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Thread: "G (Guilty)" vs "NG (Not Guilty)" Where do you stand? #2

  1. #51
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    As far as the application of duct tape is concerned, Casey very well could have straddled Caylee, in effect sitting upon her, in such a way she could not move her arms. With both hands free Casey would be able to apply the tape. Casey may be petite but she could easily overpower a 2/3 year old. I can submit from my own childhood experience when a larger girl in my neighborhood pushed me to the ground, sat on me, and with some success attempted to shove pine needles in my mouth. The girl had at most 20lbs on me but it was enough to overpower me and I could not get up. Casey had at least 70lbs on her daughter, it would not have been difficult for her to incapacitate Caylee merely by using her weight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Searchfortruth View Post
    Casey, on the 16th, apparantly told George (not sure if she told Cindy) that Caylee and her wouldn't be home that night, IMO, this shows premeditation... that is, if Caylee died after George was told they wouldn't be home, and I believe she did.
    And, later that evening, KC was taped w/ TonE renting vids-- w/o Caylee.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Princess Rose View Post
    The ONLY place that chloroform was found was in the trunk of Casey's car. So are you suggesting that Casey murdered Caylee there?
    Chloroform dissipates in open air. It would remain in the closed trunk.

    My guess is the murder took place in the open air.
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  7. #54
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    How can the Prosecution PROVE that Casey chloroformed Caylee in open air and then duct taped her?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Princess Rose View Post
    How can the Prosecution PROVE that Casey chloroformed Caylee in open air and then duct taped her?
    They don't have to prove a cause of death.

    However, they can prove that KC duct taped her. KC was the last and only one to have custody of Caylee, and she died in KC's care.

    No one else had motive, method, and opportunity to kill Caylee. Just KC.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Princess Rose View Post
    How can the Prosecution PROVE that Casey chloroformed Caylee in open air and then duct taped her?
    To be honest, Princess Rose, I don't really care at this point in time how they prove it. Endless postulating is for the Defense - and Andrea Lyons' students - to do, looking for any angle that might work.

    And I am NOT here to help the defense in ANY way. Let'em do their own work.

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  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Princess Rose View Post
    How can the Prosecution PROVE that Casey chloroformed Caylee in open air and then duct taped her?
    It may be impossible to PROVE the exact cause of death unless the killer confesses. However, I believe that if the SA can prove KC was the only reasonable suspect with means, motive and opportunity, which should make all of the details that drive us crazy either irrelevant or moot.

    Cases have been won with less evidence and without a body. I think that the jury will take into consideration all of the possible scenarios and figure out from the evidence what is the most likely and reasonable.

    Whether chloroform was used as a drug to put her to sleep (or whether its presence in the car trunk can be explained by cleaning chemicals), or whether it was xanax or baby benadryl, or she was asleep or awake - there may be a variety of ways Caylee's demise happened, whether by negligent accident or premeditation (either in an angry rage-filled instant, or in a slow and calculated manner).

    Regardless of how it happened, what is most inescapable is that KC is far and away the only realistic suspect, and after it happened she went to elaborate and convoluted machinations to hide it and lie about it to any and all that asked, while simultaneously behaving as if she was having the time of her life, in a social whirl of parties, sex, tattoos and a crime spree involving stolen money.

    When she was finally caught, she lied to LE and was furious with both them and her family for holding her accountable for her responsibility of keeping her child safe and for interrupting her current lifestyle. She created a fictional villain, and when that did not seem to bear fruit, she tried to implicate friends that had only been kind to her, or ones she had already victimized.

    This charade may have ended sooner had her family not been so willing to corroborate her obvious mendacity and, for whatever selfish reasons, to try to help her avoid the consequences of her actions (a well-documented enabling behavior that goes back long before this incident).

    I'm starting to think that the jury will find KC guilty of whatever they can within the parameters of their instructions and the admissable evidence, and whatever sentence is handed down, very little mercy will be shown in terms of length of appropriate sentence. Her ridiculouse stories, her behavior, her condescending or angry demeanor, her lack of affect regarding the fate of her child, the fact her parents are on record before this happened as not trusting her to safely care for her child, all point to someone who did something, either from negligence, rage, or some other emotion that cost a darling little toddler her life.

    I think at some point, the finer details will be immaterial and moot from a legal point of view.
    "Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices" - Voltaire

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    Quote Originally Posted by cecybeans View Post
    It may be impossible to PROVE the exact cause of death unless the killer confesses. However, I believe that if the SA can prove KC was the only reasonable suspect with means, motive and opportunity, which should make all of the details that drive us crazy either irrelevant or moot.

