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Thread: The Springfield Three--missing since June 1992 - #4

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    The Springfield Three--missing since June 1992 - #4

    Please continue general discussions here. Thanks.

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    Forensic Evidence Collection in the 1990’s – Part #3

    Some people have been critical of SPD’s forensic investigation because of a picture (or possibly on the 48 Hrs program, I don’t recall which) showing investigators handling bags similar to grocery bags which contain the individual evidence collection bags which hold the evidentiary samples collected at the crime scene. The criticism comes from the fact that the forensic investigator(s) is shown not wearing gloves. If this picture comes from the 48 Hrs program then it is likely that it is a re-creation staged for the filming of the program as are several scenes in the program. Regardless of that fact, it is known and accepted that vinyl gloves (which are often preferred over latex because of possible allergic reactions to latex) under certain conditions can leave friction ridge contamination from the wearer:

    Universal precautions that are used by forensic personnel at crime scenes are necessary to protect the crime scene processors from chemical and biological hazards. These precautions also serve to ensure that the scene is not contaminated by actions of the crime scene examiners. A particular type of glove that is routinely used in crime scene processing does protect against hazards but is not effective against scene contamination.

    Most individuals who are involved in the processing and reconstruction of crime scenes and associated evidence understand the absolute necessity to protect their skin from coming in contact with items of physical evidence. Additionally, crime scene personnel must not contaminate evidence that is being recovered during the collection and examination phases of the crime scene processing. For these reasons, gloves must be worn. However, many crime scene technicians and investigators have the misconception that gloves will prevent fingerprints from being left on handled items. Saferstein recommends that crime scene processors wear two pairs of latex gloves as a minimum [1]. This doubles the protection of both biohazard transmission and evidence contamination. Gerberth states that “approved disposable gloves” should be used at the crime scene [2]. Lee recommends latex gloves for the handling of evidence that is located in crime scenes [3]. Although latex gloves are often referred to in crime scene manuals and texts, some authors explain that liquid barrier rubber gloves are preferred.

    “…when the outside surface became contaminated with a transference material, the glove membrane was sufficiently thin and of a density that allowed the glove to transfer the friction ridge shapes to the substrate. Although the glove may provide adequate protection from chemical or biological hazards for personnel, it is insufficient to protect the crime scene from friction ridge contamination.

    Glove protection protocols to avoid latent print contamination is critical. Either a double glove should be worn or cotton gloves should be worn underneath the vinyl glove shell. The double glove method may be less comfortable because of the amount of heat it generates. Both the double glove method and the wearing of a cotton under-glove proved effective in keeping inadvertent latent prints by the crime scene personnel from contaminating the crime scene. Single glove wear, and in particular, vinyl examination glove wear, could significantly contaminate fingerprint evidence that is handled by crime scene processors at the scene.

    David A. Lounsbury
    Director, Institute for Forensic Excellence
    Florida Gulf Coast University http://www.crime-scene-investigator.net/GlovesAtCrimeScene.html

    So what exactly does SPD have in forensic evidence?
    We have already seen in the abduction cases of Joan Butler and Theresa Brown & Christine Rusch that it is entirely possible for the victims to be subdued and abducted from their homes and the perpetrator not leave any forensic evidence behind. I personally don’t believe that SPD has any DNA developed from blood, saliva, or seminal fluids left at the crime scene by the perpetrator(s). But if SPD has been able to develop DNA from evidentiary samples then it would most likely eliminate all of the usual suspects except Bartt Streeter and Dustin Recla since no arrests have been made. If Recla’s DNA was found in the house he could always claim that Suzie invited him over one night since they had previously dated. Without additional evidence his DNA alone would probably not be enough to bring charges. Other male friends could make the same claim that Suzie had asked them over but it would be harder to substantiate as fact since they had not previously dated Suzie. The final option is that if there is DNA then it belongs to an unknown who is not in the CODIS database.

    We are told that all prints have been identified except one partial print.

    If SPD has hair sample(s) with the root sheath in place than the DNA generated from PCR technology would have told them what percentage of the population to which the donor belongs. Several, if not most of the usual suspects, probably fall into that same percentage so this hair evidence could not be used to single out a suspect from that pool of suspects. If the hair sample has no root sheath attached then analysis can only compare the sample against a known sample from a suspect and compare their characteristics to each other. If they were to have a strong match between the samples it is probably not enough to bring charges without additional evidence. Remember, At this point, no one can say that a hair came from a particular individual.

