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  1. #1
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    JonBenet Ramson letter - written before or after + linguistics

    Hello,
    This is my first thread I hope it is in accordance with forum rules.

    I am well aware that if you a RDI then the letter was probably written by Patsey (maybe John) AFTER the accidentally killing. Terms like "the killing won't be difficult...she dies, she dies...." is considered conclusive.

    RDI have argued that the ransom note was written after JB death, as there are certain phrases like "she dies, not she will dies, she will be beheaded (she wasn't beheaded) as evidence the note was written and the author knew she was dead.


    While an IDI could have written it before or after JonBenet's death, it most likely was written before. The statements in the present tense "If we catch you talking to a stray dog, she dies. If you alert bank authorities, she dies. If the money is in any way marked or tampered with, she dies. You will be scanned for electronic devices and if any are found, she dies.

    is present tense not future tense, but b/c the author may be quoting Dirty Harry and other films, he chooses to continue the convention in writing the present rather than past tense. Also to be considered is that if these lines do come from those movies, it would be something Patsey or John would write.

    Another statement "Don't try to grow a brain John" may come from Speed, and suggests the letter was written to conform to hollywood conventions, which case these statements may not reflect knowledge Jonbenet is dead (yet) but attempting to create a charade.

    another statemetn "
    Any deviation of my instructions will result in the immediate execution of your daughter. You will also be denied her remains for proper burial." has some resemblence to historical ransom notes, such as Leopold ad Lowe.

    Lastly, this individual Forensic linguistics
    By Gerald R. McMenamin, Dongdoo Choi


    Apply statistical linguistics on known exemplars and the RN, as well as previous known material where PR might have used similar find. His conclusion as a forensic linguists to a high degree of statistical certainly, PR could not have authored RN. By itself this is "interesting" but add that hand writing is unable to conclusively match it to her or JR strongly implies IDI.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by voynich View Post
    Hello,
    This is my first thread I hope it is in accordance with forum rules.

    I am well aware that if you a RDI then the letter was probably written by Patsey (maybe John) AFTER the accidentally killing. Terms like "the killing won't be difficult...she dies, she dies...." is considered conclusive.

    RDI have argued that the ransom note was written after JB death, as there are certain phrases like "she dies, not she will dies, she will be beheaded (she wasn't beheaded) as evidence the note was written and the author knew she was dead.
    Among other things.

    While an IDI could have written it before or after JonBenet's death, it most likely was written before. The statements in the present tense "If we catch you talking to a stray dog, she dies. If you alert bank authorities, she dies. If the money is in any way marked or tampered with, she dies. You will be scanned for electronic devices and if any are found, she dies.

    is present tense not future tense, but b/c the author may be quoting Dirty Harry and other films, he chooses to continue the convention in writing the present rather than past tense. Also to be considered is that if these lines do come from those movies, it would be something Patsey or John would write.

    Another statement "Don't try to grow a brain John" may come from Speed, and suggests the letter was written to conform to hollywood conventions, which case these statements may not reflect knowledge Jonbenet is dead (yet) but attempting to create a charade.
    Very astute.

    another statemetn "
    Any deviation of my instructions will result in the immediate execution of your daughter. You will also be denied her remains for proper burial." has some resemblence to historical ransom notes, such as Leopold ad Lowe.

    Lastly, this individual Forensic linguistics
    By Gerald R. McMenamin, Dongdoo Choi


    Apply statistical linguistics on known exemplars and the RN, as well as previous known material where PR might have used similar find. His conclusion as a forensic linguists to a high degree of statistical certainly, PR could not have authored RN. By itself this is "interesting"
    I would just remind you that the only OFFICIAL forensic linguistics examination turned up the opposite.

    but add that hand writing is unable to conclusively match it to her or JR strongly implies IDI.
    If handwriting analysis required a direct 100% match 100% of the time, there would be an AWFUL lot of guilty people walking around out there.
    I'm as mad as HELL and I'm NOT gonna take it anymore!.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by voynich View Post
    Hello,
    This is my first thread I hope it is in accordance with forum rules.
    Hi voynich. Welcome.

    Quote Originally Posted by voynich View Post
    I am well aware that if you a RDI then the letter was probably written by Patsey (maybe John) AFTER the accidentally killing. Terms like "the killing won't be difficult...she dies, she dies...." is considered conclusive.

    RDI have argued that the ransom note was written after JB death, as there are certain phrases like "she dies, not she will dies, she will be beheaded (she wasn't beheaded) as evidence the note was written and the author knew she was dead.


