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  1. #106
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    Okay...

    The object of the experiment was several fold... Is CC right/left/ambi. AND with which hand and/or arm is he dominant.

    Determining this should help investigators and the trial with a number of things. What do we think? What can we come up with?

    CC's right forearm was injured with that which is noted as a red mark (abrasion) and scratches ([ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3859888&postcount=21"]per a post I made earlier[/ame]). IF he were right hand or, really, right arm dominant and IF he were to do a choke hold to subdue and drop a victim (i.e. to cause them to pass out, so that he could then apply a ligature), I believe it is right forearm that would get abraded/scratched as the victim reached up to curl their fingers around and dig to try to pull the arm away.

    In fact, I talked to my husband today, without leading with either "arm" I bent both arms upward and said, "Understanding that a choke hold is done using one arm" (I didn't want him thinking using the hands), "I want you to approach me as if to do a chokehold." I turned my back to my husband who immediately honored my request. Of course, dang those men they play harder than we women! He never thinks he hurts when wrestling or tickling either. BUT...good enough, as soon as he started to apply pressure -- both of my hands were up with my fingers scooped into his forearm ("Sheesh dude, I only said 'approach me' -- I didn't say "apply" anything.) Of course, he immediately hugged me and said that he would NEVER do anything to harm me (and he has proven that in nearly 41 years) -- BUT I'm glad he played like a guy -- because I really got the forearm possibility.

    SO...IMO, it is possible that the right forearm injury "might" have come from a victim groping, scratching, to pull that arm away. On the other hand, which direction did the scratches go on that forearm?

    Paint trajectory... If a rightie, or leftie picks up a spray paint can and begins spraying letters on a wall, there is probably a different pattern to how the spray hits the wall or a bedsheet. Consider that the hand is not generally angled with the point of the sprayer directly toward the wall. If you are like me, you would spray paint on a wall as if the wall was a paper laying directly in front of you, i.e. not as if you lift your right or left arm up directly to your right or left side and angle the hole of the sprayer squarely to the wall. In other words, the mist coming from the right of the sprayer -- as opposed to the main stream (if right handed), or the left (if left handed) would fall more heavily to the right or left of the letters you write, accordingly.

    On the other hand... IF someone wanted to throw another person off, they might use their opposite hand to attempt their writing -- and this might be noted as well, how "apt" was that particular hand at doing something.

    I might think that spraying downward, onto sheets, might prove a more notable pattern of right or left handedness... AND I might think that maybe it would be a bit more frenzied (maybe the murderer would not think about using their "other hand" with a victim lying there.)

    So...there is the pattern of thinking... There are the injuries to the right forearm (how did that occur and why) AND then the spray painting. There might be other things as well, as in IF there was a knot in a ligature, would a right handed person make it one way, and a left handed person make it another (the opposite?)
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    W


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  3. #107

    Post

    Quote Originally Posted by Lindadanette View Post
    YouTube - Joyce Meyer Fan is Excited

    Forward to about 1:10 and get ready to pause - notice the chick in the red sweater "helping" CC? This video was either taken at the borders in Winter Park or Barnes & Noble in Ft Lauderdale on May 1st, 2008. CC was in Florida then and I'm just about willing to bet the farm that he and MM started the "trouble a year ago" back then.

    Orlando is just an hour and a half drive from the Tampa Bay area. I've gone to a JMM in Orlando myself.

    http://www.joycemeyer.org/jmmweb/jmm...book-tour.aspx
    Good evening all.

    Just wanted to step out of lurking for a moment to clarify that the employee in the sweater you all discussed as possibly being Tara Lintz is not Tara. She's an employee of JMM. And this is indeed from JM's Florida trip. :-) I don't ever have much help to give but I'll throw in what I do know when I can.

    I have to say that I was underwhelmed by yesterday's preliminary hearing. Other than Chris making himself look more guilty and more like a moron, there wasn't anything enormous that shook up what we know. I was surprised by just how closely Chris was working with the Detective across the street. I have to imagine that the way that we all feel about this case is exponentially multiplied and permanently burned in the mind of this poor guy. I think it shows a person of strong character to be able to work this case having been as close to the deception as he was (by no fault of his own) and I think we should all pray for him (in addition to all of the LE working this case) and that the "family emergency" that called him away an hour before the hearing yesterday has been resolved in a positive way.

    Best to all of you and, as always, thanks for all that you do here.



  4. #108
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    Hello SouthernIllinoisMan,

    Thanks for your help... I agree, the det living across the street from CC can use our prayers. I can't imagine how he feels knowing that CC sucked him into his pathetic and wicked charade, then killed Sheri and the children, with this man sitting there knowing of the stinking charade, having done something towards helping against a possible threatmeister (setting up surveillance, you can't do much more until you can i.e. when something is proven), but probably feeling fairly helpless unless he could prove CC as the threatmeister in the first place. My gut is that he felt it was CC in the first place.

