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  1. #1
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    A view from the fence

    I have followed this case since the day after Madeleine disappeared, and I've followed it as close as I possibly could. I have two children who are exactly the age of Madeleine and the twins, and maybe that is why it grasped my attention more than any other case of child abduction.

    For a long time, I was convinced that Madeleine had an accident while being left alone in the apartment, and that her parents covered it up. Now, two years later, I have climbed the fence again, as I've had a lot of time to think the whole case through.

    If one of the McCanns had discovered that Madeleine is dead, and disposed of her that night, the Tapas 9 must know that the McCanns statements about what they've been doing that night was a lie.

    What made me change my mind is the fact that I just can't believe that all of the Tapas-friends would cover for the McCanns. The McCanns have a lot to lose if it turns out that they've put their children into a position where one of them tragically died. But on the other hand- so have their friends who were with them that evening. I just can't believe that all of the Tapas 9 would cover for the McCanns and possibly risk jail, and losing their children too. None of them could be sure that Madeleine wouldn't be found later, or that the police wouldn't be able to prove she died in the apartment. To me it looks as the Tapas 9 had even more to lose by lying than the McCanns. It's not as if they all had several days to think this through, and to make sure they've all had a plausible story and timeline to stick to. They' would have had few hours only, and I believe most of these hours would have been very chaotic.

    It also seems strange that none of them has ever come forward with their knowledge and that all of them have kept their secrets without ever spilling anything.

    I find it also unlikely that someone would be able to dispose of a body in a country they don't know, without it being found later.

    That's my 2cents, pardon my poor English. I hope to see your view of my aspect.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maryam View Post
    I have followed this case since the day after Madeleine disappeared, and I've followed it as close as I possibly could. I have two children who are exactly the age of Madeleine and the twins, and maybe that is why it grasped my attention more than any other case of child abduction.

    For a long time, I was convinced that Madeleine had an accident while being left alone in the apartment, and that her parents covered it up. Now, two years later, I have climbed the fence again, as I've had a lot of time to think the whole case through.

    If one of the McCanns had discovered that Madeleine is dead, and disposed of her that night, the Tapas 9 must know that the McCanns statements about what they've been doing that night was a lie.

    What made me change my mind is the fact that I just can't believe that all of the Tapas-friends would cover for the McCanns. The McCanns have a lot to lose if it turns out that they've put their children into a position where one of them tragically died. But on the other hand- so have their friends who were with them that evening. I just can't believe that all of the Tapas 9 would cover for the McCanns and possibly risk jail, and losing their children too. None of them could be sure that Madeleine wouldn't be found later, or that the police wouldn't be able to prove she died in the apartment. To me it looks as the Tapas 9 had even more to lose by lying than the McCanns. It's not as if they all had several days to think this through, and to make sure they've all had a plausible story and timeline to stick to. They' would have had few hours only, and I believe most of these hours would have been very chaotic.

    It also seems strange that none of them has ever come forward with their knowledge and that all of them have kept their secrets without ever spilling anything.

    I find it also unlikely that someone would be able to dispose of a body in a country they don't know, without it being found later.

    That's my 2cents, pardon my poor English. I hope to see your view of my aspect.

    I am not sure all the tapas gang DID know about it. I do think possibly David Payne did..and i also think that OBrien and Tanner did. I dont believe Fionas mother knew..and i dont think the Oldfields did - indeed i think Oldfield was originally meant to been the one to find Madeleine missing but of course he didnt actually go into view her as he should have done.

    And also if she died..it would depend WHEN...i understand there are some doubts about the creche records..and if thats true...who knows when she was last seen? Possibly when Mrs Fenn heard her crying for all that time That would in fact have given them quite a bit more time to plan it.

    As for why would the friends risk it..to be honest it would depend on how she died...say something was found that could get them in trouble..then yes i can see why they would risk it.

    Btw the bit about not being able to hide a body and it not being found...in a country like Portugal..within a frw weeks she would just have been bones...and not many of them so not exactly easy to find ;(
    LEE: When I say I know my sister, I can
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    I don't believe all of the Tapas diners were involved. In fact, I think that several were left out for that very reason--need to know.

