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  1. #16
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    possible

    Quote Originally Posted by Bargle View Post
    A fair number of people think his first murder occurred in 1963.
    The murder of Robert Domingos and Linda Edwards shows a number of similarities to
    the known Zodiac crimes. Here's a post from Morf that gives more info.
    http://websleuths.com/forums/showthr...os#post3851430

    While I'm not certain this was a Z attack, there are enough similarities that I keep
    an open mind to the possibility.
    Thankyou for the kind response.

    It has been quite awhile since I read all the available material (that I could find) on
    the zodiac killings so I do not remember all the cases mentioned by
    everyone that thought a case might have a tie-in to Zodiac.

    The Bates case may well be some of his work. Keeping an open mind is a good thing.

    As for the Domingos & Edwards case, I don't know but it does show a killer
    that does not mind attacking couples.
    It also seems to be a case of just being there to do the kill
    and then leave.
    (I also read the post you linked.)

  2. #17
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    RE; The Bates case- Exactly a month after teh Bates murder, The killer (or someone claiming to be the killer) sent in a "confession letter" with details of the crime to the local paper. Exactly 6 months after the murder,police, the local paper, and the Father of Bates, all got hand printed letters saying that "Bates had to die, there will be more". The writing was disguised, but there appears to be a Z-LIKE symbol at the bottom of each letter. Soon after, there was a desktop poem found by janitors in Riverside college where Bates was killed. It was etched into the desktop, and years later, a writing expert that worked on the Zodiac case decided the desk poem was the writing of Zodiac, thus the connection or apparent connection was linked. When it appeared in the papers Zodiac sent in a letter giving the cops credit for stumbling across his Riverside activities, and he stated "you are only finding the easy ones, there are a hell of alot more down there" (meaning southern CA)

    As far as the Domingos/Edwards case, it is indeed very similar to the Zodiac attack at Lake Berryessa in that the couple was attacked at a secluded beach location. The killer used both a knife & a gun, and more interestingly, pre-cut lengths of clothesline. Like the Zodiac attack at Lake Berryessa, rape & robbery were not a motive.
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  3. #18
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    If Cheri Jo Bates was a Zodiac victim, then she was the first. He crowed so much about it that it is inconceivable that she could have been any other than his first victim. Usually, Zodiac left only a single letter concerning a certain murder or sometimes left only a cryptic clue (and, in some cases, literally cryptic) that he had murdered someone. But Cheri Jo Bates is completely different. Zodiac wrote a letter to the local police which he entitled “The Confession” detailing the murder; he sent a short, taunting letter to Joseph Bates (Cheri Jo’s father) and sent identical ones to the police and to the Press-Enterprise (a Riverside newspaper) that simply read, “BATES HAD TO DIE THERE WILL BE MORE”; he scratched a sick poem into a desktop in the Riverside Community College Library concerning the murder signing it “rh”. In all cases, he promised that more murders would follow. He also signed his “BATES HAD TO DIE…” letters with what appears to be a stylized “Z”. He admitted years later in another letter that he had, in fact, killed Bates (not mentioning her by name but rather confessing to his “Riverside activities”). All this demonstrates that he might have already had the Zodiac idea in his mind and had been toying with it for some time, probably since his teens.

    Zodiac lied a couple of times in his letters about the killing of Bates. He stated, “SHE IS NOT THE FIRST AND SHE WILL NOT BE THE LAST….” She was the first in all likelihood. He also stated, “MISS BATES WAS STUPID. SHE WENT TO THE SLAUGHTER LIKE A LAMB. SHE DID NOT PUT UP A STRUGGLE. BUT I DID.” The crime scene suggests otherwise. According to the police report, “The churned-up ground where they had struggled looked like a freshly plowed field.” Others have mentioned the broken watch nd the skin under her fingernails. This would indicate that Bates not only put up a struggle but came close to overpowering her attacker--something that someone like Zodiac with his ego would be loath to admit. This is also a fact that would again indicate this was Zodiac's first victim. He didn't realize how strong a teenaged girl with her adrenaline pumping could be and it nearly cost him everything. That was a mistake he would never make again.

