05-18-2009, 11:27 AM #1
KC's whereabouts June 17 - June 20
I thought I'd start a new thread to pull some discussion into one place that is taking place on a couple of other threads. The discussion centers around the question of whether or not KC spent the night at Tony's June 17 - June 20.
Pulling over an initial post I made on the topic to open things up:
A few things about KC "living" with Tony have bothered me, and this was amplified by the "undiscovered" Sept. 8 interview. Here are some excerpts:
Speaking with Det. Edwards about June 16:EE: What did she bring to your apartment that night clothing-wise?The "ruck sack" does not show up for another 11 days (or so). In the undercover video with Lee, Tony mentions that KC more or less moved in on the 27th, which happened to be the day he went to NY.
TL: Just probably something to sleep in.
EE: So she didnít like show up with a ruck sack and a, that big bag that her brother ended up coming? That wasnít the night she brought that?
TL: No. I donít think she brought, she didnít have that until I think from, Iím pretty sure until the 27th. Thatís when she had stuff.
EE: Okay. So sheÖ
TL: Thatís what made me think that when that was the time I guess when she started stayingÖ
EE: When she set up camp?
TL: Just yeah (affirmative), well thatísÖ.
This is immediately followed by:EE: So before that she was just driving back and forth to Mom and Dadís getting fresh clothes?I found this rather surprising, as that first week (June 16 - June 20) KC's cell phone pings from Tony's apartment and then from the Anthony's on the 17th, 18th, and 20th, yet during that time Tony's phone pings from his apartment. His school schedule is such that he is home the 18th and 20th, and he voluntarily took the 17th off (he says he did not go anywhere that day). How could Tony forget those days as being ones where KC leaves?
TL: I wouldnít, uh, there would be times where I, Iím, thatís why I was saying that it was like, itís kind of hard to remember if she, she might have been there the nights that I was, I was home. But staying there during the day I donít know. I know for a fact that when I came back, and right before I, I left she was there during the days at my house. Like after that then she was like staying there. I donít think she ever left my place.
Reading the interview further, it is implied she was not there the eveing of the 17th, and Tony was not sure she was there the evening of the 18th. He said he needed to check his cell records to be sure.EE: Wednesday is, did she come back that night and stay over? BecauseÖHuh???
EE: Öshe stayed somewhere from that point on.
TL: I canít remember if she was there that night or not. Iíd have to look, uh, itís, itís better if I go in my phone records. Because if Iím talking to her at night then I know sheís not at my place. If Iím not talking to her then sheís probably, she could very well could be to my place.
If she suddenly started staying over from the 16th on, one would think he'd remember that, right?
Well, he does remember her staying over the night of the 20th:EE: Alright, let me run, let me run back then to the, I just want to make sure that wasnít the 20th.IMHO, Tony is sorta, kinda saying that her staying over the nights of the 17th - 19th is in question.
EE: Anything stand out in your mind? She stay overnight that night of the hot body?
TL: Oh, yeah (affirmative).
TL: Stayed over that night.
EE: You say oh, yeah (affirmative). How do, how do we know that?
TL: Because I remember her being, the reason why she even did the hot body was because she got a little drunk that night, and she also ran my bar, oh, she ran, because I alÖI usually go in there, Iíll usually go there early, like seven, eight oíclock, order some food, make sure everybody gets there on time, like I was working, and have my tab opened, you know? Never actually run, you know never ever actually have a tab. I made the mistake of saying you could buy a couple drinks on my tab. Well, because, because (inaudible) I get my money for that night and I got to use it to close the tab. So, she spent like sixty dollars on my tab that night. Thatís how I, I can remember stuff like that.
TL: Uh, because I remember scoldÖI was getting, I got pissed about that one.
EE: Is that the night sheís in the blue dress dancing with a girl in shorts there?
TL: Yup (affirmative).
YM: Thatís 20th, right? ThatísÖ
EE: Yeah (affirmative).
YM: Yeah (affirmative), thatís 20th.
