Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 51 to 75 of 78

Thread: CA - Long Beach - White Male 1392UMCA, 15-19, June 1978 - "Paid" stamp on hand

  1. #51
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Long Beach, CA
    Posts
    1,195
    Quote Originally Posted by CarlK90245 View Post
    As far back as I can remember, the Disneyland hand stamps were in invisible ink, viewable under a blacklight. I don't remember what the Knott's Berry Farm stamps looked like.
    Sorry...its been sort of a long time since I had been there. As soon as I read it, I remembered that they had sort of a yellow look to the ink.

    Roller skating rinks also used to stamp your hands, too. I think those were popular back then.

  2. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Ambercat For This Useful Post:


  3. #52
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Long Beach, CA
    Posts
    1,195
    It has been 34 years today since this young man was found in Belmont Shore. The Long Beach Press Telegram has an article about him, Shoreline Jane Doe, and another UID (a woman found near Esther St on the west side of Long Beach in 1989). There is a crime scene photo from the original investigation and a new [I believe] reconstruction of the UID --

    http://www.presstelegram.com/rss/ci_...ms-are-mystery
    My hair stood on end when I read his cause of death in the article (until now, I had always thought his death was a toxicology issue) --
    John Doe No. 146 could have still been in high school when he was strangled and his body was dumped in 1978, face down in the street in Belmont Shore. The long-haired teen looks like he is sleeping in the yellowed crime scene photos. Neither his body, found near Corona Avenue and Division Street, nor his clothing showed any signs of living on the streets.
    Could he be "Front of Ripples?" He is only two or three blocks away (Ripples is located at Granada and Ocean Blvd). I had just intended to check the news headlines and go to sleep, yet when I read the Press Telegram article, I had to relay the information.

  4. The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to Ambercat For This Useful Post:


  5. #53
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    El Segundo, California
    Posts
    6,341
    Here's the location where the John Doe was found. He was lying right where the "A" marker is in this photo on the north side of the street. E. Division Street is an eastbound one-way street.

    https://maps.google.com/maps?q=5230+...gl=us&t=h&z=19


    I wonder if the street was one-way in 1978. If it was eastbound one-way, it would be strange for someone to dump a body from the driver's side of the car. Either (1) there was a second passenger dumping the body from the rear-seat on the left-hand side of the car, or (2) the driver got out of the car and pulled the body out and dragged him to the side of the street (unlikely), or (3) he was driving the wrong-way on a one-way street when he dumped the body.


    ETA: Oops, never mind. I can see it was a two-way street based on the positions of the cars in the crime scene photo.
    Last edited by CarlK90245; 06-03-2012 at 11:55 PM.

  6. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to CarlK90245 For This Useful Post:


  7. #54
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    El Segundo, California
    Posts
    6,341
    Quote Originally Posted by Ambercat View Post
    It has been 34 years today since this young man was found in Belmont Shore. The Long Beach Press Telegram has an article about him, Shoreline Jane Doe, and another UID (a woman found near Esther St on the west side of Long Beach in 1989). There is a crime scene photo from the original investigation and a new [I believe] reconstruction of the UID --

    http://www.presstelegram.com/rss/ci_...ms-are-mystery

    My hair stood on end when I read his cause of death in the article (until now, I had always thought his death was a toxicology issue) --

    Could he be "Front of Ripples?" He is only two or three blocks away (Ripples is located at Granada and Ocean Blvd). I had just intended to check the news headlines and go to sleep, yet when I read the Press Telegram article, I had to relay the information.
    I noticed in that article that Detective Jones completely misstated the way CODIS and DNA testing works.

    Before detectives Jones and Dugan's last day on the job Thursday, all five profiles were entered into the Combined DNA Index System (CODIS), on the chance that a match might still be found. A relative can be swabbed and have their DNA compared to the DNA of the victims, though only if the relative is male, because an X chromosome must be present to make a match, Jones explained.
    BBM.

    First of all, it's the "Y" chromosome that is present only in males, not the "X" (Males are XY, females are XX).

    Secondly, the relative doesn't have to be male to be entered into the CODIS database. For nucDNA testing, any close relative, male or female can submit a DNA swab for comparison.

    And then there's mitochondrial (mtDNA) testing, which also can utilize the mtDNA from both males and females (provided that their familial chain that connects them consists of all female relatives.

    If Jones was correct, then he wouldn't have been able to enter the female UID's in CODIS because they don't have a Y chromosome.

