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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    Newspapers reported the boy's story and even used his real name within a day or two of the earliest reports, stating that he claimed to have seen the girls going toward the mall and that the time was around "7:30".

    Police very likely interviewed the boy, but possibly AFTER the news reporter spoke with him. I say this because the police never released ANY names of minors in any of their press conferences/releases. Police did say in a press conference on the 27th or 28th of March 1975, that they did not think the sighting was accurate because of the "7:30" time not fitting with other bits of information.

    A later interview of the boy by a Washington Star reporter provided more information about the boy and what he had been doing that morning (playing basketball with a friend) and that he was jogging or running to the mall when he passed the girls and looked back at them. He also indicated that he knew the girls personally from previous sightings or contact.

    That Star interview, however did not quote him as to what time he saw the girls on 25 March.

    One problem is that on 25 March 1975, it would have been dark for about an hour by 7:30PM - an odd time for any kid to have been out playing basketball or jogging to the mall.

    It is possible that a 12 year-old does not know how to tell (or estimate) time very well. It is also possible that the boy could have said "'leven thirty" and was understood to have said "seven thirty".

    The boy (or someone claiming to be him) posted his memories of the girls and his sighting on another website. He did NOT, however, state what time his sighting took place.

    That said, you are right that it is also possible that the boy was telling the truth about seeing the girls and about the time. If so, that would mean that they had disappeared for about four hours, reappeared and then disappeared again.

    I personally feel that the boy did see them, but that the time was mistated or misquoted.
    It was the first day of spring break, and so normal routines would maybe not have been followed. He probably was out shooting hoops that evening...moo

    I find his story especially compelling because he actually knew the sisters from school... I also think he would have said in later years that he was mistaken about seeing them in the evening...but he never has..moo
    Maybe the timeline is wrong somehow ? jmo

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Motherof5 View Post
    ....

    ... If TRM was trying to blend in with his choice of clothing and such....why the tape recorder and briefcase? Why the suit? That's all very "reporterish" as "Jimmy" and friend have stated. He didn't blend in. He probably only approached the girls that day because approaching other kids would have meant witnesses could identify him?..... I don't believe the TRM/Jimmy story but you know that.


    He could try again the next day and the day after if the abduction attempt failed because...after all.....the girls lived in that neighborhood? I agree with you here...but for a different reason. How would a random perp... who was sitting in his car at the mall watching for kids to enter....know which house exactly the girls came from? How would he know that they "lived" near the mall? Because they were on foot? They could have come from anywhere and been dropped off near the mall by a parent. They could have been visiting a family member or friend who lived near by....I don't think a tricky plan or ruse was needed here at all. I think they were taken by someone who knew them. It was spring break...lots of kids going to the mall and someone that knew them and the fact that they went to the mall often....without their parents....could safely assume they'd head up there like all the other kids did that day. He simply shows up at the...runs into them or not....but once he knows they are there...he simply waits for them to walk home....offers them a ride...no elaborate plan needed....no struggle takes place. They would have gone quickly and quietly with someone they knew and trusted.
    Good comments. In reply to your first paragraph, TRM might or might not have been the abductor but his actions certainly are suspect and they would fit in perfectly with the scenario/theory I posted earlier.

    My comments about the abductor's choice of clothing are my own impressions of what I think was his state of mind - and I was referring only to his clothing, not to any props or carried objects. I feel that he was a serial offender and that he took on a certain "persona" by dressing for his "hunt" in clothing that he may not have worn on other days, such as for his job, or other activities. For example, he may have worn jeans and plaid shirts at work, but may have chosen nice slacks and a jacket or sweater - or even a suit, when looking for victims or engaging in his pedophile activities.

    I do not feel that he would have worn a Hawaiian shirt or a cowboy hat, or a unique fur coat, biker leather, or a police uniform - or anything which would attract almost anyone's attention and which might cause them to remember him, or even approach and interact with him.

    As a pedophile on the hunt, he would want to interact with a targeted child, but on his own terms. He would not want an adult to approach and speak to him.

    In response to your second paragraph; All of what you say as to possibilities are indeed possible. However, having been to Wheaton Plaza and having seen the Kensington residential area, it is my impression that a person sitting in the mall parking lot and watching the choke point mentioned could come to some reasonable conclusions regarding children that he sees.