    While an IDI could have written it before or after JonBenet's death, it most likely was written before. The statements in the present tense "If we catch you talking to a stray dog, she dies. If you alert bank authorities, she dies. If the money is in any way marked or tampered with, she dies. You will be scanned for electronic devices and if any are found, she dies.

    is present tense not future tense, but b/c the author may be quoting Dirty Harry and other films, he chooses to continue the convention in writing the present rather than past tense. Also to be considered is that if these lines do come from those movies, it would be something Patsey or John would write.
    Hey, grammar, syntax? 's not my strong suit ... and I've often wondered about the errors within the rn....
    http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/conditional2.htm

    is present tense not future tense,-voynich

    Is it a conditional clause, first conditional? present imperative?
    ???
    reminds me of the french language ... again.


    Quote Originally Posted by voynich View Post
    Another statement "Don't try to grow a brain John" may come from Speed, and suggests the letter was written to conform to hollywood conventions, which case these statements may not reflect knowledge Jonbenet is dead (yet) but attempting to create a charade.

    another statemetn "
    Any deviation of my instructions will result in the immediate execution of your daughter. You will also be denied her remains for proper burial." has some resemblence to historical ransom notes, such as Leopold ad Lowe..
    Ya. It's very visual piece. whomever? the author/s may be. IMO congenial. cordial in parts.
    not sterile.

    Quote Originally Posted by voynich View Post
    Lastly, this individual Forensic linguistics
    By Gerald R. McMenamin, Dongdoo Choi


    Apply statistical linguistics on known exemplars and the RN, as well as previous known material where PR might have used similar find. His conclusion as a forensic linguists to a high degree of statistical certainly, PR could not have authored RN. By itself this is "interesting" but add that hand writing is unable to conclusively match it to her or JR strongly implies IDI.
    I wonder where PR results may have been distibuted if the provided sample was larger. Her sample's been critiqued as not being representative or inclusive of all the variations of form that may have existed pre Dec 1996.

    http://books.google.ca/books?id=oFMW...um=1#PPA182,M1

    "a limited sample of non request "natural" writings, produced before Dec 26, 1996....."

    I've also been wondering how a sample thought to be written by 2 writers would be analysed? What type of model is used for that and how that combination would affect form and analysis.

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    Hello,

    Yes, the book I am referring to is found at that link.

    http://books.google.ca/books?id=oFMW...um=1#PPA182,M1

    Page 205 10.6 conclusion, states that "Patricia Ramsey is excluded as the writer of the ransom letter". IF independent hand writing analysis also excludes her then the conditional probability of two separate lines of research excluding Pat R is pretty strong. The official linguistic analysis you speak of -- is it Donald Foster? While I have no way of identifying which linguistic analysis is more likely to be valid, at least one linguistic analysis rules out PR as RN author.

    The RN author does write in the future tense "You will withdraw $118,000.00" "The delivery will be exhausting" "Speaking to anyone about your situation, such as Police, F.B.I., etc., will result in your daughter being beheaded."

    vs

    f we catch you talking to a stray dog, she dies. If you alert bank authorities, she dies. If the money is in any way marked or tampered with, she dies

    Not "she will die". Not using "she will dies" destroys the parallelism that the earlier statements "will result, you will withdraw" so it sounds like the RN author is intentionally using the present tense since the author appears to be quoting various movies, and possibly earlier RN notes like Leopold and Loeb. Consequently, this line of reasoning would not support the conclusion the author is either female (since males are more likely to watch such movies) nor knows JonBenet is dead (indeed the RN fails to mention JB by name).

    I am aware that it is alleged that the "feminine" concerns in the RN like "be well rested" and "you will be denied a proper burial" implies a female writer, however this by itself is not conclusive since the Leopold and Loeb ransom note has

    "Allow us to assure you that he is at present well and safe. You need fear no physical harm for him" " we can assure you that you son will be safely returned to you" sounds feminine in the way the JB RN does.

