Details Emerge: Casey/Cindy Fight - Part 2

For reference the "Details Emerge Casey/Cindy Fight" Part I thread is located here. Also worth noting per JBean's closing post on that thread that Part I was closed due to some "personal attacks". Soo...hoping everyone can stay on their best behavior.

Maybe this'll be a short one, but, I thought it deserved a follow-up. Worked this out on the Theories Part 5 thread as it pertained to the tension between Cindy & Casey that may have been a key motivator for Casey actions 6/16, and to begin a focused look at whether or not an overnight murder was plausible based on the information we have. Similar analysis done for the morning of 6/16 until Casey left the house here if interested, but, perhaps OT for "the fight" discussion on this thread.

The following will be a re-read for some that encountered it on the Theories or 6/15 Ping thread. I edited it a bit here and re-posted it so it could be snipped/parsed for detailed Q&A.

Sunday, 6/15/08

@ ~9:12AM Cindy and Caylee left for Mt. Dora (see Conway toll 9:27AM - 15 mins to toll from G&C's per Google Maps)
Per E-Pass records here

@ ~9AM Casey left G&C's and arrived @ Tony's ~9:15AM.

@ ~2:48PM Cindy & Caylee returned home to Hopespring. Per E-Pass records (and consistent w/ statements) (see matching Conway toll @ 2:33PM + 15 mins to toll from G&C's per Google Maps).

@ 3:35PM Cindy called Casey's cell from the Hopespring home phone. Casey let this call roll to vmail, and Cindy left a 36 second vmail.

@ 3:45PM Kyle called Casey's cell phone and Casey let this one roll to vmail also. At no time during this period did Casey interact w/ her phone.

@ 5:06PM, w/o checking vmail, Casey called G&C's Hopespring home phone from her cell phone @ Tony's apt. for a 3 minute conversation, or left a 3minute answering machine message.

...2 hours passed, w/ no activity on Casey's cell...

@ 7:06PM Casey began a text dialogue w/ Tony while she was still near his apartment. The pings from this conversation indicate Casey left Tony's ~7:06PM.

@ 7:10PM Casey already enroute & unprompted, called G&C's Hopespring home phone for a 1 minute conversation or answering machine message.

@ 7:36PM Casey arrived @ G&C's Hopespring home.

...between 7:06PM and 9:26PM Casey was engaged in a continuous texting conversation w/ Tony (and a little w/ Amy). The single greatest lapse between their texts was 11minutes @ 8:56 w/ most of them in the 2 minute range.

@ 9:26PM a period of cell inactivity lasting 39 minutes began (Inactivity Period I) . (IMHO, this seems to be a good candidate for "the fight")

@ 10:06PM Casey ended the cell inactivity when she received a text from Tony by placing a call to Tony and talking w/ him for 10minutes (IMHO, this also would seem to be indicative of the fight having just taken place)

@ 10:25PM the heavy texting between Casey and Tony resumed for the balance of the night...with a 40minute break @ 11PM. "(Inactivity Period II)

Note: WhyamIsoInterested observed this second period of inactivity would've encompassed the time George likely returned home and perhaps Casey spent a few minutes w/ him...being Father's Day... and apparently having not spent much time w/ him that day.

@ 11:44PM Casey called Tony for an 80-minute marathon phone call.

Some other things to consider...

• IIRC, George was @ work 6/15PM...based on his work schedule he would've been gone or in the process of leaving about the time Cindy & Caylee returned to Hopespring that afternoon.
  
• It has been speculated based on Casey's PhotoBucket activity timing (thanks JWG), as well as Casey's cell call durations during this timeframe each day, Caylee's naptime was typically 1-3PM. Since Caylee was @ Shirley's, etc. during her normal naptime, Caylee likely fell asleep in her carseat on the ride back to Hopespring (speculation).
  
• Cindy did NOT fire off several calls to Casey to come home. She simply left a vmail. Even when Casey didn't respond there were no add'l calls from Cindy. So, FWIW, it doesn't appear Cindy was anxious/upset w/ Casey about not coming home immediately @ this point.
  
