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Thread: NY -Did Son of Sam Act Alone?

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    NY -Did Son of Sam Act Alone?

    I really had not read or watched much about the Son of Sam until I watched a show this weekend about him and did some research afterwards. I think there does seem to be some validity to the idea that Berkowitz might have been just one cog in a wheel and that he did not commit all the murders.

    All the articles below outline the crimes and go into the theory that there was more than one killer. David claims he was part of a cult and that he was present at all the killings but only committed three of them. Eye witness accounts of the killer vary pretty wildly. If you read the letters Son of Sam sent to the Daily News and left for LE they refer to a bigger picture. Many of Sam's victims and victims parents believe there were more than one killers that summer and that David took the fall for all of them. The DA believes there is more to the story and the case was reopened in Yonkers.

    I am not saying I believe it but I do think it is an interesting idea and it seems plausible. I am sure some of you know a lot more about the case than I do. I am learning. I look forward to your input and any other links.


    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5351509/

    http://www.nydailynews.com/features/...m/mystery.html

    http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/s.../letter_1.html
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    Sure, now I have to go dig out my copies of John Douglas' Mind Hunter and Journey into Darkness and re-read his interviews and thoughts on Berkowitz...Thanks Gaia, not like I was busy enough already

    Seriously though, Douglas (a pioneer of the FBI's profiling program) discusses the Son of Sam murders at length, including his interviews with Berkowitz. Both books are well worth reading.

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    Shadowangel - somehow I knew you were going to post on this thread.......
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    My vote is NO..

    He could been a look-out for some of his friends..

    But he could kill a couple but not all..... my own personal thoughts..

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    It is interesting that the two brothers Berkowitz named as being part of the cult and present at the killings both end up dead from alleged homicides.

    http://hubpages.com/hub/David_Berkowitz_Or_Son_Of_Sam
    Berkowitz also claimed to have been a Satanist at the time of the murders, and suggested that he did not act alone in the killings: he was part of an occult group that sacrificed animals to Satan and ran a child pornography racket. Though he claimed to be innocent of murder, Berkowitz said his involvement in other crimes should see him imprisoned for the rest of his life. He said that he was not the "Son Of Sam" shooter, but merely one of the many look-out men. He named John "Wheaties" Carr as one of the shooters, as well as Carr's brother, Michael, whom he claimed to be the shooter in the Queens disco shooting, Sam being the name of their father. John Carr lived in a house behind that of Berkowitz, and owned the labrador retriever that Berkowitz had claimed to be a "high demon". John Carr was killed in February of 1978 in a shooting in North Dakota (ruled a suicide), and Michael Carr was killed in a traffic accident in October 1979 in Manhattan's West Side Highway. Although Berkowitz did mention other names of alleged cult members in some interviews, he said he could not reveal any more details because it would endanger his family.
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    He was on a lot of drugs at the time he made his wild claims of cult activity..I've never believed that part. He definitely could have taken the fall for some he didn't commit, and it's a good idea to re-look at the case to see if this could be possible. IIRC, some of the murders didn't seem to fit the supposed MO of the SOS.
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    I saw that same show on TV the other day, and don't know about the case, but something he said in his interview makes me think that Berkowitz is a big liar and not as much of a Christian as he now claims to be. I'd have to listen again and get his exact quote, but it was the way he described and said something about Satanism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by txsvicki View Post
    I saw that same show on TV the other day, and don't know about the case, but something he said in his interview makes me think that Berkowitz is a big liar and not as much of a Christian as he now claims to be. I'd have to listen again and get his exact quote, but it was the way he described and said something about Satanism.
    Maury Terry in his book The Ultimate Evil tries to link a bunch of murders including the Manson slayings and Son of Sam shootings to the same satanist cults. The problem with this theory is that the Satanist cults he mentioned, well, let's just say there was no way they had the power or the influence to commit all these murders and get away with it. The organized Satanist cults in the US are not the ones you have to worry about, it's the renegade weirdos who think they have something to prove who are dangerous. People seem to like to throw around the word Satanist because it automatically strikes fear into some people.