    Apparently SPD found no known fibers in their collection of evidentiary samples, or if they did then they have been unable to match them to clothing or other personal effects owned by any of the usual suspects.

    So what did I miss? Where did SPD fail in their forensic investigation? Just because an arrest has not been made based on forensic evidence doesn’t mean that SPD didn’t do a proper collection of evidentiary samples. Just because this crime has not been solved doesn’t mean that SPD botched the investigation. Not all crimes get solved regardless of what Law & Order or CSI would have us believe.

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    Thread 1 http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...ht=springfield

    Thread 2 [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59845"]The Springfield Three--missing since June 1992 THREAD NO. 2 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]


    Thread 3 [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82746"]The Springfield Three--missing since June 1992 THREAD NO. 3 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]


    Media Links Thread [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83348"]Media Links NO DISCUSSION - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]


    Images only Thread [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83352"]Images only NO DISCUSSION - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hurricane View Post
    [FONT=Verdana]
    So what did I miss? Where did SPD fail in their forensic investigation? Just because an arrest has not been made based on forensic evidence doesn’t mean that SPD didn’t do a proper collection of evidentiary samples. Just because this crime has not been solved doesn’t mean that SPD botched the investigation. Not all crimes get solved regardless of what Law & Order or CSI would have us believe.
    Excellent work Hurricane, and a very interesting read.
    Your last sentence especially hits the nail on the head. L&O and CSI may be entertaining, but that's all they are. Too many people watch these shows and assume things are representative of actual criminal investigative work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by odyssey1492 View Post
    Excellent work Hurricane, and a very interesting read.
    Your last sentence especially hits the nail on the head. L&O and CSI may be entertaining, but that's all they are. Too many people watch these shows and assume things are representative of actual criminal investigative work.
    Odyssey, thanks for your comment. What I found to be most interesting were the facts on luminal. Even though I knew that it was only a presumptive test for blood we are led to believe by these TV shows that it is everything in the identification and collection of evidentiary samples of blood. And I always thought that if forensic investigators had hair samples from a crime scene then DNA could be derived through PCR technology. It turns out that’s not the case either.

    It has no bearing on the 3MW case, but I also found these two statements interesting:

    Since the early 1990s, while crime rates have been falling, detectives have been solving a fewer percentage of their cases. Our streets are a little safer, not because of better criminal investigation, and forensic science, but because of the protracted war on drugs.

    A person who will make a good uniformed officer is not necessarily one who will make a good detective. Law enforcement recruits are hired to be good cops, not good detectives. If this weren’t the case, eyesight, physical strength and agility would not be required for the job. Detectives have to be thinking people, cops are reacting people. In other words, being a cop is not the best prerequisite for detective work.

    http://jimfisher.edinboro.edu/forensics/fire/overview.html

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    Hurricane glad to see someone is digging deeper into the actual type of investigation that occurred. THe differences in police work in 92 is not much different than today. That is extremely important information about this case. I have found nothing in my research that suggests that there is any kind of coverup or inappropriate behavior on the part of LE. I think this case is unique. WIth 30 officers working the case from the onset there had to be a procedure followed and that would have differed from the norm since Springfield had never encountered anything like this. The FBI was involved from the second day and on several occasions the MHP was involved. I have also found in other counties that the SPD cooperated giving the files to those agencies. THe problem is that the longer the case has remained unsolved the the more negative and critical the people have become. I am sure this is frustrating for those who were involved. When people cannot accomplish what they want they become frustrated. When people second guess there every move it compounds the problem.
    Last edited by Trooogrit; 07-18-2009 at 08:02 PM.

  12. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Hurricane View Post
    But if SPD has been able to develop DNA from evidentiary samples then it would most likely eliminate all of the usual suspects except Bartt Streeter and Dustin Recla since no arrests have been made. If Recla’s DNA was found in the house he could always claim that Suzie invited him over one night since they had previously dated. Without additional evidence his DNA alone would probably not be enough to bring charges. Other male friends could make the same claim that Suzie had asked them over but it would be harder to substantiate as fact since they had not previously dated Suzie. The final option is that if there is DNA then it belongs to an unknown who is not in the CODIS database.
    Too bad we don't know whether Bartt Streeter's DNA or fingerprints were found at the house or not. Bartt had still been estranged (and disowned, IMO) from his mother and sister since his fight with his sister several months before in which the newspapers alleged he had stabbed his sister with a fork. He had never been to the new house since his mother had moved there, I believe. He didn't go to his sister's graduation nor did he show up at the scene after the crime as did many other concerned friends and relatives.