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    IMO...Patsy wrote that RN, with help from John...after the fact. I believe that the part in the note that says..."Listen Carefully", was actually John saying that to Patsy...for HER to listen carefully to his words, as she wrote them down...but, in her grief and anxiousness, she actually wrote those words down on the paper. Also IMO...an intruder that had spent time writing the note inside of the Ramsey home, while they were away..would NOT have had any clue WHERE the Ramseys were, or WHAT TIME they would be home. As far as "he" was concerned...they could have been at the next door neighbors house....and could have returned at ANYTIME. So why would an intruder take the time to sit there in the home, and write an almost three page RN, not knowing where the Ramsey's were, or when they would returned? That would have been rather ballsy...for lack of a better word. Wonder what "he" would have had planned to say, if the Ramseys had of walked in on him? Hmmm...Hi there...I didn't expect you home so soon. I was just sitting here bored, while I waited for your return...so, I decided to write this three page ransom note, using your sharpie and pad. Ya see, I was planning on kidnapping and maybe murdering your daughter, and I wanted to write you this ransom note, so that you would know what was going on. So, here you go. I will see myself out.
    "This time we get it right."

  6. #6
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    I believe Patsy was PO'd at John in that last part...'don't try to grow a brain,John,you are not the only fat cat around'..IOW-----'shut your mouth,buddy...and don't even THINK about telling on me,because I have something on YOU!!!' (iow, she was just as big as he was!).IMO she was talking about the chronic sexual abuse found on JB.
    something to ponder:

    When the corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and the mortal have put on immortality, then shall we be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

    O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?

    The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.
    But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
    1 Corinthians 15:54-57

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    I agree.Now if it was intruder that knew his bonus.Thats means research into his whole income. Even if ex partner or employee surly knows hey need to ask for more.PR wrote the note and John Ramsey most likely was standing there beside her.

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    I agree that it's hard to imagine an intruder waiting there, however, there is a precedent -- "Amy" and JonBenet, and Amy took lessons at the same dance studio, Dance West, live very close to one another and happened 9 months. The current theory of details of the crime is that the intruder entered premises several hours earlier and waited.
    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...ain661569.shtm

    "Amy's father, who asked that his identity be obscured, agreed to talk about what happened that night: "My feeling is he got into the house while they were out and hid inside the house, so he would have been in there for perhaps four to six hours, hiding." .... "He was like a ghost," recalls Amy's father. "We couldn't figure out where he came from, or where he went."

    Amy's rapist faced the same informational hurdles an IDI

    Your account of "listen carefully" is as consistent w/IDI (mis) quoting or alluding to movie Dirty Harry (1971) similar with Don't try to grow a brain (speed).

    If the RN author did indeed intend to allude to these movies, and quite possibly Leopold Loeb murders ransom note, is it more likely that Patsy or John had these quotes in mind, or an IDI, perhaps an adolescent or college young male who likes this genre of movies/true crime?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravyn View Post
    I agree.Now if it was intruder that knew his bonus.Thats means research into his whole income. Even if ex partner or employee surly knows hey need to ask for more.PR wrote the note and John Ramsey most likely was standing there beside her.
    John Karr offered his "explanation" for the unusual amount, $100k + $18k for 18 years of age. Leopold and Loeb asked for thousands and in a post-conviction interview just fabricated the number as sounding convincing, as they were from wealthy families. They did it for the intellectual challenge, not money. If JR and PR did write it, it's somewhat surprising to me they didn't pretend ask for millions of dollars knowing JB is dead. The figure could be just as consistent with an IDI trying to show how inside he is to JR, and that this affair is some kind of intellectual challenge. If JR and PR did do this together, there's the risk that they might accuse the other, as L&L did.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by voynich View Post
    I agree that it's hard to imagine an intruder waiting there, however, there is a precedent -- "Amy" and JonBenet, and Amy took lessons at the same dance studio, Dance West, live very close to one another and happened 9 months. The current theory of details of the crime is that the intruder entered premises several hours earlier and waited.
    www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/12/16/48hours/main661569.shtm

    "Amy's father, who asked that his identity be obscured, agreed to talk about what happened that night: "My feeling is he got into the house while they were out and hid inside the house, so he would have been in there for perhaps four to six hours, hiding." .... "He was like a ghost," recalls Amy's father. "We couldn't figure out where he came from, or where he went."

    Amy's rapist faced the same informational hurdles an IDI

    Your account of "listen carefully" is as consistent w/IDI (mis) quoting or alluding to movie Dirty Harry (1971) similar with Don't try to grow a brain (speed).