    I wonder how many female MP family members have been told incorrectly by Jones that they cannot submit DNA to CODIS because they are not male.
    Last edited by CarlK90245; 06-04-2012 at 01:28 AM.

  8. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to CarlK90245 For This Useful Post:


  9. #55
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Long Beach, CA
    Posts
    1,195
    Recently, I e-mailed John Garcia, one of the owners of Ripples inquiring if they had used a PAID stamp on customers' right hand in 1978. He responded that he couldn't remember if they had or not. After looking at the reconstruction of the UID and reading the Press Telegram article, he said this about the UID --

    I read the article you sent me and that person you talk about could have been one of my customers back then, but I just am not able to positively say that he was. Maybe if there were more pictures that we could see I just might be able to help out, but with just this photo is an almost impossibility.
    Ripples is on Ocean Blvd at Granada, about 4 blocks from where the unidentified young man was found.
    http://goo.gl/maps/Igx8

    In the past, I read that John Doe "Wilmington," Edward Daniel Moore, Paul Fuchs, and Kevin Clark Bailey (previously John Doe "Airplane Hill") were believed to have been seen at Ripples prior to being found strangled (probably there are other victims of Randy Kraft who had gone there as well, these are the only young men I can think of off the top of my head). Also, Keith Crotwell was last seen alive at the parking lot on the other side of Ocean Blvd.
    Last edited by Ambercat; 06-19-2012 at 05:56 AM. Reason: Sorry, I am not able to paste the map in the post for some reason

  10. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Ambercat For This Useful Post:


  11. #56
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    El Segundo, California
    Posts
    6,341
    Did you send him the postmortem and my recon?

    WARNING - POSTMORTEM PHOTO AT LINK
    http://i1354.photobucket.com/albums/...00x600Q851.jpg

    I wish I had saved the pm of John Doe Wilmington when it was still up on the LA Co Coroner website.
    Last edited by CarlK90245; 10-09-2012 at 11:18 PM.

  12. The Following User Says Thank You to CarlK90245 For This Useful Post:


  13. #57
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Long Beach, CA
    Posts
    1,195
    Quote Originally Posted by CarlK90245 View Post
    Did you send him the postmortem and my recon?

    WARNING - POSTMORTEM PHOTO AT LINK
    http://i1354.photobucket.com/albums/...00x600Q851.jpg

    I wish I had saved the pm of John Doe Wilmington when it was still up on the LA Co Coroner website.
    I sent him a link to your reconstruction; I was a bit hesitant to send him the actual postmortem.

    I know what you mean about John Doe Wilmington. There's something about him that doesn't come through on the reconstructions.
    Last edited by CarlK90245; 10-09-2012 at 11:18 PM.

  14. The Following User Says Thank You to Ambercat For This Useful Post:


  15. #58
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Long Beach, CA
    Posts
    1,195
    Recently, I noticed Jean Vincent on the Doe Network who was from Canada, but was last seen in April 1978 in Arizona. Even though he was 20 years old when he went missing, there is something about him that really reminds me of this UID.

    http://doenetwork.org/cases/3758dmon.html

  16. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Ambercat For This Useful Post:


  17. #59
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    406
    1 year and 1 inch outside the age range. Other looks are similar, as is weight.

    Circumstances are not inconsistent - three months between disappearance and location of the body, and involving someone who took off 6 hours in one direction to look for a job... if that didn't work out, he could easily have ended up 6 hours in another direction, especially if his choices were go home or head to where the apparent prosperity is.

    Good find!

  18. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Cymro For This Useful Post:


  19. #60
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Long Beach, CA
    Posts
    1,195
    I e-mailed Daniel Machian (from the LA County Coroner's office) and the Missing Persons Department at the Ottawa Police asking if they could be the same person. Clines Corner (Torrance County), NM is sort of an unusual place to go to look for a job. I wonder if he had met someone in Flagstaff who offered him something there or if it was an advertisement or ???

    On a side note, I really believe that the UID that this tread is about was murdered by Randy Kraft. If the UID is in fact Jean Vincent, it adds another dimension to the "Vince M" notation on his list for Vincent Cruz Mestas (and why Mr. Mestas wasn't listed as simply Vince).

  20. The Following User Says Thank You to Ambercat For This Useful Post:


  21. #61
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    40
    I keep going back in my mind to thinking that this perhaps wasn't a club stamp. A stamp saying 'paid' seems like something you would have at a store at that time. My father certainly used one still when I was a teen (1990s) to stamp records of customers having paid for the item in full. I would believe that this would not be something used by a professional club but perhaps by a person having a private party but perhaps having an entrance fee to pay for beer or something like that and the stamp was really for a business. I would really like to see a picture of the stamp mark to see what type of stamp it was...