    As for Berkowitz being in a group who were all killers, I find that hard to believe because I don't think there is any evidence pointing to anyone else except for eyewitness testimony, which is notoriously unreliable.

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    I saw an interview with Berkowitz talking about the 'cult' and saying they had secret locations all over the country, are moving around constantly as to not keep their identity hidden and they have the ability to pack up and 'vanish.' It was a little much.
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    IMO Maury Terry tries to hard to lump all satanic activity together. Many teenagers draw satanic symbols and words on buildings. Most of his info on the process church of the final judgement was taken from the book The Family by Ed Sanders. When Sanders had his book first published he was sucessfully sued by the process group and Sanders lost and had to remove all references to the process church from his book. The only reason Terry wasn't sued is because when Terry wrote the book the process church didn't exist anymore. With that said, I do believe both Carr brothers were involved. I saw on a show that said all the furniture was removed a week before Berkowitz was arrested. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but, didn't Berkowitz also say that Roy Radin and William Mentzer were also involved? I wonder if anyone has talked to Mentzer about this because he is still alive and easy to find because he is serving LWOP. Also didn't Berkowitz say this "cult" was behind the Arliss Perry murder? I think the son of sam case is still considered open. IMO there are many hinky things about the son of sam murder case but I don't feel that it was as elaborate as Berkowitz and Terry are trying to have everyone believe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyla4 View Post
    IMO Maury Terry tries to hard to lump all satanic activity together. Many teenagers draw satanic symbols and words on buildings. Most of his info on the process church of the final judgement was taken from the book The Family by Ed Sanders. When Sanders had his book first published he was sucessfully sued by the process group and Sanders lost and had to remove all references to the process church from his book. The only reason Terry wasn't sued is because when Terry wrote the book the process church didn't exist anymore. With that said, I do believe both Carr brothers were involved. I saw on a show that said all the furniture was removed a week before Berkowitz was arrested. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but, didn't Berkowitz also say that Roy Radin and William Mentzer were also involved? I wonder if anyone has talked to Mentzer about this because he is still alive and easy to find because he is serving LWOP. Also didn't Berkowitz say this "cult" was behind the Arliss Perry murder? I think the son of sam case is still considered open. IMO there are many hinky things about the son of sam murder case but I don't feel that it was as elaborate as Berkowitz and Terry are trying to have everyone believe.
    I agree with you. I don't remember if it was Berkowitz or Terry who stated that the Arliss Perry murder was connected, but there was supposedly a connection to the cult in her murder, too, because of the ritualistic nature. Four Pi was the other church I think he mentioned. Really, if you knew much about either you would know that they are not dangerous and at the time fought more among themselves than anything. Now if you slam the OTO who some think is a satanist organization, you will get sued. And if you don't have the evidence to back up your claims, they will win.


    The Carr brothers may have had something to do with it, I agree with that also. I believe one of the brothers looked like the police sketch that looked nothing like Berkowitz, IIRC. (I really need to go back and read my old books!)

    I wish Berkowitz would come forward with the truth. Maybe he was duped by the Carr brothers into thinking he was part of some huge conspiracy of satanism so he had to take the fall for others. Maybe he was convinced that if he told, he would be killed. Whether that makes him mentally ill or just gullible, I'm not sure.

