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  1. #1
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    How difficult to forge PR's handwriting?

    I do agree that there does appear to be a strong resemblance between PR's handwriting using Cherokee's selected examples, and the RN.

    In order to evaluate this, though, one question to come in mind is how difficult would it be for someone to be able to write something similar yet different.

    I am well aware that handwriting experts testify in court as to whether a signature on a contract or check or will matches known exemplars or is an attempt to make forgery. What we have here, though, are there are two rational possibilities,

    PDI -- she "disguised" her handwriting, to mislead handwriting experts,
    IDI -- he saw some examples, and consciously attempted to forge PR's handwriting as closely as possible. Of course there are enough differences between his attempt and PR's genuine handwriting, and the fact that handwriting experts have a pre-existing expectation that PR will try to disguise her own handwriting as much as possible, to get away with this.
    How difficult is this task?

    Another way to think of this is:

    what % population writes in a manner broadly similar to PR and/or RN?

    What IF.... 40% create letters similar to PR?
    What IF....0.0001% create letters similar to PR?

    Hard to give specific examples here.
    Last edited by voynich; 04-23-2009 at 12:37 AM.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by voynich View Post
    I do agree that there does appear to be a strong resemblance between PR's handwriting using Cherokee's selected examples, and the RN.

    In order to evaluate this, though, one question to come in mind is how difficult would it be for someone to be able to write something similar yet different.

    I am well aware that handwriting experts testify in court as to whether a signature on a contract or check or will matches known exemplars or is an attempt to make forgery. What we have here, though, are there are two rational possibilities,

    PDI -- she "disguised" her handwriting, to mislead handwriting experts,
    IDI -- he saw some examples, and consciously attempted to forge PR's handwriting as closely as possible. Of course there are enough differences between his attempt and PR's genuine handwriting, and the fact that handwriting experts have a pre-existing expectation that PR will try to disguise her own handwriting as much as possible, to get away with this.
    How difficult is this task?

    There is no emotion, there is peace.
    There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
    There is no passion, there is serenity.
    There is no death, there is eternal rest
    IMO you have to add another possibility:

    IDI, never saw PR's handwriting, wrote the RN.

    I've looked at PR's exemplars. Her handwriting is smooth, neat, and easily ledgible. The RN author's handwriting is distorted, sloppy, scribbly, and there is a curious absense of rounded features. The
    RN letters d, b, f, and others are frequently squared off instead of rounded. Might consider having a peek at those. This is IMO an actual trait of the RN author that was mistakenly attributed to disguised handwriting.

    US Secret Service stated that there was no evidence to suggest PR executed any of the questioned material.

    There was no statement ever made by any expert that an intruder was attempting to copy PR's handwriting. This so-called resemblance between the two handwriting styles exists only in the mind of RDI. None of the handwriting experts hired by BPD would state that PR was the author. That pretty much sums it up. If someone were copying PR's handwriting, there would've been a false positive. There were no positives, false or otherwise.

  3. #3
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    Hi,
    I was going off Cherokee's
    http://www.forumsforjustice.org/foru...d.php?p=115065


    Whether these examples are cherry picked or representative I don't know. The RDI will allude to experts who think it is a match.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by voynich View Post
    Hi,
    I was going off Cherokee's
    http://www.forumsforjustice.org/foru...d.php?p=115065


    Whether these examples are cherry picked or representative I don't know. The RDI will allude to experts who think it is a match.
    Thats junk.

    Look for yourself.

    The 'y' in the RN is flat wrong, wierd. A short segment is nearly perpendicular to a long segment. It doesn't even look like a 'y'. If it weren't on the end of Ramsey, you wouldn't even know what letter it was!

    The 'y' in the painting is correct, with three segments. The difference shows in the overlay. Other differences abound.

    Again, thats just junk.

  5. #5
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    Playing Sith Advocate,
    obviously PR was consciously attempting to disguise her handwriting in the foresight of the eventuality that experts will attempt to link it to her and her historical samples.