    There are a number of variables which could have taken place that day. The abductor may have done a number of different things that day. He may have entered the mall or not. He may have known the girls intimately, may have only interacted with them briefly, or may have simply observed and targeted them. To use a jazz music term, I think that he knew the theme in advance and simply "played it by ear", changing his plan on the fly as necessary.

  3. #18
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    Spring Break Schedule...

    Quote Originally Posted by liz b. View Post
    It was the first day of spring break, and so normal routines would maybe not have been followed. He probably was out shooting hoops that evening...moo

    I find his story especially compelling because he actually knew the sisters from school... I also think he would have said in later years that he was mistaken about seeing them in the evening...but he never has..moo
    Maybe the timeline is wrong somehow ? jmo
    Actually, March 25th was a Tuesday, so Spring Break had started when school let out the previous Friday. Monday was a rainy day, but Tuesday was clear, sunny and warm.

    Probably a nice day for basketball, jogging, mall shopping, etc.

    I do not know what the 12 year old boy's full schedule was on that day. You might be correct about him shooting hoops in the evening, but by 7:30PM, it would have been dark for an hour. Why would he have been jogging to the mall in the dark? And why had he not been home for supper? My first question would be whether or not he had a watch and knew how to tell time.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    Actually, March 25th was a Tuesday, so Spring Break had started when school let out the previous Friday. Monday was a rainy day, but Tuesday was clear, sunny and warm.

    Probably a nice day for basketball, jogging, mall shopping, etc.

    I do not know what the 12 year old boy's full schedule was on that day. You might be correct about him shooting hoops in the evening, but by 7:30PM, it would have been dark for an hour. Why would he have been jogging to the mall in the dark? And why had he not been home for supper? My first question would be whether or not he had a watch and knew how to tell time.
    i have never come across a 12 year old who could not tell time ? unless the child had some kind of developmental delays, and i don't think that was the case... also, by 7:30 dinner is usually over in a lot of homes. that is often free time for kids..moo jogging to the mall in the dark at 7:30pm ? a 12 year old with energy to burn,would be my guess...

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by liz b. View Post
    i have never come across a 12 year old who could not tell time ? ......
    I have met quite a few kids who are older than 12 and who are clueless as to telling time - or being on time.

    In this case, however, I still think that it was more likely a misstatement by the boy, or a misunderstanding by the reporter as to the actual time his encounter with the girls took place.

    Another possibility could be that questions could have been confusing. For instance, the boy MIGHT have said some thing like, "I got up, ate breakfast, went to my friend's house, played basketball, and jogged to the mall, passing the girls on the way." If asked what time that was, he might have said "7:30" in response, because that was when the sequence started (at 7:30AM).

    Here is how the Washington Star reported the encounter:

    Quote: Only one person has reported seeing the girls later that day. At 7:30 that night, David, 12, a seventh grader at Sheila's school, said he saw the two sisters walking in the opposite direction of their home near the intersection of Drumm and Faulkner headed toward the plaza. "I was coming from a friend's house from playing basketball," said David, "I passed them (on the sidewalk) and then I looked back. Why? They're girls." David said he had seen both girls before up at the community swimming pool and had seen Sheila at school. Unquote


    Regardless of what was said, in the end, the police ignored the boy's information.
    Last edited by Richard; 02-22-2012 at 01:46 AM. Reason: added quote

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    I have met quite a few kids who are older than 12 and who are clueless as to telling time - or being on time.

    In this case, however, I still think that it was more likely a misstatement by the boy, or a misunderstanding by the reporter as to the actual time his encounter with the girls took place.

    Another possibility could be that questions could have been confusing. For instance, the boy MIGHT have said some thing like, "I got up, ate breakfast, went to my friend's house, played basketball, and jogged to the mall, passing the girls on the way." If asked what time that was, he might have said "7:30" in response, because that was when the sequence started (at 7:30AM).

    Regardless of what was said, in the end, the police ignored the boy's information.
    A 12 year old can tell night from day...MOO

  7. #22
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    David would be at the top of my list of persons to interview regarding what he saw and when he saw the girls. The story of him seeing them at 7:30 PM is so far out of sequence from what others have reported seeing that it just does not fit.

    Other sightings of the girls that day were corroborated by a second eyewitness who either saw them at the same time, or in the same vicinity within a small time interval. David's story (as stated in the Washington Star article) stands alone and is much later than all other sightings of the girls. In fact, by the time this article appeard, MCP had already expressed doubt about the sighting report in a press briefing.