    Cases have been won with less evidence and without a body. I think that the jury will take into consideration all of the possible scenarios and figure out from the evidence what is the most likely and reasonable.

    Whether chloroform was used as a drug to put her to sleep (or whether its presence in the car trunk can be explained by cleaning chemicals), or whether it was xanax or baby benadryl, or she was asleep or awake - there may be a variety of ways Caylee's demise happened, whether by negligent accident or premeditation (either in an angry rage-filled instant, or in a slow and calculated manner).

    Regardless of how it happened, what is most inescapable is that KC is far and away the only realistic suspect, and after it happened she went to elaborate and convoluted machinations to hide it and lie about it to any and all that asked, while simultaneously behaving as if she was having the time of her life, in a social whirl of parties, sex, tattoos and a crime spree involving stolen money.

    When she was finally caught, she lied to LE and was furious with both them and her family for holding her accountable for her responsibility of keeping her child safe and for interrupting her current lifestyle. She created a fictional villain, and when that did not seem to bear fruit, she tried to implicate friends that had only been kind to her, or ones she had already victimized.

    This charade may have ended sooner had her family not been so willing to corroborate her obvious mendacity and, for whatever selfish reasons, to try to help her avoid the consequences of her actions (a well-documented enabling behavior that goes back long before this incident).

    I'm starting to think that the jury will find KC guilty of whatever they can within the parameters of their instructions and the admissable evidence, and whatever sentence is handed down, very little mercy will be shown in terms of length of appropriate sentence. Her ridiculouse stories, her behavior, her condescending or angry demeanor, her lack of affect regarding the fate of her child, the fact her parents are on record before this happened as not trusting her to safely care for her child, all point to someone who did something, either from negligence, rage, or some other emotion that cost a darling little toddler her life.

    I think at some point, the finer details will be immaterial and moot from a legal point of view.
    I agree with you. When it's all laid out by the SA and Dr. G has her say,I think the jury will go with the highest charge.
    If the defense dares to throw anyone else under the bus with a SODDI defense ,I think this will anger and harden the jury. If they try to claim an accident I think the jury will be insulted .All they can reasonably do is try to undermine the science. There's just too much of it and the jury may pity the defense at that point.
    KC is guilty and I believe premeditated.
    We need a doc dump .
    Last edited by MissJames; 07-16-2009 at 01:42 AM. Reason: sp
    Always ,just my opinion

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  16. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by cecybeans View Post

    I'm starting to think that the jury will find KC guilty of whatever they can within the parameters of their instructions and the admissable evidence, and whatever sentence is handed down, very little mercy will be shown in terms of length of appropriate sentence. Her ridiculouse stories, her behavior, her condescending or angry demeanor, her lack of affect regarding the fate of her child, the fact her parents are on record before this happened as not trusting her to safely care for her child, all point to someone who did something, either from negligence, rage, or some other emotion that cost a darling little toddler her life.

    I think at some point, the finer details will be immaterial and moot from a legal point of view.


    Completely agree. This babe is guilty... of precisely what, when where and how, we will never know, unless she says. Even then, we probably won't be able to believe her given her history as a determined liar. Her baby is dead, not burried, mourned and honored, but thrown away in garbage bags, not even in the trash, but in a muck filled swamp, left to rot, apparently with the hope that she would never be found to be given the respect of a proper burial. Whatever happened, KC is responsible for this crime, whatever exactly it is, AND for the awful ensuing mess. Millions of dollars that could be better spent must be spent on her because she won't fess up. Her poor friends and family are having their lives ravaged while she denies her culpability. The police have been maligned for doing their job, as has become usual in our crazy, mixed up society. Innocent people have been disparaged and efforts have been made to implicate them when their only mistake was befriending the babe, or searching for her daughter when she wouldn't give a clue and for caring more about her baby than she did.