    Personally, I wonder how hard would it be to get a new group of hand writing experts to assess this whose judgment and reasoning would bring balance to the Force.

    "You believe it is this handwriting expert"

  6. #6
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    Now I'm not saying this isn't possible but I feel like someone would had to know how PR wrote and pratice alot to get it to where even the experts could be fooled.But like I said before in this case any and everything is possible.

  7. #7
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    There might not never be a statement made about it but hey you never know.This case has twist and turns at ever corner.And voynich thanks for the post.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravyn View Post
    There might not never be a statement made about it but hey you never know.This case has twist and turns at ever corner.And voynich thanks for the post.
    May the truth be with you. Always.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holdontoyourhat View Post
    Thats junk.

    Look for yourself.

    The 'y' in the RN is flat wrong, wierd. A short segment is nearly perpendicular to a long segment. It doesn't even look like a 'y'. If it weren't on the end of Ramsey, you wouldn't even know what letter it was!

    The 'y' in the painting is correct, with three segments. The difference shows in the overlay. Other differences abound.

    Again, thats just junk.
    If you look very, VERY closely...enlarge the actual RN and Patsy's RN Sample...you will see very clearly, that any letter with a tail...like a Y for example...has a hook at the end of it. Both in the actual RN AND Patsy's sample RN. Almost like a checkmark...kind of. I can't duplicate it here, using a laptop keyboard.
    "This time we get it right."

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ames View Post
    If you look very, VERY closely...enlarge the actual RN and Patsy's RN Sample...you will see very clearly, that any letter with a tail...like a Y for example...has a hook at the end of it. Both in the actual RN AND Patsy's sample RN. Almost like a checkmark...kind of. I can't duplicate it here, using a laptop keyboard.
    Look at the 'y' at the end of Patsy in the painting, and the Y at the end of Ramsey in the RN. There is no similarity between the two. No need to look closely.


  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holdontoyourhat View Post
    Look at the 'y' at the end of Patsy in the painting, and the Y at the end of Ramsey in the RN. There is no similarity between the two. No need to look closely.
    No really...you need to enlarge them. And BTW, she used a different type of pen (maybe a paintbrush) to sign her name on the painting. You are comparing apples to oranges, because the RN author used a sharpie pen. You have to compare HER RN sample with the actual RN. Patsy used a sharpie for the SAMPLE, and the RN author used a sharpie for the real deal. It would be the only FAIR comparison, since they were both written with the same type of pen. Are you afraid of what you might find?? Go back and enlarge the two of them...Sample and RN....and see for yourself.
    "This time we get it right."

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by voynich View Post
    I do agree that there does appear to be a strong resemblance between PR's handwriting using Cherokee's selected examples, and the RN.

    In order to evaluate this, though, one question to come in mind is how difficult would it be for someone to be able to write something similar yet different.

    I am well aware that handwriting experts testify in court as to whether a signature on a contract or check or will matches known exemplars or is an attempt to make forgery. What we have here, though, are there are two rational possibilities,

    PDI -- she "disguised" her handwriting, to mislead handwriting experts,
    IDI -- he saw some examples, and consciously attempted to forge PR's handwriting as closely as possible.
    Those would be the choices.

    Of course there are enough differences between his attempt and PR's genuine handwriting, and the fact that handwriting experts have a pre-existing expectation that PR will try to disguise her own handwriting as much as possible, to get away with this.
    I'm not so sure about that. Makes sense, though.

    How difficult is this task?

    Another way to think of this is:

    what % population writes in a manner broadly similar to PR and/or RN?

    What IF.... 40% create letters similar to PR?
    What IF....0.0001% create letters similar to PR?

    Hard to give specific examples here.
    Interesting.

    You have done well.

    Whether these examples are cherry picked or representative I don't know.
    I can tell you there was no cherry-picking. Cherokee took most of those from an official side-by-side comparison that had already been done.

