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  1. #1
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    The time of death

    Now I'm confused everyone always says she died in the early morning hours.But the autopsy shows 1323 if I know military time that makes it 1:23 pm on the 26.I just like to know if someone can put some light on the time of death

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravyn View Post
    Now I'm confused everyone always says she died in the early morning hours.But the autopsy shows 1323 if I know military time that makes it 1:23 pm on the 26.I just like to know if someone can put some light on the time of death


    Someone may correct me, but I understand the 1323 referred to the time the body was found since the coroner couldn't establish an actual time of death. I may be wrong, though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sophie View Post
    Someone may correct me, but I understand the 1323 referred to the time the body was found since the coroner couldn't establish an actual time of death. I may be wrong, though.
    You nailed it, Sophie. That's what it refers to. As for the actual time of death, nobody's 100% sure. Some estimates put it as "early" as 11:00 or 11:30, and many put it more towards midnight or 1:00 AM. Werner Spitz seemed to lean towards the latter, but even he couldn't say for sure.

    Add to that the gravestone says "December 25th."
    I'm as mad as HELL and I'm NOT gonna take it anymore!.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravyn View Post
    Now I'm confused everyone always says she died in the early morning hours.But the autopsy shows 1323 if I know military time that makes it 1:23 pm on the 26.I just like to know if someone can put some light on the time of death
    The coroner neglected to perform two important tests that would have helped establish a TOD. He used the time the body was "discovered" on his report. The level of rigor mortis combined with the pineapple that was able to be identified in her digestive tract as well as the family's timeline of events that night help put the TOD between 11pm Dec. 25 to 1am Dec. 26. The Ramsys put Dec. 25th on their daughter's gravestone. No doubt they know.
    THIS time, we get it RIGHT!

    This post is my constitutionally-protected opinion. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  5. #5
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    I've said this before,but with JR trying to account for his prints on the walk-in fridge,I think it's possible the R's may have attempted to askew the TOD by temporarily placing her body in there.Or perhaps they put it there until they decided what to do next.
    The cornoner not doing those 2 vital procedures (which would be relevant to establishing a TOD),IMO means he was told not to do them.On top of it all,it was a child murder and no way would any cornonor just happen to 'forget' to do those 2 things.
    something to ponder:

    When the corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and the mortal have put on immortality, then shall we be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

    O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?

    The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.
    But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
    1 Corinthians 15:54-57

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMO8778 View Post
    I've said this before,but with JR trying to account for his prints on the walk-in fridge,I think it's possible the R's may have attempted to askew the TOD by temporarily placing her body in there.Or perhaps they put it there until they decided what to do next.
    The cornoner not doing those 2 vital procedures (which would be relevant to establishing a TOD),IMO means he was told not to do them.On top of it all,it was a child murder and no way would any cornonor just happen to 'forget' to do those 2 things.
    I am sure he was told not to do them. There was likely a flurry of frantic phone calls during the night, and the word went around fast.
    However, the livor mortis patterns indicate she was not moved after death past 15 minutes or so. If she was placed in the fridge, there'd be TWO livor patterns. There is only one. Also, rigor begins to form within that time, though milder at first. Her body was not moved from a supine position after 15 or so minutes of death. The fluid oozing from her mouth happened while she was still alive (probably from the head bash) and the pattern (down along her right cheek) agrees with the position of her head when she was found (cocked to the right). The garrote knot seems to have been tied when she was on her stomach, as was the postmortem urine release (found anterior on the body-down the front). So she was turned on her back right after. And that's where I think she was left. IMHO.
    I really don't think she was put in the fridge OR basement freezer at all. I think she was handled after death minimally to be wiped down, redressed, and then put in the wineceller. The garroting happened when she was still alive, as did whatever caused the vaginal bleeding. They may not have known she was alive, though.
    THIS time, we get it RIGHT!

    This post is my constitutionally-protected opinion. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
    I am sure he was told not to do them. There was likely a flurry of frantic phone calls during the night, and the word went around fast.
    However, the livor mortis patterns indicate she was not moved after death past 15 minutes or so. If she was placed in the fridge, there'd be TWO livor patterns. There is only one. Also, rigor begins to form within that time, though milder at first. Her body was not moved from a supine position after 15 or so minutes of death. The fluid oozing from her mouth happened while she was still alive (probably from the head bash) and the pattern (down along her right cheek) agrees with the position of her head when she was found (cocked to the right). The garrote knot seems to have been tied when she was on her stomach, as was the postmortem urine release (found anterior on the body-down the front). So she was turned on her back right after. And that's where I think she was left. IMHO.
    I really don't think she was put in the fridge OR basement freezer at all. I think she was handled after death minimally to be wiped down, redressed, and then put in the wineceller. The garroting happened when she was still alive, as did whatever caused the vaginal bleeding. They may not have known she was alive, though.
    Now I agree that I think they didn't know she was still alive.But PR said she undressed her down to the shirt that she was wearing also said she said put the longjohns on her.Please enlighten me to where you heard she was wiped down and redressed

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravyn View Post
    Now I agree that I think they didn't know she was still alive.But PR said she undressed her down to the shirt that she was wearing also said she said put the longjohns on her.Please enlighten me to where you heard she was wiped down and redressed
    It is common knowledge, and you can Google it....or I can post interviews if you would like...that whoever killed JB, wiped her down, put size 12 panties on her (she wore a 6), and then put her longjohns back on her. A fiber from John Ramsey's Israeli (sp?) shirt, was found on JB's crotch area, so IMO...that is what was used to wipe her off with. After the insertion of the paintbrush handle, JB obviously bled...she...according to the experts, was wiped down in that area. A pair of new, never before worn panties...size 12 were placed on her (obviously to get rid of evidence). Patsy said that she had bought a package of "Days of the Week" panties for JB, size 6, and a package of them for her a relative, size 12...to give as a present. We don't know where those panties were kept...Patsy said that JB wanted them, so she put them in her panty drawer, but alot of folks believe that they were wrapped and in the basement, with the other presents. Either way...only SHE would have known where they were kept. The size 12 panties that were placed on her afterward, looked exactly the same as the size 6 Wednesday panties, that she had worn that day...except for the size, they were identical. There had to be a reason for that. It is well known that JB would ask anybody around to wipe her, so alot of people believe that the Ramsey's placed those identical panties on her, after her death...just in case someone at the WHite's party had been asked to wipe her after she went to the bathroom. (Remember, Patsy said that JB was placed sleeping in her bed...she fell asleep in the car on the way back from the party..and that is the last time that she saw her). So, the panties had to look the same. Nevermind that they were way, WAY to big for her..several sizes to big. The main thing to the Ramsey's was...get rid of evidence...and the fact that the panties looked identical to the ones that she wore to the Whites.
    "This time we get it right."

  9. #9
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    Again, I may be showing my ignorance here but I seem to remember reading that pineapple had a fairly standard digestion rate so you could just about compute a TOD from the state of the pineapple remains found in JB's digestive system?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMO8778 View Post
    I've said this before,but with JR trying to account for his prints on the walk-in fridge,I think it's possible the R's may have attempted to askew the TOD by temporarily placing her body in there.Or perhaps they put it there until they decided what to do next.
    The cornoner not doing those 2 vital procedures (which would be relevant to establishing a TOD),IMO means he was told not to do them.On top of it all,it was a child murder and no way would any cornonor just happen to 'forget' to do those 2 things.

    I had never thought of the omission as being anything other than dappyness or maybe even negligence. That the coroner had a brief not to carry out the tests hadn't occurred to me and I'm now going cross-eyed thinking about the possibilities!


  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
    I am sure he was told not to do them. There was likely a flurry of frantic phone calls during the night, and the word went around fast.
    However, the livor mortis patterns indicate she was not moved after death past 15 minutes or so. If she was placed in the fridge, there'd be TWO livor patterns. There is only one. Also, rigor begins to form within that time, though milder at first. Her body was not moved from a supine position after 15 or so minutes of death. The fluid oozing from her mouth happened while she was still alive (probably from the head bash) and the pattern (down along her right cheek) agrees with the position of her head when she was found (cocked to the right). The garrote knot seems to have been tied when she was on her stomach, as was the postmortem urine release (found anterior on the body-down the front). So she was turned on her back right after. And that's where I think she was left. IMHO.
    I really don't think she was put in the fridge OR basement freezer at all. I think she was handled after death minimally to be wiped down, redressed, and then put in the wineceller. The garroting happened when she was still alive, as did whatever caused the vaginal bleeding. They may not have known she was alive, though.
    sure,but considering she didn't actually die until after the garrote was applied,(likely in the basement),and the head wound was said to be inflicted possibly up to an hour before,I just wonder if she was in there for say,about an hour,if it overall would have made any difference.
    I'm not so sure they thought she was dead though...possibly,but,JR's words make me question that..his 'I'm so sorry,I'm so sorry',and 'I regret, I regret'..the only thing I can figure is that he regretted and was sorry about was the (chronic) abuse,and (due to that),the fact he'd made the decision as such in order to avoid that coming out.
    As has been said before,JR would have been arrested if they'd shown up in ER with JB's body showing the chronic abuse.If he were simply helping Patsy cover up an accident,and he'd thought she was already dead anyway,what would he have had to have been so personally sorry about,or to regret,as far as JB's death was concerned?
    That and the fact they wanted it high-tail it out of town (my opinion based on passports and items removed by PP) says IMO that they knew JB wasn't dead when the garrote was applied.
    I think the chronic abuse complicated the situation greatly,and I wonder if it hadn't happened,if things would have been done differently,although,of course, JB still would have died from the head injury.
    something to ponder:

    When the corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and the mortal have put on immortality, then shall we be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

    O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?

    The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.
    But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
    1 Corinthians 15:54-57

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sophie View Post
    Again, I may be showing my ignorance here but I seem to remember reading that pineapple had a fairly standard digestion rate so you could just about compute a TOD from the state of the pineapple remains found in JB's digestive system?
    Something like that.
    I'm as mad as HELL and I'm NOT gonna take it anymore!.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravyn View Post
    Now I agree that I think they didn't know she was still alive.But PR said she undressed her down to the shirt that she was wearing also said she said put the longjohns on her.Please enlighten me to where you heard she was wiped down and redressed
    I "heard" it from the coroner and from Det. Arndt, who was present at the autopsy. If you read it, it will "enlighten" you as well. Black light testing (routine on cases of suspected sexual assault) found evidence of her own blood on the thighs, along with fibers from what was used to wipe her down. There were fibers from the shirt JR wore that day found in the INSIDE of the crotch of her panties as well as on her pubic area. You will find this in the depositions JR gave to police. Available online.
    THIS time, we get it RIGHT!

    This post is my constitutionally-protected opinion. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  14. #14
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    I wonder if John's shirt was ever tested for JBR's blood. Hopefully its in the warehouse of evidence not yet tested.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by TinaD View Post
    I wonder if John's shirt was ever tested for JBR's blood. Hopefully its in the warehouse of evidence not yet tested.
    That is a good question. And I agree...hopefully it IS in that warehouse full of evidence not yet tested. I wonder what they are waiting for, anyway? I mean, geesh...that warehouse full of untested evidence has been sitting there for 12 years now.
    "This time we get it right."

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