rented movies. No need to cruise the internet, remembering lines from movies is not hard to do. Especially if one had just viewed them in the past month.

    M: *Constructing the garrotte. I'm sure the type of knot has been identified. It was a very specific knot, and the garrotte not something most people would know how to make. The perp had knowledge of this type of weapon.

    N: This knot was NOT difficult to tie and JR was an avid sailor. 1+1.

    M: *Stun gun. Criminals around the Denver area used these as weapons. There is no evidence whatsoever that the Ramseys ever had a stun gun, let alone knew how to use one.

    N: My pet peave. There is absoultely NO conclusive evidence that a stun gun was used in this crime. Why? Because the Ramsey (who admittingly were very wealthy) refused to exhume the body of their daughter at the request of Lou Smit to determine this. Right there alone is evidence IMO of a cover-up. There was a manual found in their home however regarding protecting onself and it in was a discription on how to use a stun gun. Either way no evidence one was used.

    M: The brutality of the murder indicates someone who was not a stranger to violence.

    N: Wrong, the brutality of a murder of a victim indicates that the perpetrator had close ties to the victim.

    M: I don't believe the Ramseys could have orchestrated any staging in the small window of time between when JBR went to bed and when Patsy called the police, and they did not have criminal minds. That alone should have been a flag to the Boulder police dept. You can't say this was an accident covered-up, without looking at the elements of any so-called staging, and the knowledge-base of the Ramseys.

    N: And I say that any perpetrator that stayed 8+ hours in that house without worrying about being discovered is just plain nonsense. Stranger abductions/kidnappings don't take hours to complete. To this this pedophile spent all this time with his victim and then 8 hours to cover it up seems pretty far fetched.
    Reddened by Ames..
    Boy, ain't THAT the truth. I have hashed and re-hashed this with Maikai, until I am blue in the face. I give up. Apparently Maikai hasn't done the research that we all have.
    "This time we get it right."

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    5,299
    Quote Originally Posted by Nedthan Johns View Post
    These were top rental videos at the time. Ransom was #1 at the box office. The Ramsey's rented movies.
    This is classic RDI. The assertion is that the Ramsey's rented movies, therefore they had seen and were inspired by the movie Ransom, which was #1 at the time. Reminds me of the '2.89 receipt' logic where a receipt for an item of the same price as black duct tape is concluded to be for tape. Nobody really knows if they bought tape or not. There's lots of stuff sells for the same price, nobody knows how many items. Could be 100's.


    Question for NJ: Do you know for a fact that the R's had ever even seen Ransom at the time their daughter was murdered, or are you just throwing that out there on probability? I mean, it was #1, they rented movies, so they had to have seen it, right?

    I've never seen Ransom. It has Harrison Ford in it, right?



    Quote Originally Posted by Nedthan Johns View Post
    N: Wrong, the brutality of a murder of a victim indicates that the perpetrator had close ties to the victim.

    Wow. There are 1000's of examples worldwide of brutal, vicious murders where the killer did not know the victim more than a few hours.

    Where do you get your facts, anyway?

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Somewhere In Time
    Posts
    5,838
    Quote Originally Posted by Holdontoyourhat View Post
    This is classic RDI. The assertion is that the Ramsey's rented movies, therefore they had seen and were inspired by the movie Ransom, which was #1 at the time. Reminds me of the '2.89 receipt' logic where a receipt for an item of the same price as black duct tape is concluded to be for tape. Nobody really knows if they bought tape or not. There's lots of stuff sells for the same price, nobody knows how many items. Could be 100's.


    Question for NJ: Do you know for a fact that the R's had ever even seen Ransom at the time their daughter was murdered, or are you just throwing that out there on probability? I mean, it was #1, they rented movies, so they had to have seen it, right?

    I've never seen Ransom. It has Harrison Ford in it, right?






    Wow. There are 1000's of examples worldwide of brutal, vicious murders where the killer did not know the victim more than a few hours.

    Where do you get your facts, anyway?
    Do you know for a fact that they didn't ?
    "This time we get it right."

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    1,019
    I know what Maikai means, but to me, emphasising this whole study of the behavioural pathology of the Ramseys and the discussion of movies and the window of opportunity for the crime is to ignore the fact that the same issues apply to an intruder - only more so given that the 'intruder' was operating in an alien environment. . An intruder only had 8 hours to write a ransom note (plus practice notes), dispense with JBR, escape without a trace, feed JBR pineapple, etcetera ad infinitum. Equally, given that the intruder had to know the Ramseys, who within their circle had any criminal antecedents? In fact, who anywhere ever has committed a crime quite like the JBR murder? If you are going to talk about the Ramseys' past, you have also to accept that no other criminal had likely form. IOW, these arguments cut both ways.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    685
    Quote Originally Posted by Ames View Post
    Do you know for a fact that they didn't ?
    They had not seen "Ransom." "Dirty Harry" movie lines were in the note....I think that was from the 70's, and a classic. It had been on TV. John Ramsey said "Speed" was on a plane one time, but he didn't have the earpieces. Most of that note was movie lines...except for the last sarcastic part, which I think was adlibbed on the spot. The rest of it, had been thought out before.

    The Boulder Camera had a movie line contest every year, with the results published in January. I think the ransom note idea could have come from that.

    Other possibilities of movies could be "Seven" with Kevin Spacey (ie: reference to beheading and proper burial). Also, the movie with Bett Midler where she is kidnapped..forget the name.

    I think the perp was proud of his cleverness with the note...but it indicates someone that had seen these movies.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    685
    [QUOTE=Holdontoyourhat;3548158]I've never seen Ransom. It has Harrison Ford in it, right?

