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  1. #1
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    Tracy Neef murder sounds oddly familiar

    All I know of Tracy Neef's death is contained in this post, I do not have any additional information. Reading her death it sounds rather familiar.

    http://blogs.denverpost.com/coldcase...off-at-school/

    We know that Dennis Raider of BTK fame in Witchita the self-proclaimed "BTK killer" (BTK is a self-imposed moniker standing for "Bind, Torture, and Kill"). He confessed in 2005 to the serial killing of 10 people in the Wichita, Kansas area from 1974 to 1991.

    I know there are copyright issues so I'll post her death


    Tracy was found lying sideways with her knees bent together and her hands lying palm down on her belly.
    Her school supplies were scattered around her body.
    “It appeared like she was placed there and not thrown there,” Parker said.
    Tracy had a scratch on her right cheek and one above her left eye that appeared to be caused by a fingernail. The marks may have been caused as the kidnapper tried to control Tracy after pulling her into his car.
    Tracy had ligature marks on both wrists indicating she had been tied with a rope or cord, Parker said. Some rapists and killers carry abduction tools like rope with them in their cars, he said.
    She waswearing her jeans and t-shirt.
    It was a key piece of evidence along with other signs that Tracy may have died before the kidnapper could sexually assault her, Parker said.
    A ligature mark on her right chin that may have been caused by a coat strap is another clue. While trying to silence Tracy, the killer may have tied her coat so tightly above her mouth that she could not breathe, he said. While her kidnapper may have intended to kill Tracy from the moment he saw her, killing her may have been an act of desparation or a mistake, Parker said.
    Tracy’s autopsy later showed that she died of asphyxiation, Parker said.
    Although there were signs that Tracy was molested, the attacker did not remove her clothes or rape her, indications the kidnapper may have changed his plans after killing the girl prematurely, Parker said.
    The fact that Tracy’s body was left so close to a well-traveled road, Highway 119, may indicate the killer panicked and quickly disposed of the body.


    All this child killer had to do is keep the body, then send a letter to Neef's demanding a ransom, and we have a Jonbenet like situation here. What-if, this child killer sent a RN to the Neef's? This murder allows us to test out RDI objections -- many RDI questions to JB could apply equally to Neef. What would you say was the motive? If the motive of kidnapping for ransom why did he dispose the body? If the motive was sexual assault, why did he not do more and then dispose of the body? Why dispose the body in a highly trafficked area? If Neef's wrist and mouth were bound, what would be the reason to kill her and throw away her supplies? And the placing of the body sounds like staging? Or some psychological symbol?

    As this case was never solved, this killer was free to kill again. And Neef was a 7 y/o wf. JB 6 AND beauty pageant.




  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by voynich
    This murder allows us to test out RDI objections -- many RDI questions to JB could apply equally to Neef.
    Like what, specifically?

    Sounds more like what happened to Sarah Cherry to me.
    I'm as mad as HELL and I'm NOT gonna take it anymore!.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperDave View Post
    Like what, specifically?

    Sounds more like what happened to Sarah Cherry to me.
    RDI Objections include:

    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
    The RN is contradictory as well. It seems to be a "ransom for money" kidnapping, yet they also seem to be trying to portray themselves as targeting JR's daughter because of the country his business serves. Then they say the respect his business.
    No child, dead or alive= no $$$. Why kill her and leave the body behind?
    If you are targeting this child because of her father's business- why ask for ransom?
    Quote Originally Posted by akashana View Post
    I'm weighing cautiously in on this one by saying that to me what cinches it is the alleged kidnappers could gain nothing by leaving JB's battered body in the cellar. If it's money they want, they have to get the kid or the corpse, whatever it may be in whatever circumstances, O-U-T of the house to avoid discovery. A dead JB does not equal money. And the RN (a central premise) indicates that money is the ultimate goal. Therefore, it makes utterly no sense to leave a dead JB behind. All their success depends on the Rs not discovering their daughter is dead, as then no money will be paid. A corpse starts stinking in just a few days. Discovery would be imminent, even if the location wasn't discovered by the Rs or LE.

    So the corpse in the cellar points only to the Ramseys, IMHO.