• Casey was casual about coming home. She may have seen the missed call# and known about being called from Hopespring, but, she didn't check her vmail. She simply did her own thing for another couple of hours and called when she was on her way home.
  
• There appears to be an opportunity for Cindy & Caylee to have gone for a swim after arriving @ Hopespring after Caylee, perhaps, finished her nap. Recall they had eaten @ Shirley's. Dunno if they needed to eat again.
  
• By 9:26PM a tired Caylee should've already been in bed asleep. IIRC, C&G have indicated Caylee typically co-slept w/ Casey in her room. With George @ work still, and Lee nowhere around, this would've given the rest of the house to Cindy & Casey to have it out. By this time in the evening it would also seem to be quiet enough in the neighborhood that a shouting match would've been overheard...esp. if they carried it out into the backyard.
  
• This scenario would have Casey going into her bedroom (closing the door presumably) with Caylee already asleep after "the fight" if it indeed occurred @ 9:26-10:06PM, perhaps coming out for some time w/ George after he came home from work. Cindy likely went to bed after a long day - having to goto work on Monday morning.

Hoping this paints a clearer picture of the day & the circumstances to support productive discussion regarding "the fight".

Sounds like an excellent synopsis. However, it opens a new area of speculation about the reason behind the fight. If Cindy were angry about something Caylee had said to her, I can't imagine that she would have had the patience or impulse control to hold off on arguing until Caylee went to sleep. I think she would have hounded Casey until she came home to have it out. This timeline leads me to believe that the argument was about Casey wanting to leave Caylee at G&C's so she could go back to Tony's.

Following up, I wonder if the fight didn't begin on the phone at the
@ 5:06PM, w/o checking vmail, Casey called G&C's Hopespring home phone from her cell phone @ Tony's apt. for a 3 minute conversation, or left a 3minute answering machine message....
...and continue on during the 1 minute call while she's driving home here
@ 7:10PM Casey already enroute & unprompted, called G&C's Hopespring home phone for a 1 minute conversation or answering machine message.
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then maybe Cindy was busy/ignoring Casey until the
@ 9:26PM a period of cell inactivity lasting 39 minutes began (Inactivity Period I) . (IMHO, this seems to be a good candidate for "the fight")
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Thoughts???

BJB- WOW! I just have to say, this is nothing short of amazing... kudos to you and all those who added data to reference.:woohoo::woohoo:

Question- do we know if she was still at the house for the 80-minute marathon call with Tony at 11:44pm? are there ping maps to show this? I am curious as to her geographical location during this time and when it changed (ie. when she left the house).

thanks!

Apex-mom said:

BJB- WOW! I just have to say, this is nothing short of amazing... kudos to you and all those who added data to reference.:woohoo::woohoo:

Question- do we know if she was still at the house for the 80-minute marathon call with Tony at 11:44pm? are there ping maps to show this? I am curious as to her geographical location during this time and when it changed (ie. when she left the house).

thanks!

Click to expand...

Thanks for the kind words. It is certainly a compilation of many peeps work.

There's a link in the opening of the thread that'll point you to some similar analysis of 6/16 - although not quite as detailed. And, of course, there's the 6/16 ping thread in the case analysis forum. FWIW - short answer - IMHO Casey stayed @ G&C's all night and until the afternoon of 6/16.

Chezhire said:

Following up, I wonder if the fight didn't begin on the phone at the
@ 5:06PM, w/o checking vmail, Casey called G&C's Hopespring home phone from her cell phone @ Tony's apt. for a 3 minute conversation, or left a 3minute answering machine message....
...and continue on during the 1 minute call while she's driving home here
@ 7:10PM Casey already enroute & unprompted, called G&C's Hopespring home phone for a 1 minute conversation or answering machine message.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
then maybe Cindy was busy/ignoring Casey until the
@ 9:26PM a period of cell inactivity lasting 39 minutes began (Inactivity Period I) . (IMHO, this seems to be a good candidate for "the fight")
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thoughts???