    The RDI will allude to experts who think it is a match.
    Darn tootin'!
    I'm as mad as HELL and I'm NOT gonna take it anymore!.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holdontoyourhat View Post
    IMO you have to add another possibility:

    IDI, never saw PR's handwriting, wrote the RN.

    I've looked at PR's exemplars. Her handwriting is smooth, neat, and easily ledgible. The RN author's handwriting is distorted, sloppy, scribbly, and there is a curious absense of rounded features. The
    RN letters d, b, f, and others are frequently squared off instead of rounded. Might consider having a peek at those.
    If I were in her position, I probably wouldn't write so neatly either!

    US Secret Service stated that there was no evidence to suggest PR executed any of the questioned material.
    ONE person makes a hasty preliminary evaluation, and THAT's your proof?

    There was no statement ever made by any expert that an intruder was attempting to copy PR's handwriting.
    Actually, Speckin came close to that.

    This so-called resemblance between the two handwriting styles exists only in the mind of RDI.
    YEAH, RIGHT! Her own mother couldn't tell the difference. But I figured you'd say that. After all, why should we believe our own eyes?

    None of the handwriting experts hired by BPD would state that PR was the author. That pretty much sums it up.
    It would, IF document analysis were that cut-and-dry. It isn't And they may not have stated it in court; privately is another matter.

    If someone were copying PR's handwriting, there would've been a false positive. There were no positives, false or otherwise.
    You mean like Ubowski saying the bleeding ink and disguised letters were the only thing keeping him from pegging her in court? And I'd really like to talk with voynich about that!
    I'm as mad as HELL and I'm NOT gonna take it anymore!.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by voynich View Post
    Playing Sith Advocate,
    obviously PR was consciously attempting to disguise her handwriting in the foresight of the eventuality that experts will attempt to link it to her and her historical samples.
    Very good.

    Personally, I wonder how hard would it be to get a new group of hand writing experts to assess this whose judgment and reasoning would bring balance to the Force.
    That's a tough one.I would say extremely hard, because there are several big problems with it. 1)It would have to be done a certain way, to be really sure. And I honestly think that you would be hardpressed to find a handwriting expert who hasn't already come to a conclusion with this note, at least privately. 2)The original note no longer exists. And to hear some people (mostly defense attorneys, who I wouldn't trust as far as I can throw a Star Destroyer barehanded) tell it, working from copies is worthless. 3) And perhaps most pregnant of all, the endless politicking that goes on within the document examination profession.

    "You believe it is this handwriting expert"
    I could name one I believe in.
    I'm as mad as HELL and I'm NOT gonna take it anymore!.

  15. #15
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    I am aware that standard arguments about using originals hinge on pressure applied. Since a marker was used I'm not sure whether these arguments apply. I do wonder how many or what percent of individuals that could emulate the handwriting appearance present in the RN (I don't personally know). One interesting experiment, would be to take known convicted child molesters-pedophiles in jail, and possibly cat home burglars, and ask them to consciously try to imitate as closely as they can, look at some samples of PR's handwriting, but not the actual hand written RN itself, and a text of the RN, and then try to write it out as closely as they can, and then present this and PR exemplars to the "experts" to see what they think, and whether, under the circumstances, they still identify PR over these other attempts.

    I'd like to think a professional and convicted forger would have better things to forge in his spare time, like wills, contracts, checks, than bogus RN notes.

    What do these various experts say about one another's conclusions?

    My own opinion is that PR and RN do look alike. What I don't know is how well a pedophile/cat burglar could, working with some samples of PR's handwriting, also produce a similar effort.

    So, hypothetically speaking, let's say that 70% of convicted pedophiles can look at Pasty's Xmas greeting card and letters present among her personal effects in 1996, written in her handwriting, and working with a printed text of the RN, could make an RN that convinces the experts it's a much better match than PR's police submitted and dictated examples. How much confidence would you have then, as opposed to say 1%?

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