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  1. #1
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    "two gentlemen watching over" Leopold & Loeb?

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperDave View Post
    Maybe so. But, as you say, "I think that the best way to establish this is to show the author of RN knew of LLRN" So far I'm not convinced they did.

    One of the things I always emphasize about this case is to have the proper respect for the difference between knowledge and wisdom. That's one thing both orders have in common.

    Leopold and Loeb RN (abbreviated here as LLRN)

    I'd like to point out that there is nothining in the LLRN to show they read Nietzsche, the Great Books of WEstern Civ, (i.e Shakespeare) studied law at Univ of Chicago, knew a lot about birds, languages, and mathematics.

    Bird Watching was the initial excuse they gave to detectives when their glasses were found on Bobby Frank.

    typical RN are short and to the point.

    "Dear Sir! Have 50,000$ redy 2500$ in 20$ bills 1 5000$ in 10$ bills and 10000$ in 5$ bills. After 2-4 days we will inform you were to deliver the Mony. We warn you for making anyding public or for the polise the child is in gut care. Indication for all letters are signature and 3 holes" Linberg baby


    "Get $20,000 ready & waite (sic) for word. Do not notify FBI or police. Bills in $5's and $10's." On the backside was a warning: "Burn this for her safty (sic)""A killer left a ransom note when he took Suzanne Degnan, 6, from her home in the middle of the night on January 6, 1946. Her dismembered body was found the next day. A child molester named Richard Thomas confessed to the murder, though notorious killer William Heirens also confessed to the killing. In either event, it was clearly a sex murder and not a kidnapping,

    . 'Attention,' it said. 'I'm sorry this had to happen, but I am in bad need of money, & couldn't get it any other way. Don't tell anyone or go to the police about this, because I am watching you closely. I am scared stiff, & will kill the baby at your first wrong move ... Your baby sitter.' I

    The above describe the desire for money and the reason your child is missing.

    compare the above RN notes involving children, with Leopold and Loeb RN (abbreviated here as LLRN) and JB RN

    1 length using M$ Word, then used word count. It's 377 words, with SBTC as one word. The L&L is 310, that's 85%. Both are LONG.

    2 purpose -- both were written as staging

    3- both were "impostures" RN "foreign faction, LLRN "Mr. Johnson"

    3a
    first person plural and singular

    Allow us
    We are a

    3b
    Only father addressed,

    Dear Sir Mr. Ramsey

    3c kidnapping name not mentioned

    your son
    your daughter

    3d
    L&L admit their letter was the result of their fantasy of the perfect crime, and their readings
    RN alludes to movie quotes of thriller genre (comparable knowledge base)

    3e use of highly educated and sophisticated vocabulary (in place of easier words)

    denominations extremely commercial proposition execution infraction receipt final course
    posession attache monitor deviation execution remains situation scanned devices countermeasures and tactics scrutiny



    4- similarities in ideas

    you line up carefully to the following instructions
    Listen carefully!


    As you no doubt know by this time
    At this time we

    At this time we have your daughter in our posession
    As you no doubt know by this time, your son has been kidnapped

    She is safe and unharmed and if you want her to see 1997,
    Allow us to assure you that he is at present well and safe

    Secure before noon today
    I will call you between 8 and 10 am tomorrow
    If we monitor you getting the money early

    you must follow our instructions to the letter.
    You need fear no physical harm for him, provided you line up carefully to the following instructions and to such others as you will receive by furture comminications.

    disobey any of our instructions, even slightly, his death will be the penalty
    Any deviation of my instructions

    to the following instructions and to such others
    you must follow our instructions

    Any deviation of my instructions will result in the immediate execution of your daughter.
    Should you, however, disobey any of our instructions, even slightly, his death will be the penalty.

    For obvious reasons make absolutely no attempt to communicate with either police authorities
    speaking to anyone about your situation, such as Police, F.B.I., etc.,

    or any private agency
    If we catch you talking to a stray dog . If you alert bank authorities,

    Allow us to assure you that he is at present well and safe
    She is safe and unharmed and if you want her to see 1997,
    Follow our instructions and you stand a 100% chance of getting her back.

    Should you already have communicated with the police, allow them to continue their investigations, but do not mention this letter.
    You can try to deceive us but be warned that we are familiar with law enforcement countermeasures and tactics.You and your family are under constant scrutiny as well as the authorities.