Click to expand...

All very plausible. After seeing this I think the fight was about Casey not taking care of Caylee. Cindy called Casey @3:36 to tell her they were home. Casey did not go home until 4 hours later. Then between 7:06PM and 9:26PM Casey was engaged in a continuous texting conversation w/ Tony (and a little w/ Amy.) So, she could not have been taking care of Caylee. At least IMO it would be hard to text while bathing, brushing hair, putting on PJs, reading a bedtime story, etc. Cindy probably got Caylee to sleep at 9:26 and then laid into Casey about what a terrible mom she is being and if Cindy does everything anyways she might as well have custody of Caylee and kick Casey out of the house. Which set in motion Casey's anger and spite.

Thanks Bond for this thread and all the work you and others put into it.

Chezhire said:

Following up, I wonder if the fight didn't begin on the phone at the
@ 5:06PM, w/o checking vmail, Casey called G&C's Hopespring home phone from her cell phone @ Tony's apt. for a 3 minute conversation, or left a 3minute answering machine message....
...and continue on during the 1 minute call while she's driving home here
@ 7:10PM Casey already enroute & unprompted, called G&C's Hopespring home phone for a 1 minute conversation or answering machine message.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
then maybe Cindy was busy/ignoring Casey until the
@ 9:26PM a period of cell inactivity lasting 39 minutes began (Inactivity Period I) . (IMHO, this seems to be a good candidate for "the fight")
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thoughts???

Click to expand...

Very possible. Only thing I could point to the contrary was the absence of multiple calls from Cindy as might be the case for a "get your arse home" situation. But...possible it started stewing earlier...IOW...a slow burn...

Chezhire said:

Following up, I wonder if the fight didn't begin on the phone at the
@ 5:06PM, w/o checking vmail, Casey called G&C's Hopespring home phone from her cell phone @ Tony's apt. for a 3 minute conversation, or left a 3minute answering machine message....
...and continue on during the 1 minute call while she's driving home here
@ 7:10PM Casey already enroute & unprompted, called G&C's Hopespring home phone for a 1 minute conversation or answering machine message.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
then maybe Cindy was busy/ignoring Casey until the
@ 9:26PM a period of cell inactivity lasting 39 minutes began (Inactivity Period I) . (IMHO, this seems to be a good candidate for "the fight")
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thoughts???

Click to expand...

Need thoughts on whether CA would confront KC about stealing $$$ from grandmother SP via telephone or wait until she saw her in person.

hmmm - i just don't know...


fantastic synopsis, as always, BJB! ty ty ty!

Thanks Bond for this thread. Very well done as always. wish I had something to contribute. At what point was Lee at the home 6/15? I thought he was eyewitness to the "choking" part of the fight. Perhaps his testimony has something to offer here. If the rugrats let me do some research I'll be back.....

I thought maybe "The fight" might have been about KC stealing $ from SP or CA's Dad (dunno his name)? IIRC, I remember hearing SP confronting (maybe asking is a better word) CA about KC stealing from one of their accounts or something to that nature. When CA returned from her trip to see her parents on Father's Day w/ Caylee, it is likely that CA called KC to come home so they could talk about it.

Dear Prudence said:

All very plausible. After seeing this I think the fight was about Casey not taking care of Caylee. Cindy called Casey @3:36 to tell her they were home. Casey did not go home until 4 hours later. Then between 7:06PM and 9:26PM Casey was engaged in a continuous texting conversation w/ Tony (and a little w/ Amy.) So, she could not have been taking care of Caylee. At least IMO it would be hard to text while bathing, brushing hair, putting on PJs, reading a bedtime story, etc. Cindy probably got Caylee to sleep at 9:26 and then laid into Casey about what a terrible mom she is being and if Cindy does everything anyways she might as well have custody of Caylee and kick Casey out of the house. Which set in motion Casey's anger and spite.

Thanks Bond for this thread and all the work you and others put into it.

Click to expand...