    One possible explanation for the others being willing to go along is if they knew that the McCanns had given the children some kind of sedative--or if one of them had given any of the children a sedative. If they had knowledge of what the McCanns were doing, they were also in a position to lose their jobs in any kind of bad publicity or even criminal charges.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Texana View Post
    I don't believe all of the Tapas diners were involved. In fact, I think that several were left out for that very reason--need to know.

    One possible explanation for the others being willing to go along is if they knew that the McCanns had given the children some kind of sedative--or if one of them had given any of the children a sedative. If they had knowledge of what the McCanns were doing, they were also in a position to lose their jobs in any kind of bad publicity or even criminal charges.
    Tex do you remember which of the Drs it was that Gerry was helping with a malpractice suit or something? That could be a reason for them to help Gerry if they thought he was helping to save their career.
    LEE: When I say I know my sister, I can
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    like my sister as far as how we would react.


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  5. #5
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    april4sky is offline It is not who is right, but what is right, that is of importance
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maryam View Post
    I have followed this case since the day after Madeleine disappeared, and I've followed it as close as I possibly could. I have two children who are exactly the age of Madeleine and the twins, and maybe that is why it grasped my attention more than any other case of child abduction.

    For a long time, I was convinced that Madeleine had an accident while being left alone in the apartment, and that her parents covered it up. Now, two years later, I have climbed the fence again, as I've had a lot of time to think the whole case through.

    If one of the McCanns had discovered that Madeleine is dead, and disposed of her that night, the Tapas 9 must know that the McCanns statements about what they've been doing that night was a lie.

    What made me change my mind is the fact that I just can't believe that all of the Tapas-friends would cover for the McCanns. The McCanns have a lot to lose if it turns out that they've put their children into a position where one of them tragically died. But on the other hand- so have their friends who were with them that evening. I just can't believe that all of the Tapas 9 would cover for the McCanns and possibly risk jail, and losing their children too. None of them could be sure that Madeleine wouldn't be found later, or that the police wouldn't be able to prove she died in the apartment. To me it looks as the Tapas 9 had even more to lose by lying than the McCanns. It's not as if they all had several days to think this through, and to make sure they've all had a plausible story and timeline to stick to. They' would have had few hours only, and I believe most of these hours would have been very chaotic.

    It also seems strange that none of them has ever come forward with their knowledge and that all of them have kept their secrets without ever spilling anything.

    I find it also unlikely that someone would be able to dispose of a body in a country they don't know, without it being found later.

    That's my 2cents, pardon my poor English. I hope to see your view of my aspect.
    Great post Maryam and your English is excellent.

    IMO when you strip away all the misinformation and smears against the McCanns it's very clear they didn't do anything other that what they themselves told the PJ from day one.

    And it's not just their friends who have been accused of covering for the McCanns but almost everyone who has come in contact with and supports them - this has made the conspricy theories sound ever more ridiculous by the day.

    .....Madeleine McCann.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by april4sky View Post
    Great post Maryam and your English is excellent.

    IMO when you strip away all the misinformation and smears against the McCanns it's very clear they didn't do anything other that what they themselves told the PJ from day one.

    And it's not just their friends who have been accused of covering for the McCanns but almost everyone who has come in contact with and supports them - this has made the conspricy theories sound ever more ridiculous by the day.
    Of course it could be said by a lot of people..when you read all the statements and the differing versions...nothing the McCanns and there friends say make a scrap of sense and therefore isnt likely to be true.

    Btw what the McCanns said on day one is different to what they said later on...so go and figure.

    Personally..i find it ridiculous...that with everything that comes out that some people still believe the McCanns version...and i find it totally incomprehensible that anyone could believe Tanner with her many many versions.

    What i find even stranger..that these 2 ex cops that are now searching on behalf of the McCanns are saying hey we looked through the files and another witness is backing up Tanners version and say the clothes were the same - well duh....its not new about the Smith family..just that the McCanns only wanted to go by Tanners version...IMO cause Smith thinks it was probably Gerry he saw that night...
    LEE: When I say I know my sister, I can
    say that because I know how I would react. I'm a lot
    like my sister as far as how we would react.