Let's look at the cell records. Here is late June 17 / early June 18:6/17/08 TUE 11:24:43 PM OUTGOING TEXT Casey Anthony Anthony LazzaroHere is morning of June 19 (remember, Tony did not have school until 9:00 that day):
6/17/08 TUE 11:26:39 PM INCOMING TEXT Anthony Lazzaro Casey Anthony
6/17/08 TUE 11:27:33 PM OUTGOING TEXT Casey Anthony Anthony Lazzaro
6/17/08 TUE 11:28:19 PM INCOMING TEXT Anthony Lazzaro Casey Anthony
6/18/08 WED 12:10:17 AM OUTGOING CALL Casey Anthony Papa J's Pizza
6/18/08 WED 12:11:22 AM OUTGOING CALL Casey Anthony Papa J's Pizza
6/18/08 WED 12:17:48 AM OUTGOING CALL Casey Anthony Unidentified # 4074339999
6/18/08 WED 12:19:24 AM OUTGOING CALL Casey Anthony Unidentified # 4074339999
6/18/08 WED 12:22:07 AM OUTGOING TEXT Casey Anthony Anthony Lazzaro
6/18/08 WED 12:31:31 AM INCOMING TEXT Anthony Lazzaro Casey Anthony6/19/08 THU 8:32:28 AM OUTGOING TEXT Casey Anthony Anthony LazzaroAnd finally, here is the early AM of the 20th:
6/19/08 THU 11:03:47 AM INCOMING TEXT Anthony Lazzaro Casey Anthony6/20/08 FRI 12:22:32 AM OUTGOING TEXT Casey Anthony Anthony LazzaroWhy is KC texting Tony if they are supposedly in the same room?
IMHO, if you put Tony's recollections together with the cell phone record, KC was sleeping in her car most nights between June 17 and June 27.
More specifically, one can almost imagine her going to bed w/ Tony on the 16th with Caylee asleep in the trunk...finding her dead on the 17th...spending the evening of the 17th / 18th / 19th in the car with her dead child ... then on the 20th going out to party after deciding to discard the body.
This could further explain why she got so little sleep during that time period.
05-18-2009, 11:59 AM #2
JWG, you never cease to amaze me! I agree with the above stated theory and now I'm just wondering where she was parked during the night-time if she was sleeping/hanging out in her car. I recall you stating on another thread that she had ordered pizza from the Papa Johns clear across town, but weren't the rest of her pings from around TonE's apt. during this time period? Would she have been brazen enough to literally sleep in the parking lot of his apt. complex? Also was Amy's wrecked car still at TonE's during this time period? Could she have had Caylee's body in Amy's wrecked car during this period and been sleeping in the Pontiac near it just to keep watch?
05-18-2009, 11:59 AM #3Registered User
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June 17,18,or 19th she showed up at Chris's house in Tony's jeep and stayed for 2 hours.
05-18-2009, 12:23 PM #4
JWG, I haven't checked the other threads where you talked about this, so maybe you've already noticed, but KC called 2 Papa John's Pizza places around midnight on June 17-18. The first one was not near Tony's apartment, but 1 minute later she called one much closer to his apartment (Colonial & Goldenrod). It looks like the Papa John'ses (??) around there have a pattern of phone numbers: 407-xxx-7272. So maybe she just called a random exchange for the xxx and then asked them which Papa John's was closest to her, then called the close one. But do they deliver to cars on the street?? I wonder if LE has followed up on the delivery records for that Papa John's for a call received at 12:11 am June 18.
05-18-2009, 12:51 PM #5Registered User
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Hi JWG. I'm glad to see someone else is now thinking she didn't likely sleep at Tony's everynight before the 27th. I wasn't sure whether to post this here or in the thread that led me here but...
When I put in a google search for the 1st papa john's number with the 273 exchange, I come up with 11775 E. Colonial which is at the corner of Alafaya, not near Amscot, but near Tony R's. She calls twice after they close so on the first call she would find out they are closed if she weren't already aware of that. I think she was trying to reach an employee, looking for someone in particular. The first call was nearly a minute so not simply trying to order a pizza at an establishment that is closed. The 2nd call was only 4 seconds, still enough time to ask if so and so works there.
I also think the unknown number is important, ending 9999 but I haven't been able to find out anything about it other than it is an AT+T cell in the Kissimee/Orlando area. LATA is 45808. PhoneTray says its a Cingular number from Kissamee. She called this number right after, twice and talked for over a minute each. Since the calls were only 2 minutes apart, I'm sure this is important. LE didn't seem to follow up on a lot of things that raise questions in my mind.
05-18-2009, 01:14 PM #6
Just a thought.. but could she have been staying at Tony R's? I posted my thought [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3757187&postcount=193"]here[/ame] and wanted to bring it over for discussion.~~~~ There is a fine line between being a busybody and a sleuth.~~~~
05-18-2009, 01:40 PM #7
I'm not certain who it was, but, on one of the other threads IIRC, they suggested PJ's closed @ Midnight.
Casey's first call to PJ#1 @ 12:10AM 6/18 lasted 52 seconds. Her call to PJ#2 @ 12:11AM lasted 4 seconds. Perhaps call#1 was an "I'm sorry, we're closed" w/ some attempt to flirt the guy into just one more order (pick-up or delivery)...and/or...as you suggest, just a call to get the closer store's phone#, only to dial it and learn that they were closed.
The 2 calls to 407-###-9999 @ 12:17 & 12:19AM lasted 1min 18secs and 1min 12secs respectively. This same number was called 6/29 @ 6:06PM...the only other time 6/1-7/17 it was called, except on 6/29 it doesn't appear to have an associated duration. There were no incoming calls from this number during the entire period.