    While there's a remote possibility, the stars will line up all wrong and somehow this babe will some day get out to walk among us again on some legal technicality, I hope not and sincerely doubt it will happen. Florida is not California. When KC's jury closes the door to the jury room, they will be sitting on top of a mountain of evidence, and they will be the ones charged on of behalf of society to sort out this whole disaster, finally at long last. When that time comes, after all is said and done, after all the witnesses and lawyering, I believe this jury will be left with KC, her sorry self, what she did that we do know about, what she didn't do, when she did or didn't do it, what she said and didn't say, juxtaposed against poor little Caylee, dead, trippled bagged and dumped. At that point, the jury won't come back into court quoting chapter and verse from legal books, spouting legalese. I continue to believe that, based on what KC, herself has and has not done, they'll come back with only one word, not even two.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MissJames View Post
    I agree with you. When it's all laid out by the SA and Dr. G has her say,I think the jury will go with the highest charge.
    If the defense dares to throw anyone else under the bus with a SODDI defense ,I think this will anger and harden the jury. If they try to claim an accident I think the jury will be insulted .All they can reasonably do is try to undermine the science. There's just too much of it and the jury may pity the defense at that point.
    KC is guilty and I believe premeditated.
    We need a doc dump .
    I think the fact that AL is on record and has written material on the fact that she is not fond of the SODDI defense will be critical (and helpful). Trying to undermine the science might also anger and harden the jury if it's not handled well.

    And you are so right - we TOTALLY need a doc dump! I know a lot of my family and friends would like the attitude adjustment it would give me!
    "Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices" - Voltaire

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brini View Post
    I think they'll just try to pick at the forensics, and call it a day. They don't have anything else.

    LOVE it is they put Dr. Lee up against Dr. G! Fun!
    Even if they make points against forensics, there's still a dead baby who started out in KC's care and ended up dead in three bags 'close' to home after last being seen with her mom. The only one who can explain how that not KC's fault is KC. Up until now, she's told a lot of stories, all of them balderdash. Even more fun than Dr G and Henry Lee would be KC on the stand under cross for all to see.

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  22. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by yolorado View Post
    Even if they make points against forensics, there's still a dead baby who started out in KC's care and ended up dead in three bags 'close' to home after last being seen with her mom. The only one who can explain how that not KC's fault is KC. Up until now, she's told a lot of stories, all of them balderdash. Even more fun than Dr G and Henry Lee would be KC on the stand under cross for all to see.
    Discrediting the decomp in the trunk tests was important beforeCaylee was found because the defense was still claiming Caylee was alive.Since Caylee's body was found it no longer seems reasonable to claim the decomp is from old lunch meat [pig]. 2+2 =4
    The defense may try to claim KC wasn't responsible for putting Caylee in the trunk,but unless they can come up with a video actually showing someone else doin it,I don't think that will fly.
    It all leads back to KC. She dug quite a hole for herself and the A's and JB jumped in with her.
    The defense will try and distract from the real issues. We even see that being tried here,but in the end the sheer volume of evidence will speak for itself,starting with the 31 days.
    Too much says KC is guilty,Murder One.
    Always ,just my opinion

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    I was watching ID last night and they covered the Lewis Joyner case. Some aspects of his case reminded me of this one. Lewis was mainly convicted because of his behavior after the death of his wife and her friend (he ran after the murders from Ga to NY, telling people that he went to NY to get his driver's license). Anyway, he ended up being convicted of the murder of his wife.

    They talked to four members of the jury and all four of them looked at Lewis's behavior after the murders as consciousness of guilt, none of them bought the driver's license story. The jurors said that his behavior was a major factor in the decision to convict.

    Behavior, IMO, is one of the things that will sink Casey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muzikman View Post
    To be honest, Princess Rose, I don't really care at this point in time how they prove it. Endless postulating is for the Defense - and Andrea Lyons' students - to do, looking for any angle that might work.

    And I am NOT here to help the defense in ANY way. Let'em do their own work.
    I'm not here to help the defense either, but I am deeply concerned that the evidence released so far will not get a Murder 1 conviction which makes me wonder why the prosecution thinks it will work. There are also a lot of forensic tests I believe should have been run that I'm not seeing the information for. Very worrying.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Princess Rose View Post
    I'm not here to help the defense either, but I am deeply concerned that the evidence released so far will not get a Murder 1 conviction which makes me wonder why the prosecution thinks it will work. There are also a lot of forensic tests I believe should have been run that I'm not seeing the information for. Very worrying.
    Bolding mine....

    But the key here is the evidence that has been released so far. Just because it hasn't been released yet doesn't mean that they don't have the evidence. I believe there is a lot of evidence that has not been released yet because they are either doing further testing on it, or else it hasn't been released to the prosecution from the FBI or other agencies that are performing the tests.