    One of my first feelings in this case was about just how incredibly deeply hurt, pained and angry I would be if I had been the neighborhood officer contacted by CC about the threats (used by a murderer). I felt that if it had been me, I would have had a gut feeling that the threats were from Chris, but would do what I could to "believe" and protect that family.

    I hope that officer is getting counseling, and/or that he is strong of mind and spirit in dealing with this. And...to that det, I would say, "You have my heart buddy, you did what you could, no guilt for you -- go get him."
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    W


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  6. #109
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    people of the lie

    Quote Originally Posted by Lindadanette View Post
    I think you pointed out something that may be pathologically telling - I couldn't tell what hand CC favors, because he was so accommodating to JM. It appears that he's well trained to "keep out of the way" and the long smoldering resentment may have turned into a cat and mouse game in his mind. He watches JM's every move and uses the hand that appears to be "least intrusive". What other behaviors might that kind of hatred spawn??
    It's interesting you mention this. When someone w NPD (and presumably sociopathy) is made to feel subservient or "less than" I think there are such strong feelings of humiliation, and their fierce pride so wounded there's a strong likelihood of them developing a tremendous loathing, scorn and hatred that seethes beneath the surface, for their "oppressor." I knew a man whose family had actually for generations been in a servile role under "rule" of an affluent family. Just as you describe, he'd learned to anticipate every need, want and desire of the woman for whom he was a live-in caregiver. Resentment grew to loathing, which grew to contempt, the contempt to scorn, and then to deep, bitter hatred. Yet all masked beneath a thin guise of obsequisous false humility. A master of deception it was twisted, for sure. Wouldn't surprise me if there has been not only bogus threats but genuine, intense resentment by CC toward JM--JMM, even the church as a whole, and organized religion in general. It isn't hard to imagine that his father, pressure to represent the family, and to play the part within the religious community may have also contributed to that. But CC also feared JM and knew which side his bread was buttered on thus couldn't destroy the first object of his loathing so instead made himself 'indispensable." Even as he reached the chilling conclusion that it was his family who was expendable. He deceived everyone, concealing it so well. Until all that hatred finally imploded, eventually consuming him, and destroying everyone who ever really cared about him.


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  8. #110
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    Hello ******,

    You wrote:
    >>I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous! <<

    Cool, can I have your right arm? I know it is very good with "figurin" and I could use another good right arm around here!
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    W


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  10. #111
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    I see your train of thought Wrinkles. If CC incapacitated them with his right arm across their neck in a downward force, while looping the ligature around the neck with the left hand, even asleep, I guess the reaction would be to come awake and intinctively claw at the force which is on their neck, the right arm.


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  12. #112
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    Ewwwwwwwwww Kiki,

    Nice new word "obsequisous" [sic] -- actually "obsequious" I have never heard that word, cool! Thanks for the new word.

    I thought about the possibility of how CC might have really hated the position of being "guard" who might have felt to be useful or have been asked to "make himself useful" while standing guard. I mean do you just stand there all day, or do you interact, or are you asked to interact, i.e. I'm paying you, do what you can to assist along the way. Some people like to be more than useful -- hey, I'm here, you are paying me, give me something to do. Some do not like the position of servitude -- but guess what, when you are employed, you are servant to your employer -- don't like it, save your dough and/or just get the h**l out and create your own deal (this takes courage).

    Very interesting story you told (very interesting how you told it too!)...a story which I'm sure could be written up in a book. I would like to hear what eventually happened to this person who grew to loathing. PM me with more if you have the time!

    So...did years of guard duty and feeling like you had to "protect a woman" (when maybe you had little respect for women in the first place) just so piss CC off that he was going to not only take out the vibrant woman in his life, but her offspring (forgetting they were his too?) Ummm, while using another woman...
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    W


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  14. #113
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    Red face

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrinkles View Post
    Okay all,

    I started to list the things we know that are indisputable -- then I thought about what we do not yet know...

    Question for those who were in court yesterday... Was the injury on Chris' arm noted as an "abrasion" or was it a "cut" (as one newsreporter said in a video after the prelim.)

    I'm sure there is a photo of it, if what we heard was true that they photo'd CC's body after the fact (May 5th). I'm also sure it was "noticeable" as the police saw it and asked CC about it, as did his dad. Now then, just what did the injury look like -- how big was it (where exactly was it located), could it have "dripped blood" -- abrasions may ooze or, if very big/deep, drip blood, but they are usually (in my estimation) less likely to do so than a cut (which can pour blood).

    AHA, some info...from page 5 of SW document:

    >>ISP-205 Two swabs of reddish injury on the suspect's right forearm sealed in a cardboard box

    ISP-206 Two swabs of scratches on the suspect's right forearm, sealed in a a cardboard box<<

    Reddish injury sounds like an abrasion (a scuff of some sort). Scratches could be gouges, cuts as in cut (slices) with fingernails OR cut with wire (have we definitely learned what the ligatures were made of?)

    I feel sure that they took fingernail clippings of the victims -- was Chris' skin beneath their nails? OR a ligature, was it wire (not cord) that could have cut Chris? How might Chris have received this/these injuries.