  22. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to elliha For This Useful Post:


  23. #62
    carbuff is offline ebook Bad Fairies available from Torridbooks.com, Amazon, B&N
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    New England
    Posts
    10,540
    Quote Originally Posted by elliha View Post
    I keep going back in my mind to thinking that this perhaps wasn't a club stamp. A stamp saying 'paid' seems like something you would have at a store at that time. My father certainly used one still when I was a teen (1990s) to stamp records of customers having paid for the item in full. I would believe that this would not be something used by a professional club but perhaps by a person having a private party but perhaps having an entrance fee to pay for beer or something like that and the stamp was really for a business. I would really like to see a picture of the stamp mark to see what type of stamp it was...
    That's a good point. Clubs would be much more likely to use something with the date on it, so you couldn't use last night's stamp to get into tonight's show.

    Wonder if that's something Kraft would have done to be funny -- pick up a guy turning tricks for money and then stamp him "paid" after the murder.
    Opinions expressed are strictly my own (who else would they belong to???)

  24. The Following User Says Thank You to carbuff For This Useful Post:


  25. #63
    carbuff is offline ebook Bad Fairies available from Torridbooks.com, Amazon, B&N
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    New England
    Posts
    10,540
    Quote Originally Posted by Cymro View Post
    1 year and 1 inch outside the age range. Other looks are similar, as is weight.

    Circumstances are not inconsistent - three months between disappearance and location of the body, and involving someone who took off 6 hours in one direction to look for a job... if that didn't work out, he could easily have ended up 6 hours in another direction, especially if his choices were go home or head to where the apparent prosperity is.

    Good find!
    I agree.

    Here's a map that shows Flagstaff AZ, Cline's Corner NM, and the spot where the body was found in Long Beach. Cline's Corner is a gas station/trading post/etc. founded by Roy Cline back when I-10 was Route 6 and then Route 66, and moved several times to stay near the highway. It's a major intersection out in the middle of nowhere, with a lot of tourist business and truck traffic all year round (http://www.theroadwanderer.net/66NMex/clines.htm). It's a very likely place to have gone looking for work.

    I think there was also a considerable amount of highway and dam construction going on in the New Mexico/Arizona area at that time.

    https://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=F...t=h&mra=ls&z=6
    Opinions expressed are strictly my own (who else would they belong to???)

  26. The Following User Says Thank You to carbuff For This Useful Post:


  27. #64
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Long Beach, CA
    Posts
    1,195
    I heard back from Daniel Machain from the LA County Coroner. I guess the possibility of this UID being Jean Vincent is an idea that's been around for awhile --

    We received an inquiry in July 2012 on this possible match. Ottawa authorities were contacted at that time and they were going to follow-up on this case and they would contact us when they have completed their investigation.
    I wonder how long investigations like this usually take?

  28. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Ambercat For This Useful Post:


  29. #65
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    El Segundo, California
    Posts
    6,341
    Bumping for image revision.


  30. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to CarlK90245 For This Useful Post:


  31. #66
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Long Beach, CA
    Posts
    1,195
    Recently, I was looking through some of the yearbooks at Classmates and couldn't help be struck by the resemblance between this UID and Craig Victor Jonaitis, a known victim of Randy Kraft who was found deceased near the Golden Sails hotel (about a 2 mile drive from the UID). http://www.classmates.com/yearbooks/...71087?page=184 There were other similarities as well (both victims were strangled and not mutilated).

    I wonder if the LA Coroner was ever able to compare the UID to Jean Vincent? NamUs still doesn't list any rule-outs.

  32. #67
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    224
    What was the cause of death?

  33. #68
    Venom's Avatar
    Venom is offline Opinions are made to be changed - or how is truth to be got at?
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    1,256
    Could he be:
    12. LB MARINA--Name unconnected to any unsolved murder.
    Off of the Randy Kraft "scorecard?" Link found here: http://articles.latimes.com/1988-10-...aft-case-randy

    Could it mean Long Beach Marina? Could our UP been picked up from, or connected to a marina around the area?
    The above mentioned text and views are my opinion and mine alone.

  34. #69
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Long Beach, CA
    Posts
    1,195
    Quote Originally Posted by DrDMike View Post
    What was the cause of death?
    Strangulation, according to the Long Beach Press-Telegram article.