    If we accept the 7:30 PM sighting as absolutely correct and accurate, we are stuck with trying to determine where the girls were from between 2:30/3 PM and 7:30 PM. A period of between 4 and a half and 5 hours.

    By all accounts, they did not make it home at the agreed upon time. They did not visit their neighbors the Gangas family (whom Kate had promised to call) and they did not visit the lady with the new baby (whom Kate had promised to visit that afternoon). Three missed appointments.

    IF David actually saw the girls after dark around 7:30 PM headed TOWARD the Mall, one would have to conclude that they had been held for several hours in Kensington in the vicinity of Drumm, Devin, and Faulkner roads, managed to escape, and were again caught before reaching the safety of the Mall, only to go missing again. While this scenario is possible, it is highly unlikely.

    But as unlikely as it may be, it is something which should be investigated and resolved.
    Last edited by Richard; 02-22-2012 at 11:09 AM. Reason: spelling

  8. #23
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    Richard....

    I agree to a point....but this is what I don't understand.

    I do not feel that he would have worn a Hawaiian shirt or a cowboy hat, or a unique fur coat, biker leather, or a police uniform - or anything which would attract almost anyone's attention and which might cause them to remember him, or even approach and interact with him.

    As a pedophile on the hunt, he would want to interact with a targeted child, but on his own terms. He would not want an adult to approach and speak to him.

    He was in a suit...carrying a briefcase......holding a microphone between 2 young girls and asking them questions. That screams...."hey...look at me!!! I'm a reporter and interviewing these girls." It wasn't a "blend in" outfit and his behavior made people, like Jimmy and friend...as well as the others you've mentioned from different malls....remember him. I think people saw TRM....but not that day....and if he thought that he blended...he was confused.

    To use a jazz music term, I think that he knew the theme in advance and simply "played it by ear", changing his plan on the fly as necessary.

    I couldn't agree more.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    David would be at the top of my list of persons to interview regarding what he saw and when he saw the girls. The story of him seeing them at 7:30 PM is so far out of sequence from what others have reported seeing that it just does not fit.

    Other sightings of the girls that day were corroborated by a second eyewitness who either saw them at the same time, or in the same vicinity within a small time interval. David's story (as stated in the Washington Star article) stands alone and is much later than all other sightings of the girls. In fact, by the time this article appeard, MCP had already expressed doubt about the sighting report in a press briefing.

    If we accept the 7:30 PM sighting as absolutely correct and accurate, we are stuck with trying to determine where the girls were from between 2:30/3 PM and 7:30 PM. A period of between 4 and a half and 5 hours.

    By all accounts, they did not make it home at the agreed upon time. They did not visit their neighbors the Gangas family (whom Kate had promised to call) and they did not visit the lady with the new baby (whom Kate had promised to visit that afternoon). Three missed appointments.

    IF David actually saw the girls after dark around 7:30 PM headed TOWARD the Mall, one would have to conclude that they had been held for several hours in Kensington in the vicinity of Drumm, Devin, and Faulkner roads, managed to escape, and were again caught before reaching the safety of the Mall, only to go missing again. While this scenario is possible, it is highly unlikely.

    But as unlikely as it may be, it is something which should be investigated and resolved.
    Not so much that they had been held captive for those missing hours...they were young girls, on spring break. I believe that they may well have gone someplace in the neighborhood. Maybe to an unamed friend's house,and that friend has never come forward.After all, the "old man " was silent for 30 years about seeing the girls that afternoon...actually, given the age of the two girls, they may well have been interested in boys. Or one of them may have been interested in a specific boy...

    If they did head back to the mall after dark, I believe that is when things went wrong for them...MOO Could well have accepted a ride from someone they knew. MOO

  10. #25
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    My theory...

    Quote Originally Posted by Motherof5 View Post
    Richard....

    I agree to a point....but this is what I don't understand.

    I do not feel that he would have worn a Hawaiian shirt or a cowboy hat, or a unique fur coat, biker leather, or a police uniform - or anything which would attract almost anyone's attention and which might cause them to remember him, or even approach and interact with him.

    As a pedophile on the hunt, he would want to interact with a targeted child, but on his own terms. He would not want an adult to approach and speak to him.

    He was in a suit...carrying a briefcase......holding a microphone between 2 young girls and asking them questions. That screams...."hey...look at me!!! I'm a reporter and interviewing these girls." It wasn't a "blend in" outfit and his behavior made people, like Jimmy and friend...as well as the others you've mentioned from different malls....remember him. I think people saw TRM....but not that day....and if he thought that he blended...he was confused.....