    What is odd is that the latest Bates could have left the RCC Library would have been shortly before 9:00 p.m. when the place closed. Yet witnesses reported hearing a woman’s screams at around 10:30 or so (the medical examiner confirmed that Bates died about that time). In his confession, the killer stated that he had previously pulled a wire out of the distributor cap on Bates’s VW before entering the library. He said he waited about two minutes after she left before he went outside. She was unsuccessful in getting her car started. The killer offered to help but pretended not to know what was wrong. He told her that he could give her a lift and that his car was down the street and they began walking. Then, according to the killer, he told Bates that it was about time. “About time for what?” she asked. “About time for you to die!” he said, grabbing her around the throat and pulling a knife and the struggle was on. Yet, this struggle could hardly have taken an hour-and-a-half. They might have messed with the VW for maybe a half an hour at the most and the struggle could not have lasted more than a few minutes. That leaves at least an hour unaccounted for. If the Zodiac’s watch had the correct time and it stopped at 12:23 being damaged during the attack, then he appears to have spent nearly three and a half unaccountable hours with his victim before killing her. But at the very least, we have one lost hour. What transpired between Bates and her killer during that time? Perhaps Bates did not return to her car immediately, but went somewhere else for an hour and a half. If so, where and with whom?

    One thing Zodiac realized about his killing of Cheri Jo Bates was the need to work out and stay strong. Zodiac worked out regularly after this murder. Evidence of murders attributed to him have told investigators that he was immensely strong. He appears to have hurled bodies over tall fences and over wide ravines. The Lake Berryessa attacker was a large, stocky man. Witnesses who had seen the mystery man who antagonized and eventually murdered Darlene Ferrin reported that he too was powerfully built.

  4. #19
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    Some NEW never before seen FBI documents in the Zodiac case, obtained by a FOIA request from Morf. They deal with the murder of Cheri Jo Bates, and they show that the local suspect favored by the Riverside PD was absolutely eliminated as the source of the mtDNA from the hair found in her hand. They also show IMO that this was very likely a murder done by Zodiac, as other evidence suggests, and that the hair of the killer was BROWN.

    http://unazod.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=146

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by AKWILKS View Post
    Some NEW never before seen FBI documents in the Zodiac case, obtained by a FOIA request from Morf. They deal with the murder of Cheri Jo Bates, and they show that the local suspect favored by the Riverside PD was absolutely eliminated as the source of the mtDNA from the hair found in her hand. They also show IMO that this was very likely a murder done by Zodiac, as other evidence suggests, and that the hair of the killer was BROWN.

    http://unazod.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=146
    Interesting!
    Ive always felt in my heart she was a Zodiac victim especially looking at the letters.
    I think possibly Zodiac was afraid he was too personally involved with the Riverside killing and hadnt CYA'd enough so he didnt immediatly connect it to his Vallejo string of murders.
    But by the time Paul Avery made the connection I think Zodiac was afraid some of his marquee power was fading with the papers and his ego made him take credit for it.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by kline View Post
    Interesting!
    Ive always felt in my heart she was a Zodiac victim especially looking at the letters.
    I think possibly Zodiac was afraid he was too personally involved with the Riverside killing and hadnt CYA'd enough so he didnt immediatly connect it to his Vallejo string of murders.
    But by the time Paul Avery made the connection I think Zodiac was afraid some of his marquee power was fading with the papers and his ego made him take credit for it.
    Might be a good idea to try and use this point as a starting block. Men connected to her school and college might throw up a candidate that at the time was on the perimeter but could now be important if indeed he went on to be the Z.

    Edited to add
    A friend of mine many years ago got into a fight and got a black eye and bloody lip. He was too ashamed to go to work (as he worked in an office and had to see well to do customers)
    He took 3 weeks off work for the injuries to disappear. Maybe Z waited a month before sending the first of his letters because Cheri Jo had infact given him some facial injuries.

  7. #22
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    Given that hair color changes over time, and with exposure to sun light, and given the problems of subjective perceptions of color and word meanings, I can give a little slack to RPD for saying the hair was "sandy blonde", which happens to match local suspect "Barnett", while the FBI report says it is "brown."

    More troubling is that even after the DNA comparison which excludes Barnett, the RPD still kept the focus on him as a suspect, and refused to pursue the possible Zodiac connection to the case. I can personally state that in 2009 and 2010 Detective Steve Shumway of the RPD refused to look at or consider evidence pointing to the Zodiac as the killer of Cheri.

    I am not going to contact RPD at this time. I will try to get other Zodiac and EAR/ONS investigators to access the actual mtDNA results for comparison purposes. Now that I have a case# and lab# that will be a little easier.

    Also the report indicates FOUR hairs found on the blod clot in Cheri's hand. IMO it could be possible ONE hair came from a police officer or lab tech. But not FOUR hairs on a BLOOD CLOT.