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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isabella View Post
    I am not sure all the tapas gang DID know about it. I do think possibly David Payne did..and i also think that OBrien and Tanner did. I dont believe Fionas mother knew..and i dont think the Oldfields did - indeed i think Oldfield was originally meant to been the one to find Madeleine missing but of course he didnt actually go into view her as he should have done.
    I have never believed that the McCanns have had any plans to murder Madeleine. The only scenario I ever believed in was of there being an accident, most likely when the McCanns were out dining.

    This must have come as a huge shock to them. I'm sure they would have been shocked, terrified, scared and grieving for their daughter. I don't think they would have been able to keep the cool and act just as nothing had happened.

    I know that they are doctors, and much more used to controlling their emotion than "regular folks", but they aren't robots. And their friends know them well enough to know when they're not acting normally. None of them have reported any change in the McCanns behaviour. Neither have other people who've talked to them this evening.



    Quote Originally Posted by Isabella

    And also if she died..it would depend WHEN...i understand there are some doubts about the creche records..and if thats true...who knows when she was last seen? Possibly when Mrs Fenn heard her crying for all that time That would in fact have given them quite a bit more time to plan it.
    There is no proof for any of this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Isabella
    As for why would the friends risk it..to be honest it would depend on how she died...say something was found that could get them in trouble..then yes i can see why they would risk it.
    Any normal person (and these people were highly educated, probably knowing quite a bit about law too) would understand that there is a HUGE difference in punishment for leaving your kinds unattended (sedated) and covering up for murder or giving wrong information to the police. These two things are not even comparable. One thing gets you in quite some trouble, the other thing would mean that all hell breaks loose if it would ever get public. If they were afraid of losing their children, they would know that they're in much greater risk of losing them if they help the McCanns.

    Remember: There was no guarantee whatsoever that the McCanns wouldn't break down and confess, or that the body wouldn't be found.

    Quote Originally Posted by Isabella

    Btw the bit about not being able to hide a body and it not being found...in a country like Portugal..within a frw weeks she would just have been bones...and not many of them so not exactly easy to find ;(
    I don't say it's impossible, I just think it's difficult. It's not just like you could throw it anywhere you want just because it's in Portugal. I've been there myself, and there is cars, traffic, tourist renting cars to watch the landscape and scenery, and so on.

    Last but not least:

    One thing I've always found funny about the whole crime was that noone knowing the McCanns personally have stepped forward and talked negatively about them. I find this highly unusual. The McCanns had a very large circle of acquaintances and a lot of people know who they are. The children went to kindergarten and probably to kids birthday parties and other activities. Yet no one, not friends, ex-patients or loose acquaintances have had anything negative to say about their parenting or other issues concerning their personalities. Obviously, they've never had any reputation as cold, controlling, ill-tempered people.

    In many other cases (ex. the JonBenet Ramsey case) friends collegues and even family turn their back on the parents and often turn to the press and the media, talking about what they believe happened. I find that very interesting.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maryam View Post
    I have never believed that the McCanns have had any plans to murder Madeleine. The only scenario I ever believed in was of there being an accident, most likely when the McCanns were out dining.

    I believe there was a accident OR something happened while Payne was there.

    This must have come as a huge shock to them. I'm sure they would have been shocked, terrified, scared and grieving for their daughter. I don't think they would have been able to keep the cool and act just as nothing had happened.

    However..people have killed family members and acted as if nothing have happened so in this case where they dont think they did anything wrong..im sure they would be able to do just that.
    I know that they are doctors, and much more used to controlling their emotion than "regular folks", but they aren't robots. And their friends know them well enough to know when they're not acting normally. None of them have reported any change in the McCanns behaviour. Neither have other people who've talked to them this evening.

    There friend the honourable David Payne said at the beginning they had made a pact of silence..and everyone had to go through Gerry so why would they be talking to the police of any changes in the McCanns behaviour. Not only that im not sure some of these people even knew the McCanns that well.