    You are describing the Tape Recorder Man (TRM). While what you say is accurate, I would like to stress that the theory I presented (and to which you refer) was NOT based on the Tape Recorder Man or any other specific suspect.

    I only mentioned TRM in passing to indicate that his ACTIONS might fit the profile in one small part of my scenario - that being the possiblility that the abductor might attempt a casual contact with the victims prior to the abduction.

    In developing and stating my theory, I tried to stress the What, Where, When, and How of the problem, leaving out the Who and Why. The Why is implied: I feel that the perpetrator was a pedophile and abducting children is "what he does". The Who question is open for discussion.

    Although I view TRM's actions that day as very suspicious, and consider him to be a potential suspect, I have listed many more potential suspects in other threads of this topic. Any one of them might fit into the scenario I presented on this thread. And, while any of the named potential suspects might have been the TRM, I have always listed the unknown TRM as a separate suspect and have NOT linked him to any named individuals in my writings on the subject.

    On the subject of clothing, I stated my opinion that the perpetrator of this crime was a serial offender, and that he separated his criminal activities from his day-to-day occupation and routine by dressing differently when hunting victims than he would dress at other times.

    He may have been doing this as a disguise, but more likely was "dressing up" for what he considered a special occasion. He may have considered himself "taking on a persona" like an actor does.

    The abductor would not have wanted to attact attention to himself. He would not want to cause someone to notice , watch, or remember him.

    I never said that he was dressing to "blend in". Although that is certainly a possibility. A person like the abductor is - by his very nature - different from most other people, a fact which MIGHT show in his usual choice of clothing. Also, he might have a job requiring a specific type of clothing that would make him stand out at the mall. In those cases, he might choose an outfit which HE THINKS "blends in".


  11. #26
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    Later in the evening scenario...

    Quote Originally Posted by liz b. View Post
    Not so much that they had been held captive for those missing hours...they were young girls, on spring break. I believe that they may well have gone someplace in the neighborhood. Maybe to an unamed friend's house,and that friend has never come forward.After all, the "old man " was silent for 30 years about seeing the girls that afternoon...actually, given the age of the two girls, they may well have been interested in boys. Or one of them may have been interested in a specific boy...

    If they did head back to the mall after dark, I believe that is when things went wrong for them...MOO Could well have accepted a ride from someone they knew. MOO
    True, the girls might have been visiting someone else in the neighbor for 4.5 to 5 hours, but isn't it more likely that they would have been heading home rather than back to the mall at 7:30 PM?

    Most accounts of the girls were that they were reliable and punctual when it came to returning home by supper time.

    Also, by 7:30 PM, John Lyon was driving around the neighborhood roads looking for the girls, and by 8PM, the police and parents were calling all of their friends and neighbors to see if anyone had seen them.

    In the days and weeks that followed, police went door to door asking questions. If someone in the neighborhood had seen or been with them that afternoon, it was not simply a case of them not coming forward, they would have had to lie to police about NOT seeing them.

    The girls had three potential destinations when headed home that afternoon around 3PM:

    1. Home, as that was the time they intended to arrive.
    2. The home of their neighbors, the Ganas family, as Kate had spoken with her friend and said that they could get together after 3PM.
    3. The home of a neighbor lady who had recently had a baby, whom Kate had promised to visit that afternoon.

    They did not make any of these "appointments" by 3PM.
    Last edited by Richard; 02-24-2012 at 11:26 AM. Reason: additional comment

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    True, the girls might have been visiting someone else in the neighbor for 4.5 to 5 hours, but isn't it more likely that they would have been heading home rather than back to the mall at 7:30 PM?

    Most accounts of the girls were that they were reliable and punctual when it came to returning home by supper time.

    Also, by 7:30 PM, John Lyon was driving around the neighborhood roads looking for the girls, and by 8PM, the police and parents were calling all of their friends and neighbors to see if anyone had seen them.

    In the days and weeks that followed, police went door to door asking questions. If someone in the neighborhood had seen or been with them that afternoon, it was not simply a case of them not coming forward, they would have had to lie to police about NOT seeing them.

    The girls had three potential destinations when headed home that afternoon around 3PM:

    1. Home, as that was the time they intended to arrive.
    2. The home of their neighbors, the Ganas family, as Kate had spoken with her friend and said that they could get together after 3PM.
    3. The home of a neighbor lady who had recently had a baby, whom Kate had promised to visit that afternoon.