    IMO these hairs are from the killer, and the killer was almost certainly Zodiac. I want to get this mtDNA compared to my POI's mtDNA, that from other good suspects and to any mtDNA from other possibly related unsolved crimes like EAR/ONS and Percy. Thanks Morf you gave me more work to do! But it just may lead to a breakthrough, I am going to try anyway.

    I see that a person claiming the whole Zodiac case is a hoax says the mtDNA used to compare to local suspect 'Barnett' was aged and faulty. These reports show that is false as they show a good sample was obtained and Barnett was conclusively cleared as a nonmatch. Also for those who say the hair in Chei's hand could have come from a cop that seems highly unlikely as these reports show it was actually FOUR hairs in a blood clot.

    The handwriting, letter, word usage, spelling, MO and circumstantial evidence IMO shows Zodiac very likely killed Bates.

    Then we have the early reports from the RPD that say the confession letter writer was the killer because he knew details that had not been released, then years later when a jailhouse informant turned them onto Barnett, they backtracked on everything pointing to Zodiac and said all the letters came from cranks.

    Go to google and type in "jailhouse informant" and "wrongful conviction".

    California just signed a law barring jailhouse snitch testinmony unless it is backed by physical evidence, because false testimony from jailhouse informants have been responsible for hundreds of false convictions. Of all the convictions overturned by new DNA evidence, at least 15% were found to have involved utterly false and invented testimony from jailhouse informants or informants seeking to reduce charges or prison time.

    Was Barnett really playing basketball and then Cheri called him, and then did he really shout out "That ***** is going to the library!" I say no way. False story by a jailhouse informant. It makes no sense at all. Its contrived and melodramatic and rings false. Why would she tell him she was at the library? Why would he care? Why would he shout it out for several people to hear? Why did nobody else report this? Why did Cheri herself never reveal any concerns about Barnett? Why did no other friends of Cheri or Barnett ever report any of this?

    For me personally these reports show that the four hairs in a blood clot almost certainly were from Cheri's killer, the killer was not Barnett, and since all the other evidence in the case IMO points strongly to Zodiac as the probable killer, that means for me these hairs and this mtDNA are very likley from Zodiac. I am going to use what contacts I have and what energy I can muster to try to get them compared to Kaczynski, other good POI's and DNA from other unsolved cases. I think this is the best evidence we have.

    Also in regards to the evidence pointing to the Zodiac Killer/Ted Kaczynski as a suspect in the Tylenol Murders, if the FBI wants to actually solve that case they could easily compare the DNA here in the Bates case, which is very likely the genetic profile of the Zodiac Killer (and IMO also Ted Kaczynski), to the DNA they have in the Tylenol case.












  8. #23
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    similar handwriting?

    Hey guys, found some handwriting I think looks similar to both the Cheri Jo Bates letters and the Zodiac letters. It's from a letter written by Martin Ray Smartt. The pictures are here, http://www.keddiemurdersfilm.com/gal...les/index.html . He is a suspect in the Keddie case. According to the "Marty" timeline at the keddie site, http://www.keddiemurdersfilm.com/timeline.php Aged 17, he married 07-24-66 in Imperial County,Ca. Then he and his wife have 3 kids between 67-71, all born in San Bernardino,Ca. Then after returning from Vietnam in 69 he moved to Pheonix. Not sure about the timeline?
    letter_envelope.jpg love_note.jpg post_it_note.jpg
    Cheri_Jo_Bates_-_Riverside_Joseph_Bates_April_30_1967_letter.jpg Cheri_Jo_Bates_-_Riverside_Police_Department_April_30_1967_letter.jpg
    Not sure if i've picked the best Bates samples, and could'nt fit any Zodiac samples but i'm sure you've got your own.
    I just think the writing is similar, and he appears to have been living in the general vicinity, at the right time.(for Bates)
    Just wanted to share

  9. #24
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    Thumbs up

    Good find, but wouldn't that put him out of the area at the time of occurance with the other suspected Zodiac crimes?( am am confident he killed the # of people he claimed to have killed, putting him on the scale of Gary Ridgeway)
    I have often considered that the Zodic had a few admirers and that a few of the crimes could have been copy cats.
    I have a suspect who is sixty four, vary capable(as I watched him swim acroos a category 3 river), so I have no doubt he would/could still be alive and able to kill.
    Chery Jo Bates I think is one of the strongest links, as her father worked at an ordinance factory...and that zodiac sign may represent the sights/view of a gunship(this connection also is a kenning in Norse and may identify my suspect by name-KEN). I am most confident that the Zodiac used runes and multiple meanings of things in his letters and am concentating on finding clues within the letters themselves.
    I notices that your yellow envelope is not plastered with extra stamps....that was one of the letters you speak of, but not sure it was a Zodiac letter(from the guy claiming to be the zodiac).
    Please read the Zodiac Name post please, I need some help in determining if I am actually cracking the code. I believe I am on the right track.