My bold: You are onto something here DP....after a long day visiting ggpa CA would have been exhausted, having taken care of Caylee all day and then there is the money issue to boot, KC ignoring CA's phone call.....CA wanting some time for herself before collapsing in bed and then having to get up early the next day to work.....but noooooooooooo,,, gotta get KC home....gotta deal with this money issue - AGAIN......CA's really gonna let KC have it this time.....storm seems to been a brewin' .....then KC gets home....FINALLY....

yeah.....that combination of events would set me off too.

Sara Barracuda said:

I thought maybe "The fight" might have been about KC stealing $ from SP or CA's Dad (dunno his name)? IIRC, I remember hearing SP confronting (maybe asking is a better word) CA about KC stealing from one of their accounts or something to that nature. When CA returned from her trip to see her parents on Father's Day w/ Caylee, it is likely that CA called KC to come home so they could talk about it.

Click to expand...

That's what I have always heard and thought the fight was about, but I don't remember why. Did it come from a good source or was it just speculation? Maybe that's how Cindy justifies in her mind saying there was no fight. She knows everyone thinks it was about money and it was really about something completely different.

wow...such dedication to finding the truth. Thank you for taking the time to do that!

I was wondering though. I haven't seen any mention about money. I was always under the impression that the big fight(if there was one) was about money and the checks being used without Cindy's mom giving permission. I forgot where I came up with that but I figured because Cindy had spent the day up in Mt Dora that she had gotton some info that she didn't like and wanted to talk to Casey about it.

has this fight theory been disproven according to your findings?

ETA after I posted I see others thought the same as I did. Thank you....I thought my brain was frying there for a second.

I can only imagine and mentioned in another thread... I believe that Cindy threatened for the last time to obtain custody of Caylee and throw KC's butt out the door. I think (my opinion only) that KC replied in kind telling her mother she'd rather see her daughter dead than Cindy get custody. Thus the choking of KC.

And more than a month later, Cindy spewed out the dead body in the car on 911. She knew her daughter followed through, she knew. Right after the regrettable 911 statement, CA, GA & LA sprung into action that has lead to massive cover up.

my 2cents only people...

People argue differently at different times. Sometimes I see folks who are mad who call, call, call, ad infinitum...and other times the same person doesn't call and takes the "silent treatment" approach...

When it comes to Cindy and Casey, I think they fought a lot, and I think they played little mind games with each other (for starters - don't even get me started on the strangling business.)

Following up on the storm's-a-brewing theory ... I have a feeling that when Cindy and Caylee left for Mt. Dora that morning, Casey had agreed that she'd be home by such-and-such a time, ergo when CIndy arrived home and found no Casey, she called and left a message. Her not calling and calling over and over doesn't really mean anything to me - she's likely gotten used to Casey's habits and could've known that to continue calling wouldn't do any good...or maybe she was now so angry about the $$ issues that she's now beyond what time Casey arrived home and is so angry she's just waiting for Casey to arrive home...

Maybe when Casey called Cindy at 5 p.m. w/o checking her voice mail (*Casey probably assumed Cindy's voice message was only a call to get her butt hoime, which she'd ignored,) but then Casey got a big surprise when she found out that CIndy had moved WAAAY beyond Casey not being home and the focus of the anger was the $$. The 3 minute convo was long enough for Cindy to have started in on Casey...and Cindy may have felt she'd put the fear of God into Casey - she may have hung up on Casey for all we know...

Then Casey calls around 7 p.m. to say she's now on her way, and Cindy says we'll talk when you get here...

Casey arrives home and who knows why they don't get into it upon arrival. I'm assuming they weren't fighting while Casey's busy texting...but I have to say, Casey's ability to disengage when her mother was frantically calling 911 has me wondering if, at times, Casey didn't just sit there while Cindy ranted at her, nod her head, or look away, and text away...

Chezhire said:

People argue differently at different times. Sometimes I see folks who are mad who call, call, call, ad infinitum...and other times the same person doesn't call and takes the "silent treatment" approach...