    Secure before noon today $10,000. this money must be composed entirely of old bills of the following denominations: $2000 in $20 bills, $8000 in $50 bills.
    You will withdraw $118,000.00 from your account. $100,000 will be in $100 bills and the remaining $18,000 in $20 bills.

    the money must be old. Any attempt to include new or marked bills will render the entire venture futile.
    If you alert bank authorities, she dies. If the money is in any way marked or tampered with, she dies. You will be scanned for electronic devices and if any are found, she dies.

    The money should be place in a large cigar box, or if this is impossible, in a heavy cardboard box,
    Make sure that you bring an adequate size attache to the bank.

    securely closed and wrapped in white paper. The wrapping paper should be sealed at all openings with sealing wax.
    When you get home you will put the money in a brown paper bag.

    Have the money with you, prepared as directed above, and
    If we monitor you getting the money early

    this is an extremely commercial proposition
    we might call you early to arrange and earlier delivery of the money
    If the money is in any way marked or tampered with
    You are not the only fat cat around

    remain at home after one o'clock.
    I will call you between 8 and 10 am tomorrow

    to instruct you on delivery. See that the telephone is not in use.
    The delivery will be exhausting so I advise you to be rested.

    You will receive a further communication instructing you as to your final course.
    If we monitor you getting the money early, we might call you early to arrange and earlier delivery of the money

    we are prepared to put our threat into execution
    You stand a 99% chance of killing your daughter if you try to out smart us
    don't think that killing will be difficult.

    should we have reasonable grounds to believe
    Don't try to grow a brain John. Use that good southern common sense of yours.

    should we have reasonable grounds to believe that you have committed an infraction of the above instructions.
    You and your family are under constant scrutiny as well as the authorities.

    that you have committed an infraction of the above instructions.
    You can try to deceive us but be warned
    if you try to out smart us.

    However, should you carefully follow out our instructions to the letter,
    Follow our instructions and you stand a 100% chance of getting her back.


    As a final word of warning,
    Don't underestimate us John.
    I advise you not to provoke them.

    we can assure you that you son will be safely returned to you within six hours of our receipt of the money.
    we monitor you getting the money early, we might call you early to arrange and earlier delivery of the money and hence a earlier delivery pick-up of your daughter.

    carefully follow out our instructions we can assure you that you son will be safely returned to you
    Any deviation of my instructions will result in the immediate execution of your daughter. You will also be denied her remains for proper burial.
    Follow our instructions and you stand a 100% chance of getting her back

    For obvious reasons
    Use that good southern common sense of yours



    5- similar ideas are presented in similar sequence
    6- LLRN George slips up and goes from first person singular to plural. RN starts out first person plural and slips to first person singular.
    7 When Bobby's dad read the RN, Bobby was dead. Like wise for the R's.
    8 LL intended Bobby die BEFORE the parents read the RN. Possibly true for R's.

    9 The IDI would know LL were extremely intelligent Univ of Chicago students, and the whole point of their crime was to prove their intellectual superiority in the perfect crime. The RN reads "Don't try to grow a brain John. if you try to out smart us. we are familiar with law enforcement countermeasures and tactics.

    This level of understanding and detail on the crime is presented in 1 hour documentaries on true crime. (i.e like an A&E documentary on Black Dahlia, Jimmy Hoffra, JFK assassination)

    10 Money was not the primary motive to LL according to their testimony. Proving their are Nietzschean supermen was. The RN asks for a paltry $118k and never attempted to collect on it.

    11 LL stabbed Bobby in the head, piercing it, and stuffed a sock down his throat, choking and suffocating him. It was alleged they performed "molestation" (not sure what that consists of) on him, given that they LL freely admitted they were gay lovers and promised to performing fellatio on one another after the crime. JB was struck in the head, strangled and suffocated. The DNA mixed in her blood from her vagina was mixed with the same DNA as touch DNA on her clothing. Semen was not found, so saliva from oral sex is one way this could happen.

    12 LLRN starts "Dear Sir:" ends "Yours truly, George Johnson" RN intros with "we... foreign faction" and ends "Victory SBTC"

    4 sections

    1. For obvious reasons make absolutely no attempt to communicate
    you must follow our instructions to the letter.

    2. Secure before noon today $10,000. this money must be composed entirely
    You will withdraw $118,000.00 from your account. $100,000

    3. The money should be place in a large cigar box, or if this is im
    When you get home you will put the money in a brown paper bag.

    4. Have the money with you, prepared as directed above, a
    If we monitor you getting the money early, we might call you early to arrange and earlier delivery of the money


    LL knew a lot about BIRDS (orthinology), law as Univ of Chicago law students, philosophy, Nietzsche, Great Books, mathematics, and spoke several languages, and they had been studying criminal investigation prior to Bfrank's murder. Yet their LLRN has no quotes to Nietzsche or shakepeare or even BIRDS.

    No "God is dead. God remains Dead we have killed him. The future is ubermensche. DIonsys and appollian.

    If those glasses were untraceable, obviously bobby frank's father would be the prime suspect for his murder. I doubt that anyone reading LLRN note would think "child prodigies at Univ of Chicago law"

    but here this RN does have traits of LLRN.

    " the two gentlemen watching over your daughter do not particularly like you so I advise you not to provoke them."
    "Allow us to assure you that he is at present well and safe. You need fear no physical harm for him, we can assure you that you son will be safely returned to you" "we are prepared to put our threat into execution"


    Leopold & Loeb? Dear Sir: Yours truly, George Johnson
    The IDI intended investigators to infer his RN is structured after LL & movies, so as LL murdered Bobby Frank, they had killed JB, and wanted the "it's up to you now" crowd to pick up on this.
    Last edited by voynich; 05-19-2009 at 08:19 PM.

  2. #2
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    Hi voynich.

    How much time did it take you to compose your draft of the LL and JBR rn, sorta superimposed?

    Ya, that's a very interesting comparative when you lay out the 2 formats? as you just did.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tadpole12 View Post
    Hi voynich.

    How much time did it take you to compose your draft of the LL and JBR rn, sorta superimposed?

    Ya, that's a very interesting comparative when you lay out the 2 formats? as you just did.
    I started thinking about it after SD mentioned it, but it initially took me an hour but then I spent another hour revising it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by voynich View Post
    I started thinking about it after SD mentioned it, but it initially took me an hour but then I spent another hour revising it.
    Hey Voynich.

    Ya ... it was a good read and a really good effort.
    S'cool because sometimes you really need to see it broken down, the rn , or a 'visual' for a comparative.

    There are so many themes you can draw from the rn and place those attributes to the killer.

    But for sure, as you laid it out, both pieces are so polite in form even with the violent imagery and threats. Ridiculously polite and absurd.


    So ..... it would take about an hour to first draft the rn.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tadpole12 View Post
    Hey Voynich.

    Ya ... it was a good read and a really good effort.
    S'cool because sometimes you really need to see it broken down, the rn , or a 'visual' for a comparative.

    There are so many themes you can draw from the rn and place those attributes to the killer.

    But for sure, as you laid it out, both pieces are so polite in form even with the violent imagery and threats. Ridiculously polite and absurd.


    So ..... it would take about an hour to first draft the rn.
    About as long as it takes for a tadpole to become a frog
    Last edited by voynich; 05-19-2009 at 07:14 PM.

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    So often times it happens that we live our life in chains, and we never even know we have the key. ...Eagles, "Already Gone"

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    Quote Originally Posted by poco View Post
    You're not the only fat cat around

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tadpole12 View Post
    Hey Voynich.

    Ya ... it was a good read and a really good effort.
    S'cool because sometimes you really need to see it broken down, the rn , or a 'visual' for a comparative.

    There are so many themes you can draw from the rn and place those attributes to the killer.

    But for sure, as you laid it out, both pieces are so polite in form even with the violent imagery and threats. Ridiculously polite and absurd.

    Thanks. Indeed, both are "Ridiculously polite and absurd"

    like.....'two gentlemen watching over your daughter'

    "we respect your business" "yours truly"

    I sense darkness in them

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    In order to assess the importance of the parallels of RN and LLN, it would be instructive to see if there is (are) anything in LLRN that is NOT mirrored in JB RN.

    The one phrase, which comes at the end, is this

    "you son will be safely returned to you within six hours of our receipt of the money"

    There is no good parallel in JB RN, no definitive statement about when to expect the return of JB after receipt of money, except, perhaps,

    She is safe and unharmed and if you want her to *see 1997*, you must follow our instructions to the letter. (Given that it was written Dec 25/26, and wanted money "tomorrow" alluding 25/26, 1997 begins Jan 1, 1997 or *before* 5 days after receipt of money" -- doesn't promise he will return her by 1997, only that she lives to 1997)

    Another way to assess this is to compare/contrast this to other RN that predate 1996 that the R's would have reasonable chance to know about (Linbergh kidnapping is famous).

    "Dear Sir! Have 50,000$ redy 2500$ in 20$ bills 1 5000$ in 10$ bills and 10000$ in 5$ bills. We warn you for making anyding public or for the polise the child is in gut care. Indication for all letters are signature and 3 holes

    "Get $20,000 ready & waite (sic) for word. Do not notify FBI or police. Bills in $5's and $10's." "Burn this for her safty (sic)""

    . 'Attention,' it said. 'I'm sorry this had to happen, but I am in bad need of money, & couldn't get it any other way. Don't tell anyone or go to the police about this, because I am watching you closely. I am scared stiff, & will kill the baby at your first wrong move ... Your baby sitter.'

    "You will withdraw $118,000.00 from your account. $100,000 will be in $100 bills and the remaining $18,000 in $20 bills."

    "Speaking to anyone about your situation, such as Police, F.B.I., etc., will result in your daughter being beheaded."

    "She is safe and unharmed"
    "execution of your daughter...she dies x3" "daughter being beheaded" "killing your daughter"


    Prior to JB RN, the LLRN was exceptional in length and purpose b/c money according LL was not the primary motive, proving their intellectual superiority in Nietzschean sense was.

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    JR did, after reading RN, go to the bank to withdraw the money as demanded. Did he do this after consulting LE or on his own? Did he bring a large enough attache, and did he get the entire $118k exactly in the denominations RN requested?


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    When did he leave to get the money and I think that the LE would tell him to stay put cause the kidnappers was to call..Now he did disappear but later he told he was in the basement.
    Knowledge of time is precious.Wisdom of truth is more precious than time..Opinions I write are mine..

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    Quote Originally Posted by voynich View Post
    JR did, after reading RN, go to the bank to withdraw the money as demanded. Did he do this after consulting LE or on his own? Did he bring a large enough attache, and did he get the entire $118k exactly in the denominations RN requested?
    JR did not leave to get the money. It was arranged via phone with a friend in Atlanta to be available. Only an idiot would have followed the instructions in the ransom note---which indicates to me that the killer was one can short of a six pack to even think the parents would follow their instructions. The whole idea was amateruish.

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    Reading the comparison in the L&L note and Ramsey ransom note, is interesting....there are similarities. The L&L ransom note was based on a kidnapping in a true crime magazine, so wasn't completely made up by L&L.

    The L&L note was not staging. They wanted to collect the money as part of their twisted plan....it was the part least thought out, and they failed, much to Leopold's chagrin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maikai View Post
    Reading the comparison in the L&L note and Ramsey ransom note, is interesting....there are similarities. The L&L ransom note was based on a kidnapping in a true crime magazine, so wasn't completely made up by L&L.

    The L&L note was not staging. They wanted to collect the money as part of their twisted plan....it was the part least thought out, and they failed, much to Leopold's chagrin.


    "there are similarities" w/ some other RN notes. but mostly that they request money and said we have your child and do NOT contact LE -- the others are extremely short.

    The one difference is that LLRN has a timeframe of the return of the already dead Bobby Frank within 6 hours of receipt of money, whereas the RN says "if you want her to see 1997" written on Dec 25th.

    So LL had multiple motives for their crime, money, sex, murder, Nietzsche, kidnapping, outsmarting LE, and creating the perfect crime.

    If they wanted the money why did they immediately execute Bobby Frank and dump his body where it could NEVER BE FOUND? -- they did attempt to burn the body to make it unrecognizeable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maikai View Post
    JR did not leave to get the money. It was arranged via phone with a friend in Atlanta to be available. Only an idiot would have followed the instructions in the ransom note---which indicates to me that the killer was one can short of a six pack to even think the parents would follow their instructions. The whole idea was amateruish.
    Or, the RN was staged to mislead as to the true motive.

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