    What would you say was the motive? If the motive of kidnapping for ransom why did he dispose the body? If the motive was sexual assault, why did he not do more and then dispose of the body? Why dispose the body in a highly trafficked area? If Neef's wrist and mouth were bound, what would be the reason to kill her and throw away her supplies? And the placing of the body sounds like staging? Or some psychological symbol?

    Although there were signs that Tracy was molested, the attacker did not remove her clothes or rape her, indications the kidnapper


    This killer kidnapped Tracy, killed her, and dumped her body and apparently did not rape her or ask for a ransom or even attempt to hide the body for a proper burial. Sound familiar? This killing happened close to Boulder.

    I am unable to find any specific details re: Alie Berrelez also killed near Boulder.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by voynich View Post
    What would you say was the motive? If the motive of kidnapping for ransom why did he dispose the body?
    If I were in your position, I'd concentrate more on the fact that she was not killed IN THE HOME.

    If the motive was sexual assault, why did he not do more and then dispose of the body?
    Same reason as Dennis Dechaine, probably.

    Why dispose the body in a highly trafficked area?
    Quite a few of them do that, voynich.

    If Neef's wrist and mouth were bound, what would be the reason to kill her and throw away her supplies?
    At least her wrists really WERE bound. That's the part I'm focusing on.

    And the placing of the body sounds like staging? Or some psychological symbol?
    Since I'm not psychic, I can't really guess what the motive for that was. But the fact that you ask the question at all shows me that you're possibly not clear on what is meant by "staging."

    I just don't see the similarities you seem to be pointing out. It's not for lack of trying, either. Indeed, like most of the real intruder/stranger kidnappings that happen, it just highlights the contrast between a real one and what happened to JB.

    You probably don't know this, but I have a passage in the book dedicated to exactly that. You might find it interesting.
    I'm as mad as HELL and I'm NOT gonna take it anymore!.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperDave View Post
    1 If I were in your position, I'd concentrate more on the fact that she was not killed IN THE HOME.

    2 Same reason as Dennis Dechaine, probably.

    3 Quite a few of them do that, voynich.

    4 t least her wrists really WERE bound. That's the part I'm focusing on.

    5 Since I'm not psychic, I can't really guess what the motive for that was. But the fact that you ask the question at all shows me that you're possibly not clear on what is meant by "staging."

    6 I just don't see the similarities you seem to be pointing out. It's not for lack of trying, either. Indeed, like most of the real intruder/stranger kidnappings that happen, it just highlights the contrast between a real one and what happened to JB.

    7 You probably don't know this, but I have a passage in the book dedicated to exactly that. You might find it interesting.
    1 He got better. No one, FBI, CBI, LE, could figure out how he intercepted Tracy.
    2 Was he living near JB sometime b4? Tracy did.
    3 Coincidentally similar to how JB body was quickly found and not hidden. In both cases, it's as if the killer WANTED the body found quickly.
    4 both were strangled w/ligature marks. If JB was struck in the head first, he would not have a struggling child as w/Tracy.
    5 Tracy was found lying sideways with her knees bent together and her hands lying palm down on her belly.

    taging is making a crime scene look like something other than what occurred. Tracy was posed. Sounds like a motherly care-taking kind of fetal position, rather than just being dumped or tossed away. Proprietary interest.

    What if Tracy's killer entered JB's home Dec 26, 1996? What do you think Tracy's killer would have done if he was alone w/JB in JB's house, and why given what we know what happened to Tracy? Seems like he would kill her. He killed Tracy. Tracy & JB both 6-7 y/o wf. No clear motive. Did not hide body from parents or attempt to collect ransom money. Arranged or posed body. Disappeared. Used binding/ligature, strangulation. No apparent "rape" of victim. Both operated in an extremely tight timeline, narrow window of opportunity, and Tracy disappeared in public, in broad day light, on school premises. Killing Tracy seemed enough for Tracy's killer. Perhaps killing JB was enough and staging the scene to make it look like it was a botched kidnapping.

    What if they could test the DNA in hair found on Tracy and it matched JB's foreign DNA?

    You have a passage specifically on Tracy's killer as an IDI suspect?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by voynich View Post
    1 He got better. No one, FBI, CBI, LE, could figure out how he intercepted Tracy.
    He got better. Uh-huh. I think my point got lost in there someplace.