    His mother and sister moved to Missouri from Washington State without him. It appears that his mother always favored Suzie over him. I think there was a lot of built-up resentment there.

    If Bartt's fingerprints or DNA had been found at the house, that would have made him even more of a suspect.

    When you couple that with his actions after the disappearances; leaving the state, his later kidnapping attempt of a young girl in Las Vegas and death threats of witnesses in that case and his non-participation in the search for his mother and sister to the present day, one can only wonder what he's running from. His many failed relationships, his other arrests over the years and his non-support of his children (to this day) do nothing to enhance his character, either. His own father even stated he should be investigated.

    As far as his alibi goes, it's been a pretty gray area as far as the reporting on it goes. So far, no one on this board has been able to satisfactorily explain (to my satisfaction, anyways) his whereabouts that night, other than to state that the police said he passed the poly.

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    This weekend I caught some of the cable TV "true crime" shows and I saw three examples of guilty perps "passing" the polygraph. All the poly's were administered by Law Enforcement who, presumably knew what they were doing. All three cases involved planned crimes by men with no criminal records who probably expected to be POI's and were prepared to be questioned.

    I went on the internet and found many sites that offered advise on how to "beat" the poly, or otherwise how to get through one when you have something to hide. Overall, I came away from this research unimpressed that anyone might have been "cleared" by a poly.

    In the past, I read a book about polygraphs and the author was pretty confident that he could solve "employee theft" cases if he got to the suspects soon after the crime. The two big tip offs of guilt were reluctance to take the test and the subjects response to the statement by the operator that "serious deception is detected". (this author would always state this following questions relating to the theft regardless of the subjects response to the question). He claimed that many subjects who "passed" the first question, broke down and "failed" when confronted with the "lie" that deception was indicated.

    Overall, I think that a guilty subject who knows that polygraphs are not infallable and has an absolutly solid "cover" story and is able to project confidence and consistancy throughout the session, has a very good chance of "passing" . I don't think anyone should be "ruled out" by a poly alone; in fact I don't think anyone without a rock solid aliby should be ruled out at all.

    The fact that Suzi was going testify against the grave robbers the following week is such a strong connection that they would have to be the #1 (or perhaps 1,2&3) suspects. After that, you have Bart. Every guy with any type of relationship to Sherrill would have to be looked at. Then Suzi and Stacy. The perp(s) could be a stranger, of course. Probably someone who had suceeded with just one victim. (I doubt anyone would try a "multiple" for his first abduction/rape/murder.) This could be a very hard case to solve and I am not jumping to any conclusion that the investigation was botched. We obviously don't have all the facts. My concern has always been that an awful lot of resources were directed towards longshot "leads" and "tips" from the public, while little information has been made available as to how the obvious "prime" suspects were eliminated. As long as I have followed this case, there has been this little suspicion that the Perp was prematurily eliminated early in the investigation; perhaps by a "passed" polygraph.

  14. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Missouri Mule View Post
    I would only take issue with one thing that was said. If Bartt's fingerprints and/or DNA were to be found there, I am not understanding why that would point more specifically to him. I don't believe it is unreasonable to believe he was in the home at some time during the two month period Sherrill and Suzie lived there regardless of the strained relationship that may have existed.
    If Bartt was estranged from his mother and had no contact with her since before she moved into the new house two months before the disappearances then there would be no reason for his prints to have been in the house.

    Until I read something different that he had been to the new house since his fight with his sister then I'll consider him not a suspect.

    Just because LE said he passed the poly and was cleared isn't enough proof.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tangledweb View Post
    Too bad we don't know whether Bartt Streeter's DNA or fingerprints were found at the house or not.
    Bartt had still been estranged (and disowned, IMO) from his mother and sister since his fight with his sister several months before in which the newspapers alleged he had stabbed his sister with a fork.
    He had never been to the new house since his mother had moved there, I believe. He didn't go to his sister's graduation nor did he show up at the scene after the crime as did many other concerned friends and relatives.

    His mother and sister moved to Missouri from Washington State without him. It appears that his mother always favored Suzie over him. I think there was a lot of built-up resentment there.

    If Bartt's fingerprints or DNA had been found at the house, that would have made him even more of a suspect.