    If the RN author did indeed intend to allude to these movies, and quite possibly Leopold Loeb murders ransom note, is it more likely that Patsy or John had these quotes in mind, or an IDI, perhaps an adolescent or college young male who likes this genre of movies/true crime?
    But was Amy bashed on the head, garotted and murdered? Was a Ransom note written for Amy's parents? The answer is no. Let's not forget that Patsy only scored 4.5 out of a possible 5...as someone that did NOT write the RN. Five being DEFINATELY didn't write it. If she DEFINATELY didn't write that RN, her score would have been 5. There are WAY too many similarities, so much so that even Nedra...Patsy's own mother, said that it looked like Patsy's handwriting. Even John says that it appears that a woman wrote it...and HE should know. IMO...this is the very reason that he didn't write it himself...I don't believe that he thought that they would ever get away with it. So, he let Patsy do the writing, while he dictated to her what to write. And if the same guy did it, that broke into Amy's house...why did he stick around to take her down to the basement, wipe her down...redress her in another pair of panties, that were size 12's, she wore a size 6, fashion a garotte, find and wrap her in a blanket, wouldn't he have gotten the heck out of dodge.
    "This time we get it right."


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    Quote Originally Posted by Ames View Post
    But was Amy bashed on the head, garotted and murdered? Was a Ransom note written for Amy's parents? The answer is no. Let's not forget that Patsy only scored 4.5 out of a possible 5...as someone that did NOT write the RN. Five being DEFINATELY didn't write it. If she DEFINATELY didn't write that RN, her score would have been 5. There are WAY too many similarities, so much so that even Nedra...Patsy's own mother, said that it looked like Patsy's handwriting. Even John says that it appears that a woman wrote it...and HE should know. IMO...this is the very reason that he didn't write it himself...I don't believe that he thought that they would ever get away with it. So, he let Patsy do the writing, while he dictated to her what to write. And if the same guy did it, that broke into Amy's house...why did he stick around to take her down to the basement, wipe her down...redress her in another pair of panties, that were size 12's, she wore a size 6, fashion a garotte, find and wrap her in a blanket, wouldn't he have gotten the heck out of dodge.
    In the case of "Amy"

    ****************
    Before going to bed, Amy's mother turned on the burglar alarm. Around midnight, Amy woke up to find a man standing over her bed, his hand over her mouth. "She remembered the intruder addressing her by her name," says Peterson. "He said, 'I know who you are.' He repeated those things a few times, apparently. 'I'll knock you out. Shut up.'"

    Peterson says Amy's mother heard whispering, and proceeded through the doorway, and saw a person, who just brushed her aside and quickly made his escape by jumping out a second-floor window.

    "He was like a ghost," recalls Amy's father. "We couldn't figure out where he came from, or where he went."

    By the time the Boulder police arrived, the man was long gone. Because the intruder had gotten in and out of the house so easily, Amy's father began to think this wasn't the first time he had done something like this.



    ************

    The crime was interrupted by the mother. He threatened to knock her out. He made it a point to tell her he knows who she is. He repeated his knowledge of this several times. He was interrupted and fled. No further details were offered publicly AFAIK. Without further details, it's speculation, for example, maybe the rapist did not think another kidnapping/ransom was worthwhile due to Amy's family wealth, that the handwriting might deflect attention from Ramseys, etc. How did this rapist know "Amy's" name? How, apparently did he enter without any signs of forced entry? Why did he state he knows who she is and repeat this to her several times? Why threaten with knocking her out? How did he know where is her bedroom? How did he know to wait several hours? How did he know about the burglar alarm would not be set? etc. What would he have done to Amy if he had not been interrupted? Did Amy and JR respond the same way to the rapist? How much time did he have with Amy vs JR? Why did he take this risk given he knew the mother was present in the house? How did he know how to exit (jumping from second floor?) and not risk say twisting an ankle or breaking a leg? Amy only lived 2 miles away, this happened 9 months after, both attended West Dance at same time period (West Dance itself was closed down) nothing was stolen, family was away when perp entered, to list some coincidental similarities.


    4.5/5 could be interpreted either way. How often are there false positives and negatives in other handwriting with this score, say independently confirmed with say hard evidence like DNA? I admit I don't know. The linguist I cited though states using quantitative measurements like sentence length and structure and 20 variables, that PR can be statistically ruled out as the author. This alone I don't know, this in combination with a 4.5/5 sounds more like IDI than RDI.