Somehow the 9999 call seems like it would provide a clue as to what Casey was thinking/planning in response to not getting PJ.
I looked for any possible mis-dialing of this number that might match to another number in her records she might've been attempting to dial. No luck. Dialed today it yields a 'not a valid #' message.
I'm intrigued by Casey's calls to this 9999 lasting >1min. That she dialed it again on 6/29...
05-18-2009, 01:42 PM #8
note the prefixes are different 433, 478, 447 respectively...
Per the cell records... it states those are ATT system messages?
Seems to me.. are some Pay phones that the last 4 digits start with a 9....
here is a link that is quite interesting and it looks like alot of the pay phone numbers start with a 9
http://www.payphone-project.com/~~~~ There is a fine line between being a busybody and a sleuth.~~~~
05-18-2009, 01:54 PM #9
We know Tony skipped out Tuesday's day schedule to sleep in w/ Casey.
Appears to me from Tony's pings that he went to Full Sail <11:13PM Tuesday night 6/17 for classes (South-to-Northwest side of the Purlieu tower which is consistent w/ Full Sail vs. South-to-Northeast side which is consistent w/ his apt.).
That would be one legitimate explanation for Casey texting with Tony from his apt. area later @ 12:22AM 6/18.
FYI. CID's for Tony's texts messages aren't available to my knowledge.
05-18-2009, 02:03 PM #10
As part of the effort to nail KC's whereabouts on the days in question, one must be willing to blow some holes in one's own theory.
So here goes the first hole...
On June 17 9:14 PM, according the Photobucket investigative materials (discovery page 4043), KC uploaded a picture (I believe the one with Tony where she is wearing a black dress) to Photobucket from an IP address registering from his apartment. So she was there at least at that time.
Furthermore, while Tony skipped class in the AM to be with KC, he did have class from 9PM to 1AM that evening and probably did not skip that one. That could explain the 10-or-so texts between the two of them between ~8:40PM and 12:20 AM.
05-18-2009, 02:33 PM #11
Here is some more information regarding Casey staying at Tony's after June 9th per Maria Kissh, Clint House's girlfriend
PR: After June 9th?
MK: Yes, while he was looking for a place to live. And uhm...Clint stayed at Tony's temp from June 1st until I believe July 1st.
PR: So uh, Casey was staing with Tony?
PR: Casey was basically stating over at Tony's
MK: Basically, uh-hum. And I knew this because Clint, my boyfriend, was staying there for a few weeks while he was lookng for a new apartment. Uhm, and I would, I would call Clint in the mid... in the middle of the afternooon whti his breaks between classes adn seh would ju be over there hanging out. And she was always, you know, fixing him(Tony) dinner. Uhm, she would go out, actually I know we went out the 20th.~~~~ There is a fine line between being a busybody and a sleuth.~~~~
05-18-2009, 03:30 PM #12
Which reminds me of a favorite quote...
"No problem can withstand the assault of sustained thinking." - Voltaire
Bringing this lil' gem back to help us (nice return on investment for stuff you did months ago, eh, JWG?).
Not all that pertinent to this thread, but, FWIW, I'm a proponent that the times on the EnCase chart are actually shifted 1 hr vs. 'reality' (e.g. chart shows 9-10PM what activity was really happening 10-11PM)
Back on-topic...FWIW, the heavy usage shown from 9-10PM (read 10-11PM per above note, IMHO) reflects Casey's first opportunity to get on the laptop after downloading pics onto it that afternoon 2-3PM (read 3-4PM, IMHO) when Tony left for Full Sail that night (6/17).
...so...not a hole @ all. Now we have a clearer picture of what Casey did the evening after she had - only a few hours earlier - confronted the consequences of her actions in the trunk of her car @ G&C's.
Hmmmm...what to do?...what to do? I know! after spending the last couple of hours glued to her PC like a WS (no time to eat or goto the bathroom) she got off the computer just after midnight 12AM-1AM (read 11-12PM on the Encase chart) and tried to order pizza..."Hello! I'm starved...can you send over a large...What?!...You're closed?! D@mbit!??? What a waste! A huge waste!"
05-18-2009, 03:48 PM #13Inactive
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05-18-2009, 03:52 PM #14Inactive
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05-18-2009, 03:56 PM #15
...looking @ Wednesday, 6/18, we don't have much to go on @ first-glance.
Casey made the trip to G&C's in the afternoon for some shovel-time. Tony appeared to hang out @ his apt. and maybe (speculation) make a trip over to Lexus around the time Casey went to G&C's. Without CID's on Tony's texts I can't place him very well...too few calls to/from Tony 6/18.
No texts 'tween Casey & Amy 6/18.
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