    When you couple that with his actions after the disappearances; leaving the state,
    his later kidnapping attempt of a young girl in Las Vegas
    and death threats of witnesses in that case and his non-participation in the search for his mother and sister to the present day, one can only wonder what he's running from. His many failed relationships, his other arrests over the years and his non-support of his children (to this day) do nothing to enhance his character, either. His own father even stated he should be investigated.

    As far as his alibi goes, it's been a pretty gray area as far as the reporting on it goes. So far, no one on this board has been able to satisfactorily explain (to my satisfaction, anyways) his whereabouts that night, other than to state that the police said he passed the poly.
    Maybe it gets lost in the semantics somewhere but I don’t think that the N-L ever alleged that Bartt stabbed his sister with a fork. If you have an article that states such could you post the date of publication? The only thing I have been able to find is the Aug. 24, 1992 article where the N-L apparently questions him about the spring fight he and Suzie had while living together and how it alienated him from Sherrill. Bartt denies as rumors from the public that he stabbed Suzie with a fork or that she was badly bruised. And he thinks that it was the 48 Hrs program people who asked him about Suzie being badly bruised. No one has produced any medical records to substantiate a stabbing, or a beating for that matter. We all know that the human mouth contains lots of disease causing bacteria. Assuming that if such a stabbing were to occur the fork was most likely used and not clean, and needed to be washed. If it broke the skin then medical attention would be required.

    You need to look further into the alleged Las Vegas kidnapping to find out exactly what happened there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Missouri Mule View Post
    I totally agree about the polygraph. In my view they are worthless.

    What we don't know is whether Bartt was in the home during that two month period. How would we know that? For example, Suzie is not around to tell us she never let him in even if Sherrill refused him entry. It is impossible to say based on the known facts.

    I haven't ruled any of these individuals out. Two officers very closely involved with this case pointed in a different direction. I would have no way to say for certain but I would probably put about 10 people on the suspect list. This is where motive and time line becomes critical. The time lines are not sufficiently established and we don't have a certain motive; only a likely motive as per the SPD according to press reports.

    Essentially we are at an impasse. The cops will not talk about it, the media/press will not report about it, the garage floor remains uncored, Cox plays games with a phony alibi, and we go over and over the same ground. My own unprofessional opinion is that the most telling clues are to be found in the Cox letters and interview. Until proven otherwise, I would place him as the likely perpetrator or ringleader.
    Likely because he is a criminal? Likely because of why? Ringleader? Gotta know some associates to have a ringleader. There is nothing to even tie him to the crime scene or the women, so until something is proven regarding Cox, he is just another suspect. He is the guy we know the least about.

    I believe that none of the original suspects were ELIMINATED. They would not have been part of the latter reviews and grand jury proceedings if they were. No credible source has ever said they were cleared. The only one that was eliminated as a suspect was Kovaks because it was impossible for him to have done it. They may have not been the focus after the first couple of weeks. Even Bartt was grilled by the police in 96 as he told the NL.

    I have never believed the Cox south location, I think it could use some more information to make it a credible lead. GPR scans for bodies are about as reliable as polygraphs for suspects. Sometimes they are right sometimes not.

  18. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Hurricane View Post
    Maybe it gets lost in the semantics somewhere but I don’t think that the N-L ever alleged that Bartt stabbed his sister with a fork. If you have an article that states such could you post the date of publication?
    Well, in the article below, Bartt referenced Suzie being stabbed with a fork, so it can be assumed the reporter brought it up. There must have been a source that the reporter got it from. Being "stabbed with a fork" or "having bruises all over" didn't just materialize out of thin air. Suzie or her mother more then likely told someone about the fight and just because there are no medical records doesn't prove anything. The wound could have been superficial and didn't require medical attention or Suzie didn't seek medical attention because it was a family matter.

    Whatever way it happened is really immaterial. We do know there was a fight.

    As far as looking further into the kidnapping attempt, what would be the purpose? The police report states that he attempted to forcefully take the girl from the arms of the babysitter several times, that he flicked a cigarette into the child's face, that he was violent while detained and was peppersprayed, that he used foul language in front of women and children, that he threatened bodily harm to those around him, that a stipulation of his probation/parole was that his home be checked for stolen property and obtain counseling for impulse control and anger management.

    I don't need documentation from a hospital or a shrink to prove he's violent and exhibits sociopathic tendencies. It's obvious that he's a violent person and many things point to him being a suspect. I'm looking at a pattern of violence that continues till the present day in Punta Gorda, FL, not a few isolated incidents. The fact that he doesn't even provide support for his own children and has three DUI's doesn't help his case either.

    Instead of me always having to prove and backup my view that he's a very good suspect, how about some proof from someone that he couldn't have done it?

    Like his alibi, for instance. He was drunk on someone's couch, therefore he couldn't have done it? He was fishing at Truman Lake, therefore he coudn't have done it? We've never actually heard exactly what he was doing when the women disappeared. Why all the hush-hush around his alibi? Are we afraid that it might be picked apart?

    News-Leader, Aug. 24, 1992.

    Last spring, Bartt had a fight with his sister that alienated him
    from his mother, who mailed him his birth certificate.
    "Mom chose at that time not to have a relationship with me. Well
    that had happened quite a few times in the past. If we had times
    where we did not get along, we just did not see each other for a
    while. Then when one of us wanted to talk to the other one, we
    called and we talked over our problem. We always gave each other
    space we needed during the time that we felt either person stepped
    on the other person."

    Bartt dismisses as "rumors" that the fight with Suzie involved a
    stabbing with a fork, or that Suzie was badly bruised.


    "There was no fork. There was an argument over the stereo because I
    had the volume too loud. We had a little shoving match. Suzie and I
    had moved into a house together and there was a bunch of extenuating
    circumstances why it didn't work out. There was some boyfriend
    problems. There were some partying problems on my part. There was
    a situation of me being 28 and Suzie being 18. We jumped into it
    too fast, and it didn't work out. And Mom expected me to be the
    protector and to bend my life. Then "48 Hours" or somebody else
    said something to me about my sister having bruises all over here.
    There's no way."
    News-Leader, June 21, 1992.

    "In some ways, Streeter was not a typical teen-ager. She moved out
    of her mother's home at least twice. Last summer she lived for
    about three months with her boyfriend, Mike Kovacs, 17, at his
    grandmother's home. In September, she moved back to her mother's
    apartment… "
    Early this spring she moved in with her brother, Bartt Streeter,
    27. After a fight about two weeks later, she moved out, friends
    say. Both times she came back to her mom's home. Friends of both
    Streeter and Sherrill Levitt say the mother-daughter relationship
    was sometimes troubled.

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  20. #14
    Anyone know who this is? He entered the house early in the day? Alone? Before Henson and Kirby who entered later in the day at 12:30 pm?

    If Henson, Kirby, Streeter, McCall and Appleby were the only ones going to Branson, who would this other young male friend be? And why the anonymity?

    A young male friend of the girls has given various accounts of the
    events he recalls between 8 a.m. and 9 p.m. on June 7. He was one
    of those who entered Levitt's house early in the day apparently
    looking for the women. "We pretty well cleared all that up,"
    Worsham said of the friend's accounts. "He was simply confused on
    some times as to where he was."

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    Quote Originally Posted by tangledweb View Post
    Anyone know who this is? He entered the house early in the day? Alone? Before Henson and Kirby who entered later in the day at 12:30 pm?

    If Henson, Kirby, Streeter, McCall and Appleby were the only ones going to Branson, who would this other young male friend be? And why the anonymity?
    I was never under the impression that only those people were going to Branson. I could be mistaken, but it sounded more like a larger group.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tangledweb View Post
    Well, in the article below, Bartt referenced Suzie being stabbed with a fork, so it can be assumed the reporter brought it up. There must have been a source that the reporter got it from. Being "stabbed with a fork" or "having bruises all over" didn't just materialize out of thin air. Suzie or her mother more then likely told someone about the fight and just because there are no medical records doesn't prove anything. The wound could have been superficial and didn't require medical attention or Suzie didn't seek medical attention because it was a family matter.

    Whatever way it happened is really immaterial. We do know there was a fight.

    As far as looking further into the kidnapping attempt, what would be the purpose?
    The police report states that he attempted to forcefully take the girl from the arms of the babysitter several times, that he flicked a cigarette into the child's face, that he was violent while detained and was peppersprayed, that he used foul language in front of women and children, that he threatened bodily harm to those around him, that a stipulation of his probation/parole was that his home be checked for stolen property and obtain counseling for impulse control and anger management.