    2 Was he living near JB sometime b4? Tracy did.
    No, Dennis Dechaine's been serving a life sentence in Maine since 1988 for a crime very similar to what happened to Tracy.

    3 Coincidentally similar to how JB body was quickly found and not hidden. In both cases, it's as if the killer WANTED the body found quickly.
    I think whomever killed JB DID want her found quickly, voynich. Thought I made that clear.

    4 both were strangled w/ligature marks. If JB was struck in the head first, he would not have a struggling child as w/Tracy.
    Yes, ligature marks on the neck. And I would guess in Tracy's case she didn't have wrist ties that wouldn't restrain a baby.

    5 Tracy was found lying sideways with her knees bent together and her hands lying palm down on her belly.

    Sounds like a motherly care-taking kind of fetal position, rather than just being dumped or tossed away. Proprietary interest.
    You can't seriously be comparing the two. All of the injuries to Tracy were obviously intended to kill. Most of those on JB's were intended to mislead. The proprietary interest shown to JB? THAT was real, okay? THAT's where you're going wrong, imo.

    What if they could test the DNA in hair found on Tracy and it matched JB's foreign DNA?
    Hypothetically? Then we've really got something!

    Let me lay something on the line here: I'm sure that if you search hard enough, as you obviously have, you can find a few cases where MAYBE one or two elements SEEM the same (and even then if you view it a certain way). But I have yet to find a case where the MAJORITY of elements come together like this one does. I've looked. That's why these comparisons don't work on me.
    I'm as mad as HELL and I'm NOT gonna take it anymore!.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperDave View Post
    He got better. Uh-huh. I think my point got lost in there someplace.



    No, Dennis Dechaine's been serving a life sentence in Maine since 1988 for a crime very similar to what happened to Tracy.



    I think whomever killed JB DID want her found quickly, voynich. Thought I made that clear.



    Yes, ligature marks on the neck. And I would guess in Tracy's case she didn't have wrist ties that wouldn't restrain a baby.



    You can't seriously be comparing the two. All of the injuries to Tracy were obviously intended to kill. Most of those on JB's were intended to mislead. The proprietary interest shown to JB? THAT was real, okay? THAT's where you're going wrong, imo.



    Hypothetically? Then we've really got something!

    Let me lay something on the line here: I'm sure that if you search hard enough, as you obviously have, you can find a few cases where MAYBE one or two elements SEEM the same (and even then if you view it a certain way). But I have yet to find a case where the MAJORITY of elements come together like this one does. I've looked. That's why these comparisons don't work on me.
    Tracy's killer (TK) was never caught AND he killed and captured T NEAR JB, and years before JB. What would you think TK would do if he decided to target JB after killing T?

    If not "staging" or "proprietary interest" then how would you describe
    Tracy was found lying sideways with her knees bent together and her hands lying palm down on her belly. Sounds to me this TK shows proprietary interest in his victim(s).


    I don't want to go Hannibal Lectur Silence of the lambs on you, but this sounds like TN was in fetal position, which symbolizes re-birth in the mind of the killer, a return to the womb. This killer suffers from a reverse penis-envy, womb-envy. The young girl represents his own impotence and inability to bring life into this world, which he reacts by killing the object of his envy, and then re-positioning her so that she then can be reborn into the world. The use of ligature for both JB and TN is a symbol of the umbilical cord. JB re-awaken this feeling of inadequacy.


    Who ever killed TN did not care to conceal her body so that it would also be found quickly (for whatever reason -- TK took risk of finding significant incriminating evidence v.s decomposed body)

    If TK was willing to kidnap TN in broad day light, near a school, shortly after being dropped off by her mother, then he's obviously a risk-taker, and someone like that could enter a house (not too far from the elementary school of TN) to do his deed years later. There were many options TK could have done, such as demand a ransom or keep the body, or keep TN alive, or rape her, which TK did not do.

    Alie Berrelez also killed near Boulder, quite possibly same killer.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by voynich View Post
    Tracy's killer (TK) was never caught AND he killed and captured T NEAR JB, and years before JB. What would you think TK would do if he decided to target JB after killing T?
    And never struck again afterwards?

    If not "staging" or "proprietary interest" then how would you describe
    Tracy was found lying sideways with her knees bent together and her hands lying palm down on her belly. Sounds to me this TK shows proprietary interest in his victim(s).
    I describe it as sick jollies.