    We haven't gotten any information on the maggots that were found in the trunk yet and I believe that potentially they could have Caylee's DNA in them, which along w/the hair w/the death band on will definitely show that a dead Caylee was in the trunk of Casey's car.

    I think Casey is guilty of the charges against her, and I think the prosecution will more than prove their case when this goes to trial.

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    I saw a rerun of the PrimeTime HLN news with Mike Galanos at 4 this morning.Because it was July 16th they did an update on the case.A reporter said the SA's office should be releasing more discovery ,hopefully by the end of the month.She also said it would be test results,I believe.No more reports,just evidence.
    Perhaps that will put your mind at ease,Princess.I think they have plenty already.Way more than many other cases that ended in convictions.
    I tend to believe when Dr. G rules homicide she can back it up.
    Always ,just my opinion

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  31. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Princess Rose View Post
    I'm not here to help the defense either, but I am deeply concerned that the evidence released so far will not get a Murder 1 conviction which makes me wonder why the prosecution thinks it will work. There are also a lot of forensic tests I believe should have been run that I'm not seeing the information for. Very worrying.
    I don't think - as I'm sure many others here think also - that you have any reason to worry or have deep concern, Princess Rose.

    Regardless of what happens in her murder trial, she will be spending YEARS in prison on the fraud charges alone. And many years for neglecting Caylee in the murder trial, no matter what charges she ends up being convicted of. And she will be convicted of something.

    She will NEVER EVER (Repeat: NEVER EVER) have a normal life. Even if she eventually got out of prison - which many here highly doubt, I think - she will forever be looked at harshly, pointed at, laughed at, and probably even spit upon.

    Her life, as she envisioned it, is over - 100% due to her own actions and words.

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  33. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dells View Post
    Bolding mine....

    But the key here is the evidence that has been released so far. Just because it hasn't been released yet doesn't mean that they don't have the evidence. I believe there is a lot of evidence that has not been released yet because they are either doing further testing on it, or else it hasn't been released to the prosecution from the FBI or other agencies that are performing the tests.

    We haven't gotten any information on the maggots that were found in the trunk yet and I believe that potentially they could have Caylee's DNA in them, which along w/the hair w/the death band on will definitely show that a dead Caylee was in the trunk of Casey's car.

    I think Casey is guilty of the charges against her, and I think the prosecution will more than prove their case when this goes to trial.
    Hi Dells,
    Welcome to this madness,LOL.
    Yes,the trial keeps getting pushed back,which gives the SA plenty of time to release discovery.....slowly and painfully.
    But IMO it all continues to prove KC's guilt.
    Always ,just my opinion

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    Quote Originally Posted by Princess Rose View Post
    I'm not here to help the defense either, but I am deeply concerned that the evidence released so far will not get a Murder 1 conviction which makes me wonder why the prosecution thinks it will work. There are also a lot of forensic tests I believe should have been run that I'm not seeing the information for. Very worrying.
    Princess, we've already seen a release of MUCH more evidence than has convicted many other murderers. It's literally mountainous.

    I think KC might have had a chance had JB pressed for a speedy trial, and had that trial somehow taken place before Caylee was found.

    But, that ship has not only sailed; it has sunk.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muzikman View Post
    I don't think - as I'm sure many others here think also - that you have any reason to worry or have deep concern, Princess Rose.

    Regardless of what happens in her murder trial, she will be spending YEARS in prison on the fraud charges alone. And many years for neglecting Caylee in the murder trial, no matter what charges she ends up being convicted of. And she will be convicted of something.

    She will NEVER EVER (Repeat: NEVER EVER) have a normal life. Even if she eventually got out of prison - which many here highly doubt, I think - she will forever be looked at harshly, pointed at, laughed at, and probably even spit upon.

    Her life, as she envisioned it, is over - 100% due to her own actions and words.
    ITA!! Next stop-THE BIG HOUSE Where KC will be able to make new friends

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    Quote Originally Posted by MissJames View Post
    I saw a rerun of the PrimeTime HLN news with Mike Galanos at 4 this morning.Because it was July 16th they did an update on the case.A reporter said the SA's office should be releasing more discovery ,hopefully by the end of the month.She also said it would be test results,I believe.No more reports,just evidence.
    Perhaps that will put your mind at ease,Princess.I think they have plenty already.Way more than many other cases that ended in convictions.
    I tend to believe when Dr. G rules homicide she can back it up.
    Stole think link from Steadychick on the List questions thread

    http://www.wesh.com/news/20058772/detail.html
    it confirms what I mentioned about the SA releasing more discovery,audio and videotapes according to this report.
    It also says AL will file a motion to remove the DP from the case.
    If that should happen we are back to JB.
    I think this is all she was brought on to do.I just can't see JB giving up the drivers seat ,taking a plea or going with accident defense.He wants to pin this on somebody else IMO.
    BUT KC is guilty .
    Always ,just my opinion

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muzikman View Post
    I don't think - as I'm sure many others here think also - that you have any reason to worry or have deep concern, Princess Rose.