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    I think the witness reports of the killer of Stacy Moscowitz and the timing re/ Berkowitz's parking ticket preclude him acting alone.
    Ive never felt it was the result of some huge conspiracy,just four of five sickos borrowing liberally form a variety of snuff oriented sources.
    They may have well been a splinter group of a larger cult.
    I have no doubt whatsoever that the Carr brothers were responsible for pulling the trigger on some of the killings.
    Maury Terry's book is probably the definitive work on the case though it is much maligned by Scientologists and the "Satanism Is merely a Benign Nature Worshiping Pagan Religion And If You Disagree With That Your A Bigot" crowd.
    Though I have yet to see any of the conclusions that his research led to debunked specificly by any of them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kline View Post
    I think the witness reports of the killer of Stacy Moscowitz and the timing re/ Berkowitz's parking ticket preclude him acting alone.
    Ive never felt it was the result of some huge conspiracy,just four of five sickos borrowing liberally form a variety of snuff oriented sources.
    They may have well been a splinter group of a larger cult.
    I have no doubt whatsoever that the Carr brothers were responsible for pulling the trigger on some of the killings.
    Maury Terry's book is probably the definitive work on the case though it is much maligned by Scientologists and the "Satanism Is merely a Benign Nature Worshiping Pagan Religion And If You Disagree With That Your A Bigot" crowd.
    Though I have yet to see any of the conclusions that his research led to debunked specificly by any of them.
    Um, I know no one who thinks that Satanism is a form of benign paganism. They're hedonists if anything. Plus, there are many forms of organized Satanism and many other groups, such as the OTO, that are lumped in with Satanist organizations. One of the reasons that his conclusions have not been debunked by any of the groups is because some of the groups, such as The Process, were no longer in existence by the time he wrote the book. As for Scientology, anything goes because those folks are crazy. (Just my opinion.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by kline View Post
    I think the witness reports of the killer of Stacy Moscowitz and the timing re/ Berkowitz's parking ticket preclude him acting alone.
    Ive never felt it was the result of some huge conspiracy,just four of five sickos borrowing liberally form a variety of snuff oriented sources.
    They may have well been a splinter group of a larger cult.
    I have no doubt whatsoever that the Carr brothers were responsible for pulling the trigger on some of the killings.
    Maury Terry's book is probably the definitive work on the case though it is much maligned by Scientologists and the "Satanism Is merely a Benign Nature Worshiping Pagan Religion And If You Disagree With That Your A Bigot" crowd.
    Though I have yet to see any of the conclusions that his research led to debunked specificly by any of them.
    I agree, most especially on the 4 being a huge part. It's even possible that, since Berkowitz was on drugs, that they concocted the cult theory, even staging elaborate things to show him to make him think he was in on a cult thing and if he ever really explained things he would be putting people, and himself, in danger.
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    Here is a page I found showing the "Lost Son of Sam letters". These letters really show what a delusional nut Berkowitz really is. He is also a manipulative S.O.B. http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/s...s/1_index.html I now think the Carr brothers were probably not involved and there was no cult.

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    Conversely Berkowitz, also known as the "Son of Sam," writes letters in a remorseful tone. Since killing six people in the late 1970s, he has found God and become a born again Christian. He devotes his time in prison to helping mentally unstable patients and performing community service. He asked the state not to grant him parole, because he now knows what he did was wrong, and believes he's where he should be: prison, according to Bonn. Berkowitz's message is one of hope, redemption and service to others.

    Read more: http://articles.businessinsider.com/...#ixzz1qnoeGnb6
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    I always thought it interesting that one of the Carr brothers is in fact a dead ringer for one of the composites of the shooter in one attack.
    Based on virtually all the eyewitness accounts of the Moscowitz shooter I dont think there is any possibilty of Berkowitz being the attacker in that one. Even minus the timing of his documented presence that night.
    I think Maury Terry kind of got hit with the backlash of the Cult Hysteria of the 80's where there were all these mentallly ill folks going on Phill Donahough and Geraldo claiming the were breeders for Human sacrifice crazy Covens and so forth.
    And of course all kind of 'experts' sprung up declaring 'Cult Activity' every place some kid spray painted 'OZZY RULES!!!!' on a freeway abuttment.
    Having said that having worked in Correctional Facilities and the Mental Health industry I can tell you there are many sick individuals who take the occult and their own interpretations of 'Devil Worship' or 'The Worship Of Evil'very seriously indeed and many of these folks are prone to and quite capable of predatory violence,and in many cases have long history of it.