    I don't want to go Hannibal Lectur Silence of the lambs on you,
    Trust me, at the rate we're going, it's not me who has to worry about that.

    but this sounds like TN was in fetal position, which symbolizes re-birth in the mind of the killer, a return to the womb. This killer suffers from a reverse penis-envy, womb-envy. The young girl represents his own impotence and inability to bring life into this world, which he reacts by killing the object of his envy, and then re-positioning her so that she then can be reborn into the world. The use of ligature for both JB and TN is a symbol of the umbilical cord. JB re-awaken this feeling of inadequacy.
    And that's somehow more believable than what the official profilers said? And don't think we're finished on THAT front.

    Who ever killed TN did not care to conceal her body so that it would also be found quickly (for whatever reason -- TK took risk of finding significant incriminating evidence v.s decomposed body)
    I still don't see how that relates.

    If TK was willing to kidnap TN in broad day light, near a school, shortly after being dropped off by her mother, then he's obviously a risk-taker, and someone like that could enter a house (not too far from the elementary school of TN) to do his deed years later. There were many options TK could have done, such as demand a ransom or keep the body, or keep TN alive, or rape her, which TK did not do.
    I still don't seem to be getting through.
    I'm as mad as HELL and I'm NOT gonna take it anymore!.

  9. #9
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    Voynich,

    If you get a DNA match to the DNA on JBR, Dave and any other RDI will backtrack like nothing you have ever seen. I wouldn't put too much emphasis on this case yet, but it is a theory. It is even possible that they have matched some DNA from JBR in another case and we just don't know. But that would blow up up this forum, that is for sure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy23 View Post
    Voynich,

    If you get a DNA match to the DNA on JBR, Dave and any other RDI will backtrack like nothing you have ever seen. I wouldn't put too much emphasis on this case yet, but it is a theory.
    Quote Originally Posted by Roy23 View Post
    It is even possible that they have matched some DNA from JBR in another case and we just don't know. But that would blow up up this forum, that is for sure.
    Hey Roy23.

    That's what I have often wondered as well re MLK exhoneration.

    also what if the IDI dna was found on other JBR evidence and that info has yet to be released?


  11. #11
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    At least her wrists really WERE bound. That's the part I'm focusing on. - SD

    Hey SD.

    A quick question, a bit off topic but, I've been meaning to ask you this, but I get distracted and then forget to ...

    so here goes,

    have you ever entertained the thought that the looseness in the binding around JBR's legs and wrists could be because she had been loosely tied to an object? bent over perhaps?

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy23 View Post
    Voynich,

    If you get a DNA match to the DNA on JBR, Dave and any other RDI will backtrack like nothing you have ever seen.
    Didn't I say that? But I'm not holding my breath.

    It is even possible that they have matched some DNA from JBR in another case and we just don't know.
    Highly unlikely. We'd know.
    I'm as mad as HELL and I'm NOT gonna take it anymore!.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tadpole12 View Post
    At least her wrists really WERE bound. That's the part I'm focusing on. - SD

    Hey SD.

    A quick question, a bit off topic but, I've been meaning to ask you this, but I get distracted and then forget to ...
    You can ask me anything, Tadpole. That's what I'm here for.

    so here goes,

    have you ever entertained the thought that the looseness in the binding around JBR's legs and wrists could be because she had been loosely tied to an object? bent over perhaps?
    For one thing, JB's legs were not bound at all. Secondly, there have been people over the years who have suggested that, like she was hanging and what-not, but no one in the case on either side ever seriously bought that idea. So the short answer is no.
    I'm as mad as HELL and I'm NOT gonna take it anymore!.

  14. #14
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    Crime of Opportunity

    Neef sounds like she was in the wrong place at the wrong time, and it was more a crime of opportunity then anything else. The perp saw her alone outside the school, and snatched her, and accidentally killed her because he panicked. It could have been someone prowling around the school looking for a victim. Just seems to me that she was targeted, and then snatched. There is such a thing as linkage analysis, to look for similarities in crimes in various locations. Hopefully they have some evidence stashed away where they could apply the new DNA techniques and try to get some DNA and put it in a local and national database.



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