    Oh I would really like to see photos of these injuries to start thinking...

    Also, I wish I knew if Chris were right or left handed. Hmm...can we figure that out from the StarBucks coffee clip video?

    NOW THEN, remember we heard something about a piece of mattress with blood on it that was cut away -- we saw that in one of the SW's I believe.

    Uh huh, here, page 20:

    >>ISP-607 sealed envelope containing piece of cloth cut from mattress in master bedroom with rbls.<<

    Was this an older or "fresh" blood stain, and my bet is that it was "fresh."

    We do not know so far, to my knowledge, what the injuries were to Sheri, i.e. whether she had bled at all. We do know about something on Chris. Is it possible that whatever was showing on his arm had bled and that was found on the mattress?
    Well, the mr cehif of police called it and "abrasion" on his arm. He didn't say which arm it was on as far as my mind can remember..


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  16. #114
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    Hello Knox,

    THANKS! I have been hoping to get the big brains in here thinking on this one... That arm injury is important, in my estimation. Of course, it could be cross linked to fingernails of the deceased -- but your take has "expanded" the thinking...

    Quote Originally Posted by Knox View Post
    I see your train of thought Wrinkles. If CC incapacitated them with his right arm across their neck in a downward force, while looping the ligature around the neck with the left hand, even asleep, I guess the reaction would be to come awake and intinctively claw at the force which is on their neck, the right arm.
    My thinking was, maybe originally he first went to Sheri and caught her off guard with the chokehold (which she fought with fingers/nails), then passed out -- then he did the ligature (but we really need more info on that which was found.) But -- as I add to my thinking with yours -- why couldn't daddy have gone in to his sleeping kids and put his arm around them (as if to give them a trusted loving arm snuggle, without their question -- daddy has always been safe), then do precisely what you wrote.

    IF this was ligature, as we have been told so far, he had to get that ligature around them someway -- and he probably wanted to do that with the least amount of noise. Did Chris disarm all of his victims with unconsciousness through a chokehold first? Which arm would he have used for that, and would that be the reason for his right forearm injury?

    There are right and left dominant people everywhere... It might have been convenient if he were left dominant and that statistic could have worked against him, but either way, a dominance with one arm or another and then defensive wounds to that arm seems important.

    Thanks for "braining" this one!
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    W


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  18. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrinkles View Post
    Ewwwwwwwwww Kiki,

    Nice new word "obsequisous" [sic] -- actually "obsequious" I have never heard that word, cool! Thanks for the new word.

    I thought about the possibility of how CC might have really hated the position of being "guard" who might have felt to be useful or have been asked to "make himself useful" while standing guard. I mean do you just stand there all day, or do you interact, or are you asked to interact, i.e. I'm paying you, do what you can to assist along the way. Some people like to be more than useful -- hey, I'm here, you are paying me, give me something to do. Some do not like the position of servitude -- but guess what, when you are employed, you are servant to your employer -- don't like it, save your dough and/or just get the h**l out and create your own deal (this takes courage).

    Very interesting story you told (very interesting how you told it too!)...a story which I'm sure could be written up in a book. I would like to hear what eventually happened to this person who grew to loathing. PM me with more if you have the time!

    So...did years of guard duty and feeling like you had to "protect a woman" (when maybe you had little respect for women in the first place) just so piss CC off that he was going to not only take out the vibrant woman in his life, but her offspring (forgetting they were his too?) Ummm, while using another woman...
    ITA yes there seems to be a "theme" here, dare I say (or spell) mysogyny...?


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  20. #116
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    I assumed they were asleep at the moment of attack. If they were sleeping on thier back or side (facing right or left), my theory would work I think. If sleeping on their stomach would it also apply? I am a visual person so this is a disturbing thought exercise. I think you assumed they were awake, which is even MORE disturbing!!!


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  22. #117
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    I remember we discussed plastic at some point - was that rumor or speculation? Is it possible he slipped plastic bags over their faces and then the ligatures?


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  24. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by kiki the parrot View Post
    ITA yes there seems to be a "theme" here, dare I say (or spell) mysogyny...?
    Wish we knew more about the relationship between RC & Connie. My hubby is extremely considerate of his mother and is also a wonderful husband and father. Sure there are numerous studies that link "objectifying" women with the mother/father relationship in the home you were raised in.


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  26. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knox View Post
    Wish we knew more about the relationship between RC & Connie. My hubby is extremely considerate of his mother and is also a wonderful husband and father. Sure there are numerous studies that link "objectifying" women with the mother/father relationship in the home you were raised in.
    Maybe fmrchesterguy or soillinoisman would have a contact to answer that?


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  28. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by who knew? View Post
    I remember we discussed plastic at some point - was that rumor or speculation? Is it possible he slipped plastic bags over their faces and then the ligatures?
    Disturbing thought ... Guess we will have to wait until the trial to see those type of details come out. Where did that info come from?


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