    There is no proof for any of this.

    Yes there is proof Madeleine cried for her parents for a couple of hours while her parents were out drinking. Even Kate admitted this AFTER it was in the media. Yes there is debate about the creche records and if there genuine...and im sure IF the case is reopened that these records will be relooked at.


    Any normal person (and these people were highly educated, probably knowing quite a bit about law too) would understand that there is a HUGE difference in punishment for leaving your kinds unattended (sedated) and covering up for murder or giving wrong information to the police. These two things are not even comparable. One thing gets you in quite some trouble, the other thing would mean that all hell breaks loose if it would ever get public. If they were afraid of losing their children, they would know that they're in much greater risk of losing them if they help the McCanns.

    Remember: There was no guarantee whatsoever that the McCanns wouldn't break down and confess, or that the body wouldn't be found.


    You are quite correct in there was no guarentee that people wouldnt break down. Reportedly two members of the gang...wanted to change there statements. However unfortunately this was leaked to the media....and Mitchell immediately summoned all the friends to a hotel in Rothley...and the statement wasnt then changed.



    As for covering for the McCanns with all respects it depends on how she died. They have there own children, careers and freedom to think about..and one was already in trouble with authorities regarding his work.
    I don't say it's impossible, I just think it's difficult. It's not just like you could throw it anywhere you want just because it's in Portugal. I've been there myself, and there is cars, traffic, tourist renting cars to watch the landscape and scenery, and so on.

    PDL isnt Chicago or New York. Its relatively quiet ESPECIALLY in the early season. Deserted almost. And..Smith claims he saw Gerry down on the beach with Madeleine. Gerry and Payne supposedly were down the beach in the middle of the night...IMO it wasnt so hard as you might imagine.
    Last but not least:

    One thing I've always found funny about the whole crime was that noone knowing the McCanns personally have stepped forward and talked negatively about them. I find this highly unusual. The McCanns had a very large circle of acquaintances and a lot of people know who they are. The children went to kindergarten and probably to kids birthday parties and other activities. Yet no one, not friends, ex-patients or loose acquaintances have had anything negative to say about their parenting or other issues concerning their personalities. Obviously, they've never had any reputation as cold, controlling, ill-tempered people.


    How do you know no one went to the media about the McCanns? And just where was anyone who thought the McCanns were bad people going to go to put out their stories? Not the Uk media no way..it simply would NOT have been published. America has freedom of speech - We DONT. We DO know friends of the McCanns made allegations about Gerry and Payne to the pjs though.
    In many other cases (ex. the JonBenet Ramsey case) friends collegues and even family turn their back on the parents and often turn to the press and the media, talking about what they believe happened. I find that very interesting.

    Different country different rules. Mitchell would jus t threaten to publish the papers who printed anything like he is threatening to sue any channel that publishes Amarals documentary .. which is funny cos..if they have nothing to be scared of why do it?
    I dont know how to do the multi quote thing sorry
    LEE: When I say I know my sister, I can
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    like my sister as far as how we would react.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Texana View Post
    I don't believe all of the Tapas diners were involved. In fact, I think that several were left out for that very reason--need to know.

    One possible explanation for the others being willing to go along is if they knew that the McCanns had given the children some kind of sedative--or if one of them had given any of the children a sedative. If they had knowledge of what the McCanns were doing, they were also in a position to lose their jobs in any kind of bad publicity or even criminal charges.
    How true Texana.

    Maryam, thanks for your OP. The exception could be great enough to where it could reflect on many of them and ruin their future lives if it became known. Some things done in England are very casual. Other things are done in an absolutely prim and proper manner. A unique combo.

    * I think all except the Payne's sedated their children on that holiday.
    * I think Madeleine's body, if autopsied, might show signs of continual sexual abuse and overly stern discipline.

    A possible abuser in the group, they were said to be 'very close' and so into each other that these friendships were above and beyond the normal everyday scenario of friendship. The men always walked together, the women separately. I have felt for a long time there was something a bit more than kinky behind that whole vacation, a resort that offered child-free areas, the professional seductive photos taken of Madeleine, etc plus everything else we learned in the case that applies!