When it comes to Cindy and Casey, I think they fought a lot, and I think they played little mind games with each other (for starters - don't even get me started on the strangling business.)

Following up on the storm's-a-brewing theory ... I have a feeling that when Cindy and Caylee left for Mt. Dora that morning, Casey had agreed that she'd be home by such-and-such a time, ergo when CIndy arrived home and found no Casey, she called and left a message. Her not calling and calling over and over doesn't really mean anything to me - she's likely gotten used to Casey's habits and could've known that to continue calling wouldn't do any good...or maybe she was now so angry about the $$ issues that she's now beyond what time Casey arrived home and is so angry she's just waiting for Casey to arrive home...

Maybe when Casey called Cindy at 5 p.m. w/o checking her voice mail (*Casey probably assumed Cindy's voice message was only a call to get her butt hoime, which she'd ignored,) but then Casey got a big surprise when she found out that CIndy had moved WAAAY beyond Casey not being home and the focus of the anger was the $$. The 3 minute convo was long enough for Cindy to have started in on Casey...and Cindy may have felt she'd put the fear of God into Casey - she may have hung up on Casey for all we know...

Then Casey calls around 7 p.m. to say she's now on her way, and Cindy says we'll talk when you get here...

Casey arrives home and who knows why they don't get into it upon arrival. I'm assuming they weren't fighting while Casey's busy texting...but I have to say, Casey's ability to disengage when her mother was frantically calling 911 has me wondering if, at times, Casey didn't just sit there while Cindy ranted at her, nod her head, or look away, and text away...

Click to expand...

this makes good sense to me. I have an 18 year old daughter and when I want to speak with her about important things I like to wait until she is in front of me and I can look into her eyes. I can see right through any story she tries to give me. Thank goodness my children never learned how to lie well.

PattyCake said:

I can only imagine and mentioned in another thread... I believe that Cindy threatened for the last time to obtain custody of Caylee and throw KC's butt out the door. I think (my opinion only) that KC replied in kind telling her mother she'd rather see her daughter dead than Cindy get custody. Thus the choking of KC.

And more than a month later, Cindy spewed out the dead body in the car on 911. She knew her daughter followed through, she knew. Right after the regrettable 911 statement, CA, GA & LA sprung into action that has lead to massive cover up.

my 2cents only people...

Click to expand...

I agree. also corroborates KC's statement to LA "...because I'm a spiteful b*tch".

...but WHAT do you think the fight was about?

elle1919 said:

this makes good sense to me. I have an 18 year old daughter and when I want to speak with her about important things I like to wait until she is in front of me and I can look into her eyes. I can see right through any story she tries to give me. Thank goodness my children never learned how to lie well.

Click to expand...

I also thank God I haven't had to deal with a Casey in my life.

Your comments remind me of when Cindy had to say to Casey that she wanted to look in her eyes during the videotaped meeting at the jail...

if anyone has a time line....(i know there is one out there ).....with the 2 computers time and usage, and what they were viewing or visiting, chat, myspace, web site's ect....would be good to put side by side with this time line with the phone calls.......


i know she was pinging at or around the home......but i still think she left the house again......i know the home computer was in use at some point between the 15th-16th....but im not convinced yet it was kc and not someone else......it would help if i knew what or where the computer was visisting.....

does that make since

there has been so much hard work and info that its great when it starts to get so refined!

thank you for starting the thread!

p.s.....i know the info im asking has been covered already .....just some of us have a harder time keeping it all straight....even though we read and read and read.....not all minds are alike......

Dear Prudence said:

That's what I have always heard and thought the fight was about, but I don't remember why. Did it come from a good source or was it just speculation? Maybe that's how Cindy justifies in her mind saying there was no fight. She knows everyone thinks it was about money and it was really about something completely different.

Click to expand...

IMO, watching Cindy's deposition really "sealed the deal" about the veracity of reports regarding this mother vs. daughter fight. Talk about your hot buttons!! That was the ultimate in barely contained rage from her, and very telling IMO........:furious:

ETA: Thanks Bond for your outstanding research!