    They did not make any of these "appointments" by 3PM.
    All true...did the old man lie to the police about NOT seeing them, I wonder ? And if they were hanging out someplace in the neighborhood, they may have actually been outside ? MOO

    I could have sworn that their mother had said that they were not always punctual ? MOO

    The appointments were probably very loose, MOO. Maybe they would go that day,maybe another...it was a vacation week,after all...

  13. #28
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    That fateful afternoon...

    Quote Originally Posted by liz b. View Post
    All true...did the old man lie to the police about NOT seeing them, I wonder ? And if they were hanging out someplace in the neighborhood, they may have actually been outside ? MOO

    I could have sworn that their mother had said that they were not always punctual ? MOO

    The appointments were probably very loose, MOO. Maybe they would go that day,maybe another...it was a vacation week,after all...
    I wish that I knew the answers, but unfortunately we have only the questions.

    I do not know what the story was with Mr. Mann who lived on the corner of Drumm and Devin. I do not know if he was ever questioned by police or if so what he told or didn't tell them regarding Sheila and Kate. I can tell you that his story never appeared in any police press briefings or any newspapers until he spoke with a reporter in 2005 and said that he had seen and waved to them that day in March 1975. In 2005 he was still living at the same address.

    I posted a portion of a Washington Star article from April 1975 a few days ago. The entire article is in the thread on News Articles. It was written after some long interviews with Mrs. Lyon and other members of her family. In it she is quoted as saying that the 3PM time was discussed as a "good time" to be home by, but that it was not hard and fast.

    She also stated that she was not really concerned about their absense at first because she thought that they might be visiting friends or taking in a movie. It was later at supper and when it got dark that she became very concerned about them because she said they were always home before dark/supper.

    The article also mentions that they checked the girls's banks which were in their room and that no money had been taken from them - which indicated that they did not have much money with them.

    Other articles mention that it was not like these girls to stay out late or to go places without checking in with their parents. Police immediately took their disappearance seriously because of their young ages and the fact that they were not in the habit of running off or staying out late.

  14. #29
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    Auramyst is offline One should look for what is, not for what one thinks should be ~Albert Einstein
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    My theory is Tape Recorder Man caught up with them outside the mall.

    It's just such a strange coincidence that a man would be tape recording the girls and then later those same girls disappear.

    I believe that after he recorded them in the mall, he found them outside the mall. Probably, as Richard has stated in his posts, out in the parking lot or a little further down the street.

    The girls wouldn't have any reason to find him threatening- after all, he was a 'professional' and an adult- someone who was 'doing his job' at the mall.

    This was a more naive time than now. Although I'm sure the girls were told to 'not talk to strangers', years ago the impressions of 'strangers' was someone dark and forboding... maybe offering candy. Certainly it wasn't someone in the mall 'doing their job'.

    Outside the mall, Tape Recorder Man probably used a ruse as simple as telling them that the recording didn't come out right and could they re-do it real quick- in his car.

    Or, he may have said that he wanted to tell their parents how good they did in the recording, or even play it for them... and he could give them a ride to their house to tell their parents all about it.

    Of course, once in the car...

    All of this is speculation, but I think that such an odd encounter, like the one they had with Tape Recorder Man, has something to do with them disappearing.
    All posts are my opinion

  15. #30
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    I'd like to offer a theory of how the girls could have been taken against their will.... in broad daylight....by a stranger....without anyone hearing or seeing anything. The girls cut through the woods taking the shortcut back to Jennings Rd. The nursing home parking lot would have been to their left...on the other side of the trees. The perp could have backed into a parking stall...popped the trunk but not opened it all the way. He might not have known the girls but he could have known the area and the habits of the neighborhood kids....such as the shortcut. He waits for a child to use the shortcut...steps out from the trees with a gun...tells the girls to come quietly. It would only be a few steps through the trees to the trunk of his car. That could be done in under a minute and he wouldn't have to try to control them or have them be seen while he's driving because he used the trunk. This can be done and has been done. Sisters older than Sheila and Kate went quietly.

    http://www.clpex.com/Articles/Newz/2002/2002-08-14.htm

    Evonitz was too young to have taken Sheila and Kate but he has proven how easily it could have been done and his victims weren't even walking through a wooded area.

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