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    I still have vivid memories of the Summer of Sam... I lived near one of the victims and I was 16 at the time. And I have bone chilling memories of hanging out at Untermyer Park, seeing the graffiti and the strange folks there... Before ever having read Terry's book The Ultimate Evil. I think there was more than one killer, and The Carrs are the likely ones IMHO. But I do think Maury Terry took things way too far. The NYPD wanted this case closed ASAP which I believe was too hasty... and I am glad they reopened it. But it has been reopened for quite awhile, with no reports of any progress.... So I think it's not going anywhere. And the Carrs are dead anyhow. Oh well.
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    Maury Terry made a pretty good case for a conspiracy but he trashed out all of his credibility when he tried to link "Son of Sam" and the "Cotton Club Murders".

    I knew someone who was close to the investigation and he told me that Berkowitz acted "perfectly normal" before and after his arrest and that his apartment, that was empty of all furniture but the walls were we covered with bizarre writing at the time of his arrest, had been furnished, clean and "normal" a few days earlier. Faking insanity does not prove conspiracy but it does give Terry a little credibility.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HesterMofet View Post
    Maury Terry in his book The Ultimate Evil tries to link a bunch of murders including the Manson slayings and Son of Sam shootings to the same satanist cults. The problem with this theory is that the Satanist cults he mentioned, well, let's just say there was no way they had the power or the influence to commit all these murders and get away with it. The organized Satanist cults in the US are not the ones you have to worry about, it's the renegade weirdos who think they have something to prove who are dangerous. People seem to like to throw around the word Satanist because it automatically strikes fear into some people.

    As for Berkowitz being in a group who were all killers, I find that hard to believe because I don't think there is any evidence pointing to anyone else except for eyewitness testimony, which is notoriously unreliable.
    I like Terry's book and I think it's possible that a cult did/does exist. I'm also wondering if that cult could be responsible for the murders of college students found in rivers.

    I may have to dig Terry's book out and reread it, if I still have it.
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    I believe there were others involved.The eyewitnesses in the DeMasi-Lomino attack alone, prove that.Not only did the two surviving victims describe a Blonde man in an army jacket as the shooter, but another witness who saw him running from the scene, with gun in hand, also described the same assailant. berkowitz claims it was John Carr who did that shooting, and the composite drawing strongly resembles him.

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    Hmmmm, I had no idea this thread was here. I was born and raised in yonkers, just a few blocks from where David Berkowitz lived. My friend was a lifeguard at the pool in his building. We spent a lot of time at that building the summer of Sam. I saw David several times in passing.
    It's been a really long time since I read any of the info so the detail are sketchy but man it was freaky to know he was sooooo close.
    Last edited by SugarQueen; 05-15-2013 at 09:11 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SugarQueen View Post
    Hmmmm, I had no idea this thread was here. I was born and raised in yonkers, just a few blocks from where David Berkowitz lived. My friend was a lifeguard at the pool in his building. We spent a lot of time at that building the summer of Sam. I saw David several times in passing.
    It's been a really long time since I read any of the info so the detail are sketchy but man it was freaky to know he was sooooo close.
    Thats so interesting, have you ever read 'The Ultimate Evil' by Maury Terry?
    Goes into great detail about what was going on in Yonkers during that period.Some of the others, believed to have helped Berkowitz, all lived around that same area.

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    He definitely did NOT act alone. No way. No how.

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    I lived in the area at the time. Followed Maury Terry when he wrote as investigative journalist in local paper. Had close friends who lived nearby and on the aqueduct. I heard many first hand stories.

    The 2 Carr brothers both died mysteriously. I read his book Ultimate evil, and creeped me out so bad that I had to remove it from my home.

    IMO, DB was the fall guy.



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