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    the 118k doesn't necessarily refer to JR's bonus.In fact,I don't think it does.It was also the amt Jeff Merrick settled with AG for..and if you read the interview,you will also find out who the three ppl (the 'SFF') were in the note (that JR helped write,IMO)...JM and friends were used because JM was known to have been upset with JR,and JR used him to try and set him up in the note.
    Thomas repeated mentioned that JR kept bringing up JM's name..and he wanted to know why.It wasn't until the so-called RN was released that he was able to put 2 and 2 together..

    http://www.acandyrose.com/20060830Bo...effMerrick.htm

    remember that as soon as JB's body was 'found',JR already had an explanation formed..that it was an 'inside job'.he already KNEW whom he was going to set up,and it all started in the note.

    and BTW,IMO Patsy GAVE AWAY the method they used to write the RN in their book..(DOI)..when she said that she and JR both wrote a version of the liturgy of the day,which they merged together into one..and the final version contained the words 'and hence'.
    Gotta love Patsy..she just never could stop confessing!
    something to ponder:

    When the corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and the mortal have put on immortality, then shall we be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

    O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?

    The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.
    But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
    1 Corinthians 15:54-57

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    The biggest clue in the note is where the perp says he will call tomorrow. Tomorrow would have been the 27th, with the Ramseys reading it on the morning of the 26th. I don't think that was the intent------the intent was after they read the note, JR was suppose to get the money, and the perp would call between 8 and l0 on the 26th. Saying "tomorrow" indicates the note was written on the 25th.

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    Quote Originally Posted by voynich View Post
    Hello,

    Yes, the book I am referring to is found at that link.

    http://books.google.ca/books?id=oFMW...um=1#PPA182,M1

    Page 205 10.6 conclusion, states that "Patricia Ramsey is excluded as the writer of the ransom letter". IF independent hand writing analysis also excludes her then the conditional probability of two separate lines of research excluding Pat R is pretty strong. The official linguistic analysis you speak of -- is it Donald Foster?
    It is.

    While I have no way of identifying which linguistic analysis is more likely to be valid, at least one linguistic analysis rules out PR as RN author.
    Your guess is as good as mine, voynich. From what I understand, there's no scientific basis behind it anyway. The only reason I brought it up is because one was an insider and one wasn't.

    The RN author does write in the future tense "You will withdraw $118,000.00" "The delivery will be exhausting" "Speaking to anyone about your situation, such as Police, F.B.I., etc., will result in your daughter being beheaded."

    vs

    f we catch you talking to a stray dog, she dies. If you alert bank authorities, she dies. If the money is in any way marked or tampered with, she dies

    Not "she will die". Not using "she will dies" destroys the parallelism that the earlier statements "will result, you will withdraw" so it sounds like the RN author is intentionally using the present tense since the author appears to be quoting various movies, and possibly earlier RN notes like Leopold and Loeb. Consequently, this line of reasoning would not support the conclusion the author is either female (since males are more likely to watch such movies) nor knows JonBenet is dead (indeed the RN fails to mention JB by name).
    Maybe not, but a few other things would. The fact that JB was not mentioned by name speaks volumes to me. Especially when coupled with other things.

    I am aware that it is alleged that the "feminine" concerns in the RN like "be well rested" and "you will be denied a proper burial" implies a female writer,
    Damn right.
    I'm as mad as HELL and I'm NOT gonna take it anymore!.

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    Quote Originally Posted by voynich View Post
    I agree that it's hard to imagine an intruder waiting there, however, there is a precedent -- "Amy" and JonBenet, and Amy took lessons at the same dance studio, Dance West, live very close to one another and happened 9 months. The current theory of details of the crime is that the intruder entered premises several hours earlier and waited.
    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...ain661569.shtm

    "Amy's father, who asked that his identity be obscured, agreed to talk about what happened that night: "My feeling is he got into the house while they were out and hid inside the house, so he would have been in there for perhaps four to six hours, hiding." .... "He was like a ghost," recalls Amy's father. "We couldn't figure out where he came from, or where he went."

    Amy's rapist faced the same informational hurdles an IDI
    Personally, I think that's a wild goose chase.

    Your account of "listen carefully" is as consistent w/IDI (mis) quoting or alluding to movie Dirty Harry (1971) similar with Don't try to grow a brain (speed).

    If the RN author did indeed intend to allude to these movies, and quite possibly Leopold Loeb murders ransom note, is it more likely that Patsy or John had these quotes in mind, or an IDI, perhaps an adolescent or college young male who likes this genre of movies/true crime?
    Like you said: intend. But even if so, what about all of the familial references in there?
    I'm as mad as HELL and I'm NOT gonna take it anymore!.

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