    Quote Originally Posted by Extrachewyy View Post
    Hey guys, found some handwriting I think looks similar to both the Cheri Jo Bates letters and the Zodiac letters. It's from a letter written by Martin Ray Smartt. The pictures are here, http://www.keddiemurdersfilm.com/gal...les/index.html . He is a suspect in the Keddie case. According to the "Marty" timeline at the keddie site, http://www.keddiemurdersfilm.com/timeline.php Aged 17, he married 07-24-66 in Imperial County,Ca. Then he and his wife have 3 kids between 67-71, all born in San Bernardino,Ca. Then after returning from Vietnam in 69 he moved to Pheonix. Not sure about the timeline?
    letter_envelope.jpg love_note.jpg post_it_note.jpg
    Cheri_Jo_Bates_-_Riverside_Joseph_Bates_April_30_1967_letter.jpg Cheri_Jo_Bates_-_Riverside_Police_Department_April_30_1967_letter.jpg
    Not sure if i've picked the best Bates samples, and could'nt fit any Zodiac samples but i'm sure you've got your own.
    I just think the writing is similar, and he appears to have been living in the general vicinity, at the right time.(for Bates)
    Just wanted to share

  10. #25
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    @extrachewwy:
    Your letter from the perp you speak of is indeed a close match to Zodiac writting in my HO.
    I never considered really a legion of killers working for satan at the same time, but the more I study this case, the deeper it goes, connecting to hundreds of crimes and perps in that area of time.
    The yellow forgive me letter...where is the link for that one?This one I do not think is ZODIAC himself, but rather a folower who coppied Zodiac(by the tone) I do not think Zodiac is sorry.

    I looked at picture #43 and think it is possible to be a zodiac writting match( I would rate your match a 9.5 of 10. But there are a few Zodiac letters that I am suspicious to be of other authors. Maybe there was a group of killers. I often think there may have been an SLA connections deeper than the public was aware of.
    I have been looking into my suspects hometown data, and found his highschool town had a letter sent from the Zodiac(pleasanton). He is from Oakland, at least his public share dinfo says so. I think this chance of finding this coincidence only fuels my fire and passion thats burning to make this Zodiac pay for what he did to women. I really hope to get in contact with an active detective on this case, but feel that Zodiac has some kind of illusive power that makes him not a top notch priority. (its been 3+ days and no reply)
    A weird movie idea I came across almost seems real...it called the 'Scorpion 7' and how the ZODIAC is a world leader and tyrant making many his slaves,but I never read it or watched it, I just looked at the title and description. Very weird.I suspect many know his real identity and that him and satan are one in the same somehow.


  11. #26
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    BUMP, before you know it, it will be the 47th anniversary of Cheri Jo's Murder. Zodiac Killer or not,I want to see this case solved
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  12. #27
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    Anyone still interested in getting into this. I did get ahold of information on the wounds, etc. and some autopsy info, and everything indicates to me that they were left handed. Or, at least had the knife in their left hand during the attack on her. I can refind the details, and there are many.

  13. #28
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    I would love to know, please share
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  14. #29
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    Cheri Jo Bates: ZODIAC Victim?

    Relative to the Cheri Jo Bates (CJB) case, I can say, unequivocally and confidently, that Ms bates was a victim of the ZODIAC. In fact, the ZODIAC (who calls himself "John") was so obsessed with Ms Bates that detailed letters sent to police, and centered around her murder, were never read.

    There are many, many elements to the Bates homicide that have never been released to the general public. This is their 'validation' information - things that only the killer and the police would know.

    It is primarily Ms Bates case that compelled me to join this forum. I need to understand why John was so obsessed with this young lady.
    :

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagle View Post
    Anyone still interested in getting into this. I did get ahold of information on the wounds, etc. and some autopsy info, and everything indicates to me that they were left handed. Or, at least had the knife in their left hand during the attack on her. I can refind the details, and there are many.

    Please consider stopping by Nikki Benedict's forum... it seems that she too could have been a zodiac victim
    [ame="http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9912996"]CA CA - Nikki Alexandra Benedict, 14, Poway, 1 May 1967 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

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