  35. The Following User Says Thank You to Ambercat For This Useful Post:


  36. #70
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    112

    Paid stamp

    Quote Originally Posted by outofthedark View Post
    "PAID" stamp = amusement park? That was the first thing that came to my mind. When I go to Playland (Amusement park in British Columbia), they stamp your hand before you enter.
    Your post reminded me that I saw amusement rides in LB recently, which led me to search. There was a well-known amusement park in LB, close to the marina, that closed in 1979.

    Here is a link with photos http://www.millikanalumni.com/Pike/Pike.html.

    Wiki link [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pike"]The Pike - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame].
    "The pure and simple truth is rarely pure and never simple." ~Oscar Wilde

  37. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to redmeli For This Useful Post:


  38. #71
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Long Beach, CA
    Posts
    1,195
    Quote Originally Posted by Venom View Post
    Could he be:
    12. LB MARINA--Name unconnected to any unsolved murder.
    Off of the Randy Kraft "scorecard?" Link found here: http://articles.latimes.com/1988-10-...aft-case-randy

    Could it mean Long Beach Marina? Could our UP been picked up from, or connected to a marina around the area?
    Recently, I noticed something about the Long Beach Marina notation on Randy Kraft's list -- it actually looks like it reads "L.B. Marina - 1st ST"


    Not far from where this young man was found, on Alamitos Bay beginning near Bayshore and 1st St. and extending down to Ocean Blvd. and 55th Place there are two marinas (one is called the Leeward Sailing Center, where I learned how to sail a very small sailboat when I was a kid, I'm not sure what the other one is called or if either of them were there in 1978). The Long Beach shoreline has changed a lot over the years and there could have been a marina near First Street back in 1978 that is no longer there.

  39. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Ambercat For This Useful Post:


  40. #72
    Venom's Avatar
    Venom is offline Opinions are made to be changed - or how is truth to be got at?
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    1,256
    You're right, it does look like it says 1st St.
    Hmmm.
    The above mentioned text and views are my opinion and mine alone.

  41. #73
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    El Segundo, California
    Posts
    6,341
    This is a guy who has been in NamUs since 2011, but his casefile has remain unpublished until recently.

    The Date LKA is 01-Dec-79, and there is mention that he might have been tentatively ID'd as a guy killed in a car accident in 1985, but there was never any confirmation.

    Edward Champagne
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/13277/0



    But he sure looks alot like the Belmont Shore John Doe.



    I wonder how sure they are of Champagne's Date LKA.
    Last edited by CarlK90245; 01-25-2014 at 03:25 PM.

  42. The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to CarlK90245 For This Useful Post:


  43. #74
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Long Beach, CA
    Posts
    1,195
    Quote Originally Posted by CarlK90245 View Post
    This is a guy who has been in NamUs since 2011, but his casefile has remain unpublished until recently.

    The Date LKA is 01-Dec-79, and there is mention that he might have been tentatively ID'd as a guy killed in a car accident in 1985, but there was never any confirmation.

    Edward Champagne
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/13277/0



    But he sure looks alot like the Belmont Shore John Doe.



    I wonder how sure they are of Champagne's Date LKA.
    It's interesting that you mention Edward Champagne's LKA date, because I'd like to know that, too. I thought that Mr. Champagne looked a lot like William Bonin's victims and had wondered about him possibly being the unidentified victim found in Kern County in November 1979. I mentioned this to Carrie Sutherland at NamUs, asking her about his date LKA. She never got back to me about it. It looks like he was reported missing recently on November 4, 2013.

  44. #75
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Long Beach, CA
    Posts
    1,195
    Jean Vincent has been ruled out. He is the only exclusion listed in NamUs --

    https://identifyus.org/en/cases/4428

    I didn't notice this before, but it looks like Los Angeles County has DNA for this UID (somehow I was under the impression that they didn't have DNA for any of their UIDs from the 1970s, so I am glad that I was wrong about this).

  45. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Ambercat For This Useful Post:


Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 16
    Last Post: 06-22-2014, 10:36 PM
  2. Replies: 14
    Last Post: 04-26-2013, 01:37 PM
  3. CA CA - Marilee Bruszer, 33, Long Beach, 22 Aug 1978
    By Kat in forum 1970's Missing
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 09-21-2011, 01:40 AM
  4. Replies: 4
    Last Post: 07-26-2011, 07:23 PM
  5. Man dismembers body - takes head, left arm and right hand to Long Beach park
    By PickieChickie in forum Bizarre and Off-Beat News
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 05-31-2010, 03:10 AM

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •