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  1. #31
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    also, I would really like to see all of the autopsy information + especially to see what knife was used, and whether it was similar to the one that killed Nikki Benedict.

  2. #32
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    Slicky Boy;9908653
    Relative to the Cheri Jo Bates (CJB) case, I can say, unequivocally and confidently, that Ms bates was a victim of the ZODIAC. [B]In fact, [/B]the ZODIAC (who calls himself "John") was so obsessed with Ms Bates that detailed letters sent to police, and centered around her murder, were never read.
    <modsnip>

    I have never been 100% convinced that Bates was a Zodiac victim. Like most serial killers I think many people try to link many unsolved crimes to the Zodiac and some of those, IMO, are real stretches. However, I do conisider Bates to be one of the more realistic attempts to connect the Zodiac. It seems to me it could well have some hallmarks of his crimes when he was possibly still in the early stages of his murderous career. The symbols on the cars, the scary costume, etc. all being effects added later for greater dramatic flair.
    Last edited by Harmony 2; 11-15-2013 at 05:51 PM. Reason: personalizing

  3. #33
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    The Bates Case is a good candidate for Zodiac but, if I was going to handicap it, I would only put the murder at about 40%. The reason I say that is because I don't believe Zodiac mentioned Bates until someone else brought her up and, knowing that he took "pride" in his actions, I would have expected him to mention her in the first communication.
    This my opinion and to the best of my knowledge, that is, if I'm not joking.


    Stan Reid

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by STANDREID View Post
    The Bates Case is a good candidate for Zodiac but, if I was going to handicap it, I would only put the murder at about 40%. The reason I say that is because I don't believe Zodiac mentioned Bates until someone else brought her up and, knowing that he took "pride" in his actions, I would have expected him to mention her in the first communication.
    The fact that the date of her death wasn't put on the car at the Lake Berryessa killing along with the Jensen, Ferrin & Shephard killings, leads me to believe that she was not a Zodiac victim.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonfyree View Post
    The fact that the date of her death wasn't put on the car at the Lake Berryessa killing along with the Jensen, Ferrin & Shephard killings, leads me to believe that she was not a Zodiac victim.
    I have never believed she was a Zodiac Victim. There is a tend among many Zodiac researchers to try to tie any victim that can be made to stretch into possible Zodiac Terriorty, fit.

    I tend to think the Zodiac killings begin and end wih the confirmed attacks. 4 attacks, 3 couples and Stine. Three dead and 2 wounded and an entire State scared spitless at the time. JMO.

    An enduring mystery that I am relatively certain will now never be solved as I believe Zodiac is most likely dead by now.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by chlban View Post
    There is a tend among many Zodiac researchers to try to tie any victim that can be made to stretch into possible Zodiac Terriorty, fit.
    Not all of us try to make every crime 'fit' Zodiac. In the Bates case, we had a letter writer send multiple taunting letters to the newspapers and police, asking that they be published,which fits Zodiac. The letter writer also claims that they made a call to police after the murder,which also fits Zodiac. Bates was murdered with a knife, and Zodiac used a knife at one of his attacks, most people seem to think of him strictly as a shooter at lover's lanes. Most compelling of all, the state writing examiner that handled the Zodiac letters, reviewed the Bates case letters, and desktop poem in the Bates case, and concluded that the bates case writings were "unquestionably" the work of Zodiac. I agree with him. Whether or not, Zodiac killed Bates is up for debate,but I think he defintely wrote the letters in her case, and that is a major clue to his identity. If he did, then the Zodiac had to have been down in Riverside in 66-67,so we can rlikely rule out many suspects that were not
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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by morf13 View Post
    Not all of us try to make every crime 'fit' Zodiac. In the Bates case, we had a letter writer send multiple taunting letters to the newspapers and police, asking that they be published,which fits Zodiac. The letter writer also claims that they made a call to police after the murder,which also fits Zodiac. Bates was murdered with a knife, and Zodiac used a knife at one of his attacks, most people seem to think of him strictly as a shooter at lover's lanes. Most compelling of all, the state writing examiner that handled the Zodiac letters, reviewed the Bates case letters, and desktop poem in the Bates case, and concluded that the bates case writings were "unquestionably" the work of Zodiac. I agree with him. Whether or not, Zodiac killed Bates is up for debate,but I think he defintely wrote the letters in her case, and that is a major clue to his identity. If he did, then the Zodiac had to have been down in Riverside in 66-67,so we can rlikely rule out many suspects that were not
    I agree with this. The other thing that really cinches it for me is that Bates' killer's letters were sent with double postage--two stamps instead of one--and all the subsequent Zodiac letter were double-posted the same way. That is TOO much to be a coincidence. I can agree that it's possible Zodiac didn't kill Bates (though I think he did) but he definitely wrote the letters. His failure to mention the murder on the side of the car at Lake Berryessa only means he did not want that one known to the public--possibly he feared he left behind evidence that could be linked to him or he did not have a strong connection to being Zodiac yet and considered it a non-Zodiac killing, a practice killing, so to speak.

  8. #38
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    I should also point out that DNA test were run on the stamps used on the Riverside letters and a partial profile was extracted that eliminates Arthur Leigh Allen if the letters can be shown to be genuinely from Zodiac.

  9. #39
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    * I do believe that Zodiac may have been one who killed her in that Arthur Leigh Allen... fit the description (at that age) and went to that area on weekends for the races in Riverside, and was there that weekend. He was known to go there a lot. He also missed work, the day after she was killed.

    * Other thing that bothers me is, the supposed ex-boyfriend or guy she had dated and his friend ..... didn't pass the polygraph. The boyfriend passed that he didn't kill her question.... but not if he knew who did, etc. His friend was also missing his watch that light, they saw 2 people searching the area with a flashlight as if they were looking from something that night (time frame after she had been killed).

    * Autopsy; I'm sure I can find it again and link it. Defensive wounds on her right hand, suggesting the attacker had the knife in their left hand. Other stab wounds in right shoulder, they had the knife in their left hand. On the left of her back , a stab wound or more... and they thought the attacker was behind her at that point, so again ... knife in left hand. Then he cut her throat, all suggests from behind ...... and almost cut her head completely off of her. The deepest point and cut that nearly took her head off, were on the right side..... and less so on the very left side.... again, that supports cutting someone's throat while behind them that are left handed .

    Arthur Leigh Allen .... was always said to be able to use 'both' hands equally as well, but tended to use his left when doing things or working with knifes, etc. and his right hand to do most writing (but not always ... could write with both hands).

    Other thing .... most serial killers do NOT want to discuss, admit to , or talk about their first killing. The one that took them over to the darkside , so to speak and more personal. So, if it was Zodiak, , Cheri could have been his first victim. Also... Leigh worked at service station working on cars, was known for working on corvairs, VW's, etc. Ironically, she worked at a Mall not that far from Riverside Race Track, and her house was in that area as well. Leigh also took some "classes" at Riverside College for his continuous education requirements.

    The ex-guy that she went out with ... his friend, Arthur Leigh, a weird guy that attended school there that made comments when he got ticked off at a girl .... and told her he killed Bates and could kill her too, and I'm sure others could be suspect. Those stand out to me.

    Cheri bothers me.... that they didn't / couldn't get it pinned down.

    If , as said in an earlier posts, there were other letters to Police with details , etc.. that were never said or released.... that seems very key. Especially if they were included information about her killing, etc.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omori View Post
    I should also point out that DNA test were run on the stamps used on the Riverside letters and a partial profile was extracted that eliminates Arthur Leigh Allen if the letters can be shown to be genuinely from Zodiac.
    That's what I also thought, that he didn't match the DNA. And if the letters weren't by the real Zodiac killer, than everyone's been following a false lead all along.

    If they are real, Zodiac isn't the only killer to send letters and notes to taunt the police.

    Maybe he heard about Cheri Jo Bates murder and the letters (which were a couple of years before his first known victim) and decided to use them himself.


  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonfyree View Post
    That's what I also thought, that he didn't match the DNA. And if the letters weren't by the real Zodiac killer, than everyone's been following a false lead all along.

    If they are real, Zodiac isn't the only killer to send letters and notes to taunt the police.

    Maybe he heard about Cheri Jo Bates murder and the letters (which were a couple of years before his first known victim) and decided to use them himself.
    I don't believe Allen was the Zodiac, so whether or not the DNA matches wouldn't have any relevance for me. As I have stated, I don't think Bates was a Zodiac victim. However, I think it is quite possible, even probable, that Zodiac sent the letters. By that point he was bragging to the police that his kills were much higher than those being attributed to him, so I am not real surprised that he take credit for an unsolved killing.

    If that is the case, it would likely indicate some type of connection to Southern CA since I don't think the Bates murder was highly publicized state wide.

  12. #42
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    This month is the 50th anniversary of Cheri Jo's murder-R.I.P.

    Her slaying seems almost too depraved to be Zodiac's first murder but who can say for sure.
    This my opinion and to the best of my knowledge, that is, if I'm not joking.


    Stan Reid

  13. #43
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    Although I'm doubtful about Cheri Jo being a Zodiac victim, one thing that moves me a little closer in that direction is that she was driving a rear engine car-a Volkswagen Beetle. At a time when I don't think even 5% of the cars on the road were rear engine, Bates, Ferrin/Mageau (Corvair) and Hartnell/Shepard (Volkswagen Karman Ghia) were all in rear engine cars. That would be three out of the first four attacks if Bates was a Zodiac victim.
    This my opinion and to the best of my knowledge, that is, if I'm not joking.


    Stan Reid

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by STANDREID View Post
    Although I'm doubtful about Cheri Jo being a Zodiac victim, one thing that moves me a little closer in that direction is that she was driving a rear engine car-a Volkswagen Beetle. At a time when I don't think even 5% of the cars on the road were rear engine, Bates, Ferrin/Mageau (Corvair) and Hartnell/Shepard (Volkswagen Karman Ghia) were all in rear engine cars. That would be three out of the first four attacks if Bates was a Zodiac victim.
    I wouldn't think it would be against all cars on the road, but what kind of cars high school and college age kids were driving at the time. And in the 60's Volkswagens were very popular among that age group, as they were a relatively cheap car. So maybe rare against the entire population but not within that age group.

  15. #45
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    I read at one time, for a period :Shepard also attended Riverside, at a time the Cheri Bates was there.

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