    I don't need documentation from a hospital or a shrink to prove he's violent and exhibits sociopathic tendencies. It's obvious that he's a violent person and many things point to him being a suspect. I'm looking at a pattern of violence that continues till the present day in Punta Gorda, FL, not a few isolated incidents. The fact that he doesn't even provide support for his own children and has three DUI's doesn't help his case either.

    Instead of me always having to prove and backup my view that he's a very good suspect, how about some proof from someone that he couldn't have done it?
    Like his alibi, for instance. He was drunk on someone's couch, therefore he couldn't have done it? He was fishing at Truman Lake, therefore he coudn't have done it? We've never actually heard exactly what he was doing when the women disappeared. Why all the hush-hush around his alibi? Are we afraid that it might be picked apart?
    You are free to believe whatever you choose. I want to deal only in facts, not rumors. Some of Suzie’s best friends are on record as saying that there was no stabbing or bruising at the time of what amounted to a shoving match between her and Bartt; and that Suzie did not sustain any injuries; certainly not any puncture injuries as a result of their fight. My research has not uncovered any facts that would substantiate the rumor of the stabbing (and by the way it was being told at one time that the stabbing was with a knife). The last time this alleged stabbing came up in thread #3 here on WS Kathee said that it didn’t happen either. You don’t know that the N-L asked Bartt about it, as you assume, and that if he had not responded to the rumors of him having stabbed his sister when he made his comment then you would not know anything about it at all. But if you want to continue to believe it, be my guest.

    I still would recommend that you look into it further in order to get to the truth as to what really happened there. The fact that you believe that he is violent and a sociopath in his post-abduction behavior and he may very well be, has no bearing on this case involving his mother and sister and would probably not be admissible in a court of law.

    If it is your theory that he committed this crime then it is up to you to present your evidence as it would be presented in a court of law, as it pertains to this case. To just say “I have a theory, prove me wrong” gets us nowhere. No one has time for that.

    All of these kinds of rumors have been looked into immensely by LE and news investigators in an effort to try and prove them or not. And suspects too. I traveled some distance to look at a court record file and was required to sign a log sheet that was kept in the file so that court records could keep track of who had been into the file. As I signed it I noticed that the last person to sign in was someone from KY-3 News in 1996. So more than four years after this crime occurred theories were still being looked into by people who cared about getting to the truth and solving this case. I knew from that then that what I was working on was probably not a novel idea.

  23. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Trooogrit View Post
    I was never under the impression that only those people were going to Branson. I could be mistaken, but it sounded more like a larger group.
    That is possible.

    Last spring, Bartt had a fight with his sister that alienated him
    from his mother, who mailed him his birth certificate.
    "Mom chose at that time not to have a relationship with me. Well that had happened quite a few times in the past. If we had times where we did not get along, we just did not see each other for a while. Then when one of us wanted to talk to the other one, we called and we talked over our problem. We always gave each other space we needed during the time that we felt either person stepped
    on the other person."
    Just "a shoving match" over a loud stereo caused his mother to mail him his birth certificate and be alienated from him? Mailing someone their birth certificate as a form of alienation sounds too corny and made up to me, especially since he was already 28 years old. Couple that with him throwing in all the other reasons in that interview about why they didn't get along sounds like a smokescreen and a subject changer to me and has nothing to do with the fork incident.

    She alienated him quite a few times in the past? Why? Was he that much of a problem? I wonder what the reasons were for all those other problems?

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  25. #18
    You are free to believe whatever you choose. I want to deal only in facts, not rumors. Some of Suzie’s best friends are on record as saying that there was no stabbing or bruising at the time of what amounted to a shoving match between her and Bartt; and that Suzie did not sustain any injuries -Hurricane
    It's no more a rumor than Bartt's alibi is. There are no publicly-documented facts on his alibi so that would also stand to be a rumor.

    Putting all that aside, the Vegas incident is documented.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tangledweb View Post
    Mailing someone their birth certificate as a form of alienation sounds too corny and made up to me, especially since he was already 28 years old.
    Perhaps when Sherrill took Suzie’s side of the argument Bartt threatened his mother with moving away and she mailed him his birth certificate as a way of her defusing the threat. Perhaps Bartt was already contemplating moving from Missouri that spring. Perhaps Sherrill had came across the birth certificate during the recent move into 1717 and decided at age 28 Bartt should be responsible for it and mailed it to him. There is absolutely no way to know what her mailing the birth certificate to him meant.