    /QUOTE]

    Mel Gibson was the father in the movie, and a mulit-millionaire who started an airlines from nothing. Gary Sinese played the cop/detective turned bad. He targeted Mel Gibson because of a union disagreement, where Mel Gibson made a payout to settle it---he was never indicted for that, and the union guy was in prison. It made the news at the time. He told Mel Gibson the reason he picked him was he paid to get out of trouble.

    At one point Gibson asked the FBI guy--why only $2M? Don't they know I'm worth a lot more? FBI responded that it was smart---they knew he had it and could come up with it easily. They had Gibson jumping through hoops to deliver the money, and he was to put it in a "suitcase."

    Sinese played a sarcastic smart-@ss....and repeatedly called Gibson by his first name--not unlike the sarcasm in the ransom note.

    The ransom note follows "Dirty Harry." At one time I watched the movie and made a list of the similarities, but it's stored on a floppy and I have a different computer with CD's...I may resurrect it sometime. However, in the beginning they flash the extortion note on a big screen. There's a reference to the perp calling at a certain time. (8?) It then has Clint going through hoops to deliver the money...and the references to a dog peeing.

    I can't recall movie lines on the spot.....Patsy never saw these movies...so how could she come up with the lines? Makes no sense.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    SWFL
    Posts
    2,909

    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by Ames View Post
    Reddened by Ames..
    Boy, ain't THAT the truth. I have hashed and re-hashed this with Maikai, until I am blue in the face. I give up. Apparently Maikai hasn't done the research that we all have.
    Oops....I should have given you the Heads-Up....Maikai has been around FOREVER and has far more interesting stories/visions to entertain us with! So, let's hear about your experiences instead, Maikai!

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Somewhere In Time
    Posts
    5,838
    Quote Originally Posted by RiverRat View Post
    Oops....I should have given you the Heads-Up....Maikai has been around FOREVER and has far more interesting stories/visions to entertain us with! So, let's hear about your experiences instead, Maikai!
    I will say that Maikai is probably one of the friendliest IDI's that I have ever posted with. No matter what I say...Maikai never has a smart aleck remark...like some of them do.
    "This time we get it right."


  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Ceti Alpha V
    Posts
    13,221
    Before I get started, Maikai, I think it's helpful to remember who you're talking to. I used to be a very strong IDI. VERY strong. Obviously, that's done with now, and if you'de like to know why, I'd be happy to go over it (AGAIN), but for now, it's enough to know that I've been the route, and have made these arguments in the past.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maikai View Post
    There were elements to this crime that in my opinion made it impossible for either of the Ramseys to have been involved (not to mention their past history, etc.)
    That's fairly clear.

    Those that think one or both of the Ramseys were involved, believe it was an accident.
    Not ALL. Most, I would imagine.

    There was a small window of 8 hours or less for all this supposed staging to occur.
    Plenty of time. Take it from a salesman: 8 hours is a loooong time.

    A loving parent would not have had the wherewithal or criminal mind to come up with some of the aspects of the crime such as:
    You might as well move on.

    *The references to movie lines. There is no evidence that the Ramseys had an interest in extortion movies. They didn't know the movie lines, so couldn't have written them. Not one extortion-type video was in the house---and their computers were checked. They didn't cruise the internet looking for ideas.
    Movie lines are all over the place, Maikai. Heaven only knows how many I can list off the top of my head.

    *Constructing the garrotte. I'm sure the type of knot has been identified. It was a very specific knot, and the garrotte not something most people would know how to make. The perp had knowledge of this type of weapon.
    Actually, the knots were very simple. Any dope could have made them.

    *Stun gun. Criminals around the Denver area used these as weapons. There is no evidence whatsoever that the Ramseys ever had a stun gun, let alone knew how to use one.
    There's no evidence a stun gun WAS used. And I'm not just talking out my a** here. I happen to own one. And I've had myself zapped several times to see if it was a viable theory. Let's just say the results were part-in-parcel to my conversion...

    The brutality of the murder indicates someone who was not a stranger to violence.
    Someone sure tried to make it LOOK brutal, certainly.

    I don't believe the Ramseys could have orchestrated any staging in the small window of time between when JBR went to bed and when Patsy called the police, and they did not have criminal minds.
    Whomever did this didn't have a criminal mind, either! It was amateur night; you could tell. This was not a perfect murder by design; it was a perfect murder (or almost perfect) by luck.

    That alone should have been a flag to the Boulder police dept.
    It was, but in a much different way than you're thinking.

    You can't say this was an accident covered-up, without looking at the elements of any so-called staging, and the knowledge-base of the Ramseys.
    What do you think I've been doing for the last 12 years?
    I'm as mad as HELL and I'm NOT gonna take it anymore!.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Ceti Alpha V
    Posts
    13,221
    Quote Originally Posted by Holdontoyourhat View Post
    I've never seen Ransom. It has Harrison Ford in it, right?
    Nope, Mel Gibson, Rene Russo and Gary Sinise.

    (I get the feeling I'm going to regret that!)
    I'm as mad as HELL and I'm NOT gonna take it anymore!.

  13. #13
    What is an IDI?

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Melbourne, Oz
    Posts
    254
    Someone who believes an "Intruder Did It" as opposed to an RDI - "Ramseys Did It".

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Ceti Alpha V
    Posts
    13,221
    Quote Originally Posted by missyjane77 View Post
    What is an IDI?
    http://websleuths.com/forums/showthr...ID#post3253018
    I'm as mad as HELL and I'm NOT gonna take it anymore!.

Page 1 of 9 1 2 3 ... LastLast