    It could be what several said in the very beginning, that when the truth comes out we will fall over in disbelief!


    I hope this doesn't upset anyone, for if it does I'll delete it. I think it could be an answer to your OP Maryam. IMO xox

  10. #10
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    april4sky is offline It is not who is right, but what is right, that is of importance
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isabella View Post
    Of course it could be said by a lot of people..when you read all the statements and the differing versions...nothing the McCanns and there friends say make a scrap of sense and therefore isnt likely to be true.

    Btw what the McCanns said on day one is different to what they said later on...so go and figure.
    Not true Isabella.

    Personally..i find it ridiculous...that with everything that comes out that some people still believe the McCanns version...and i find it totally incomprehensible that anyone could believe Tanner with her many many versions.
    It's not incomprehensible if you don't buy into smears.
    What i find even stranger..that these 2 ex cops that are now searching on behalf of the McCanns are saying hey we looked through the files and another witness is backing up Tanners version and say the clothes were the same - well duh....its not new about the Smith family..just that the McCanns only wanted to go by Tanners version...IMO cause Smith thinks it was probably Gerry he saw that night...
    They may be ex-cops but they are not disgraced ex-cops like Amaral.

    .....Madeleine McCann.....


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    Quote Originally Posted by april4sky View Post
    Not true Isabella.

    Yes IMO it is true...
    It's not incomprehensible if you don't buy into smears.

    Really? So if we dont believe the McCanns stories there smears? So not only do we not have freedom of speech we shouldnt have freedom of opinion? Especially on subjects where a little girl was neglected so her parents could go out drinking nightly for a week and is now presumed to missing and her parents were the last people to see her. I personally do not see this as smears..but..how about the smears by the McCanns and there friends and there supporters? Is this somehow diferent? I wonder whether Robert Murat would agree to that.
    They may be ex-cops but they are not disgraced ex-cops like Amaral.
    Your post is a prime example of what i meant. Over and over again you have smeared Amaral with absolutely no basis. Because the British Press say that does not make it so. The fact is he was removed from the case for quite rightly complaining about Leicestershire police in this case. He then asked to retire so he could get out what HE believed happened as he was then not bound by secrecy as he had left the police. Even AFTER retiring from the PJ he was in fact STILL involved with the case..while the British press were callling him disgraced. Fancy that huh lol. Obviously his ex employers..the people who had paid his wages for almost 30 years do not hold your opinion. Nor do most of Portugal who firmly believe the McCanns to be guilty. And indeed nor do a great deal of other people find him to be disgraced Just those few supporters who back the McCanns do in fact.

    Funny thing about the people who criticise Amaral. They say hes dfisgraced etc and yet...the people who can shut him up decide not to. We hear mad blusterings from Mitchell regarding the book " our lawyers will be reading the book very closely and ifs its libel we will sue". Hmm...so why didnt they? Are we to infer from Mitchells words then that the boo k is true? Following on from THAT..Amaral is saying some very potentially libellous and damaging things about Payne...again..hes quick enough to sue the Express but...Amaral and all the paedophile allegations..hes not. Weird. At the weekend Amaral said that Tanners sighting is hogwash and that he can prove it..and if she doesnt like being called a liar...she can sue him and he will prove he knows why its a lie...how many want to bet she will never sue him? And then theres the McCanns themelves. All the time while Amaral is making these allegations about the party...across the world no less..NONE of them dare face up to him. And now we have Mitchell saying if any British tv station show Amarals documentary he will sue them...which is funny when the McCanns have already been told once they should go through the press complaints commitee and not sue people. Incidentally after Amarals documentary they changed THEIR documentary lol..why if they was telling the truth to start with?

    Sorry but Amaral is running right across the Tapas gang..and IF there innocent as they claim..they should be trying to shut him up..which they wont do as they then have to go in a court room with him.

    I wonder just what it there so afraid Amaral will come out with in court that there willing to keep having all the crap said about them.
    LEE: When I say I know my sister, I can
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    like my sister as far as how we would react.


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    Quote Originally Posted by scandi View Post
    How true Texana.

    Maryam, thanks for your OP. The exception could be great enough to where it could reflect on many of them and ruin their future lives if it became known. Some things done in England are very casual. Other things are done in an absolutely prim and proper manner. A unique combo.

    * I think all except the Payne's sedated their children on that holiday.
    * I think Madeleine's body, if autopsied, might show signs of continual sexual abuse and overly stern discipline.

    A possible abuser in the group, they were said to be 'very close' and so into each other that these friendships were above and beyond the normal everyday scenario of friendship. The men always walked together, the women separately. I have felt for a long time there was something a bit more than kinky behind that whole vacation, a resort that offered child-free areas, the professional seductive photos taken of Madeleine, etc plus everything else we learned in the case that applies!

    It could be what several said in the very beginning, that when the truth comes out we will fall over in disbelief!


    I hope this doesn't upset anyone, for if it does I'll delete it. I think it could be an answer to your OP Maryam. IMO xox

    Why would you delete it? Your only stating things that have come about this case. A cop close to the case at the beginning of this ( and not Amaral) claimed the McCanns and there friends were swingers. I also saw a profile on a site (someone linked to on a another site and no not 3a) that could well have been the McCanns and that was for that kind of thing.

    I read at the weekend..that whatever these people were doing at the time of the "disappearance" is supposedly the reason none of the friends are saying what happened which to me could be a couple of things really..or both even i guess.
    LEE: When I say I know my sister, I can
    say that because I know how I would react. I'm a lot
    like my sister as far as how we would react.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Isabella View Post
    Why would you delete it? Your only stating things that have come about this case. A cop close to the case at the beginning of this ( and not Amaral) claimed the McCanns and there friends were swingers. I also saw a profile on a site (someone linked to on a another site and no not 3a) that could well have been the McCanns and that was for that kind of thing.

    I read at the weekend..that whatever these people were doing at the time of the "disappearance" is supposedly the reason none of the friends are saying what happened which to me could be a couple of things really..or both even i guess.
    Hi Isabella, The offer to delete was made because on this forum it seems posters are mostly at either end of the pole and they don't often meet in the middle to center on Madeleine. I want a productive discussion but also to put out my thoughts, based on like you say, all the info we have gleaned so far in the case.

    For instance I have often thought if Madeleine were to reappear, would she be replaced with her natal family or even want to be with her parents after being so neglected as to have her fall into harms way. Of course she would as she is only 6 now, but if she were older I don't think she would.

    I so agree with your last statement Isabella. Yesterday I read a post at 3A's from a brand newbie, and he said there is nothing important here on this thread. Go back to the scene of the crime and you will uncover the truth.

    Such wise words IMO, and it is how most COLD CASES are solved. What was happening at the time she disappeared is at the crux of the case IMO.


    XOX

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    Hi Maryam. I am the reverse of you. I started out thinking that Madeleine had been kidnapped and her parents were innocent. But the more I listened to people talk about this case, the more I read and I had to change my mind. I don't know if she had an accident and died or if her parents drugged her and caused her to pass out and hit her head. I am convinced the McCanns know what happened to their little girl and some of their friends know too.
    If I don't link it, it's only my opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rmmbr_Cara View Post
    Hi Maryam. I am the reverse of you. I started out thinking that Madeleine had been kidnapped and her parents were innocent. But the more I listened to people talk about this case, the more I read and I had to change my mind. I don't know if she had an accident and died or if her parents drugged her and caused her to pass out and hit her head. I am convinced the McCanns know what happened to their little girl and some of their friends know too.

    I am in the same boat...i too thought she had been kidnapped and was in fact asked if i was a paid poster for the McCanns ( that seems funny now lol) but...when i realised there was other ways of getting info on the case other than from the British media..and saw the excellent video by Spudgun i soon changed my mind.
    LEE: When I say I know my sister, I can
    say that because I know how I would react. I'm a lot
    like my sister as far as how we would react.


    John Morgan: I can tell.

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