    Again, here is some of the evidence against the rumor of the stabbing:

    Some of Suzie’s best friends are on record as saying that there was no stabbing or bruising;

    That Suzie did not sustain any injuries.

    I have not uncovered any facts that would substantiate the rumor of the stabbing.

    From her research Kathee said that it didn’t happen either.

    Where is there any evidence proving that this is anything more than just a rumor?

  27. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by tangledweb View Post
    It's no more a rumor than Bartt's alibi is. There are no publicly-documented facts on his alibi so that would also stand to be a rumor.
    What Bartt gave LE as his alibi may not be true, but it is not rumor. Some of the alleged alibis that you have listed probably are rumor unless you can document their sources.

    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/rumor

    1. A piece of unverified information of uncertain origin usually spread by word of mouth.
    2. Unverified information received from another; hearsay.

  28. #21
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    Bart has had his problems, there is no doubt. He definitely has a problem behaving recklessly and violently while drunk. The Springfield Three abduction does not appear to be the act of an "out of control" alcoholic. It appears to be a planned and well executed crime. Perhaps, when sober, Bart can be an effective criminal but nothing I have seen or read has lead me to that conclusion. Bart is a "suspect" because of his relationship to 2 of the victims. There is a SOP of investigating these sorts of suspects. (How thouroughly was this done to Bart and all the others?)

    Mule, you seem to have some information on Cox you are unable to share with us. That is unfortunate because it puts a damper on the conversation. What is the point of speculation if someone out there really knows the answer? I don't see Cox as a stronger suspect than any of the other Springfields lowlifes, but then I don't "know" what you "know".

    This just leads back to my argument that so much time has elapsed that there is no value in "holding back" information. The best chance the SPD has of solving it now is to release what information they have in a manner that will generate maximum interest and publicity and hope that it gets people talking.

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  30. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missouri Mule View Post
    As a general rule of thumb alibis by parents are worthless. Of course he had opportunity since he had no alibi.

    The motive would be evident if you had the information I have.

    I regret to say that I'm not willing to endlessly nitpick the subject of Cox.
    Where does your “general rule of thumb” come from? Can you quote a criminology or law book or journal to support your claim or is this just like everything else, just your opinion although you don’t state it as so?

    If the motive is evident with the information that you have then why do you continuously complain that we don’t have a motive?

    If you are not willing to discuss the facts and circumstantial evidence concerning Cox then quit bringing it up how he is SPD’s number one suspect. You have already said that you have no circumstantial evidence to make your claim against him; you failed to name anyone within SPD who places Cox as their number one suspect; and you claim to have all these reliable sources giving you insight yet you complain endlessly that SPD won’t discuss this case.

    If asking for facts and evidence is nitpicking then we will never get anywhere on here.

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  32. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missouri Mule View Post
    As a general rule of thumb alibis by parents are worthless. Of course he had opportunity since he had no alibi.

    The motive would be evident if you had the information I have.

    I regret to say that I'm not willing to endlessly nitpick the subject of Cox.
    Well considering no case has been made against him, the information is useless. There is no relationship between Cox and Garrison, that I know for a fact. THere is no relationship to rings and people at a particular address either, that is concocted information. That I know for a fact. So you must have something that is new and rellevent and you should follow it up.

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    Hurricane & Mule, you two have invested the shoe leather in the case and have opened it up for the rest of us who do not live in the area. If this thread leads to some "break" in the case; you two will deserve the credit. I hate to see animosity emerge since it seems to undermine any thread it infects. Mule, any time a poster indicates that he has information that he can not disclose, hackles will be raised. You have to expect it.

  34. #25
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    Not to change the subject or anything to interject this rather useless tidbit but I noticed a new comment on the True Crime Diary's write about this case that was posted on July 9th. Poster claims they wrote Cox and letter in prison and he wrote them back.

    http://www.truecrimediary.com/index....=comments#view
    As a Florida resident it enrages me that if only the Florida Supreme Court, which is stacked with bleeding heart liberals looking to overturn every death sentence, had not allowed Cox to be released all his subsequent victims would have been spared including and most likely Mrs. Levitt, Miss Streeter, and Miss McCall. I contacted Cox through the Texas Department of Corrections and urged him to commit one decent act in his life and at least disclose the location of the bodies, if he truly has that information, as to give the suffering families a small measure of grace and peace. He wrote back asking for money and photos of teenage girls in bikinis. What an inhumane disgusting animal!
    'The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated'
    --Ghandi


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