    Regardless of what happens in her murder trial, she will be spending YEARS in prison on the fraud charges alone. And many years for neglecting Caylee in the murder trial, no matter what charges she ends up being convicted of. And she will be convicted of something.

    She will NEVER EVER (Repeat: NEVER EVER) have a normal life. Even if she eventually got out of prison - which many here highly doubt, I think - she will forever be looked at harshly, pointed at, laughed at, and probably even spit upon.

    Her life, as she envisioned it, is over - 100% due to her own actions and words.
    Thank you, Muzikman. You're right ~ In the long run, she will be paying whether it's through the court system or not. But I really do appreciate, too, the arguments that Princess Rose and Wudge have brought to this thread. It helps me see some of the legal weaknesses in the case. Because of what I saw during OJ's trial I understand it is never a sure thing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dells View Post
    Bolding mine....

    But the key here is the evidence that has been released so far. Just because it hasn't been released yet doesn't mean that they don't have the evidence. I believe there is a lot of evidence that has not been released yet because they are either doing further testing on it, or else it hasn't been released to the prosecution from the FBI or other agencies that are performing the tests.

    We haven't gotten any information on the maggots that were found in the trunk yet and I believe that potentially they could have Caylee's DNA in them, which along w/the hair w/the death band on will definitely show that a dead Caylee was in the trunk of Casey's car.

    I think Casey is guilty of the charges against her, and I think the prosecution will more than prove their case when this goes to trial.
    ITA. Welcome!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muzikman View Post
    I don't think - as I'm sure many others here think also - that you have any reason to worry or have deep concern, Princess Rose.

    Regardless of what happens in her murder trial, she will be spending YEARS in prison on the fraud charges alone. And many years for neglecting Caylee in the murder trial, no matter what charges she ends up being convicted of. And she will be convicted of something.

    She will NEVER EVER (Repeat: NEVER EVER) have a normal life. Even if she eventually got out of prison - which many here highly doubt, I think - she will forever be looked at harshly, pointed at, laughed at, and probably even spit upon.

    Her life, as she envisioned it, is over - 100% due to her own actions and words.
    I think you're right. Those who are KC Sympathizers or pro defense are not going to get around the fraud and neglect charges.

    And as for being spit on, that would be the least of her worries.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by missmybaby View Post
    I'm so sorry that you have had to go through the unbearable loss of your son. I think most parents, most adults, know there is no worse pain than the loss of a child. Thank you so much for sharing with us what you learned from this experience. I know in my heart, if I were in the position of finding a child lifeless there is nothing I wouldn't try to "fix" the problem. No matter how irreversible it seemed.

    How KC was able to wrap duct tape over her baby's face (it makes me feel ill just writing the statement) I will never as long as I live be able to understand. How she could do this to another human being, her very own precious baby, I cannot fathom.

    I hope she never knows another day of freedom, I hope she never again has a chance to enjoy "the beautiful life". I hope she never has the opportunity to cause another human being harm, never experiences the joy of holding a new born baby. Never knows the pleasure of being in love, playing with puppies or even seeing a rainbow. I hope all the things she has deprived Caylee of are tenfold for KC.

    I don't really care if she lives or dies. Once she is found guilty, once the prison door slides shut behind her. I hope I never again hear her name or read anything about her. I hope she falls into anonymity. Never to be spoken of again. Knowing KC's personality, that is probably a fate worse than death.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Eunice Burns View Post
    I agree. The only thing is.... if KC is found guilty we will still hear plenty about her. Rest assured the As will launch the Save Casey Anthony (or some similar iteration) campaign and website ala Jackie and Lee Peterson. Their current foundation will be a dim memory. I don't think it will be over, if ever, for a very long time.
    Off-topic, but the Petersons made a public appeal today for donations from the public for Scott Peterson's appeal.
    Last edited by Patty G; 07-17-2009 at 09:12 AM. Reason: Fixed broken quote
    My posts are my opinion..........



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