Spitballing on intent

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Over the last few days, my friend HOTYH has been hammering away on the idea that whomever put the cord around JB's neck intended to kill her. Maybe I'm misreading him, but this assumes that they knew she was still alive when it happened.

For purposes of this thread, let's assume that the intent was there.

From an RDI perspective, how could this come about? Specifically, why would one of the Rs (or both) intend to kill her?

The key here is spitballing, i.e., speculation. I'm just looking for ideas.

I'll start the ball. If I were pinned down on this, there's one scenario I could hold on to. I call it the "Snow White" scenario.

Most of us know the story of Snow White: when the Wicked Queen found out that she wasn't the most beautiful of all anymore, she set out to kill the one who was: her daughter.

I can think of some more, but that's as good a place to start as I can figure.

Let's have at it.
 
There was some sexual abuse going on and someone was afraid that she was going to tell all. In fact, if memory serves, one of the journalists on this case spoke to a classmate who claimed that JBR died because 'she was going to tell the secret.' (Or words to that effect).

Someone needed attention and how better to get attention than by your child being murdered/kidnapped? Sort of a radical Munchausens by Proxy.


In the realm of the Twilight Zone, but if a Ramsey had been some sort of religious fanatic, maybe JBR was sacrificed to pay for Patsy's return to health. I can't see this in a million years but I know it has been posited by one or two people....
 
Snow White was the Wicked Queen's STEPDAUGHTER.
No offense to the stepdaughters or stepmothers here, but it is a different relationship than mother and daughter. Many stepmothers feel little or no attachment to their stepkids. And vice-versa.
And Snow White was a work of fiction. (like DOI)

BUT if we are spitballing here....I'd have to say that for PR to deliberately strangle JBR to be sure she was dead after the head bash would work for me only with a seriously mentally ill Patsy. Patsy had her issues and was maybe not the most balanced of mothers, but IMO she was not mentally ill. Meds played a part in her behavior, to be sure. Personality too.
But to me, there are 2 ways I could see the strangulation being deliberate.
To stop JB from telling about the sexual abuse OR to be sure she was dead after the head bash, which would have left her brain damaged even in a layman's opinion.
 
Going a bit off topic.
IDI/accident/cover-up.I think it's clear to most of you that the rn is bs.If we're dealing with IDI then he probably wrote it to mislead the police and divert attention from the real motive of the visit(sexual abuse,which happened before,he probably was one of those who had a key to the house).He used items from the house because he didn't came prepared to kill her,that was not his intention,sexual assault was.A close friend could have known she likes pineapple,would have known about the basement.Something went wrong though,JB was going to tell the secret to her parents or God know what happened and he smothers her or bashes her head out of panic.Then he realizes he has to blame this on someone else.He ties her arms,puts duct tape on her mouth,strangles her with the garotte to cover up traces on her neck.He starts writing the rn ,he knew exactly where to find pen and paper,he knew about JR's bonus.
If we're talking about obvious things,well this is the IDI scenario that makes the most sense to me.Can we talk about premeditation in this case?Did he intend to kill her?

BUT everything I said so far is going down the toilet cause of the DNA that didn't match any of the friends/people the R's knew.
 
Sophie said:
There was some sexual abuse going on and someone was afraid that she was going to tell all. In fact, if memory serves, one of the journalists on this case spoke to a classmate who claimed that JBR died because 'she was going to tell the secret.' (Or words to that effect).

Someone needed attention and how better to get attention than by your child being murdered/kidnapped? Sort of a radical Munchausens by Proxy.In the realm of the Twilight Zone, but if a Ramsey had been some sort of religious fanatic, maybe JBR was sacrificed to pay for Patsy's return to health. I can't see this in a million years but I know it has been posited by one or two people....
Click to expand...

@bold
interesting idea,was thinking about it the other day after reading about that mother(happened back in the 70's) who killed all her 9 kids,experts said she was suffering from MSBP
 
madeleine said:
@bold
interesting idea,was thinking about it the other day after reading about that mother(happened back in the 70's) who killed all her 9 kids,experts said she was suffering from MSBP
Click to expand...


Hi Madeleine,
It wasn't by any chance the Marybeth Tinning case you were reading? Another thing which always makes me think of Munchausens is the sheer number of paediatrician visits made by JBR. In all fairness, I know that a lot of people have stated that there is nothing abnormal about this but if my 6 year-old was needing the doctor that frequently, I'd be frantic....I guess that's a perception affected by personal experience.
 
Sophie said:
Hi Madeleine,
It wasn't by any chance the Marybeth Tinning case you were reading? Another thing which always makes me think of Munchausens is the sheer number of paediatrician visits made by JBR. In all fairness, I know that a lot of people have stated that there is nothing abnormal about this but if my 6 year-old was needing the doctor that frequently, I'd be frantic....I guess that's a perception affected by personal experience.
Click to expand...


Yep,Tinning.
The things people do for some attention.And yeah,IMO PR was a woman that constantly needed it.
 
madeleine said:
Going a bit off topic.
IDI/accident/cover-up.I think it's clear to most of you that the rn is bs.If we're dealing with IDI then he probably wrote it to mislead the police and divert attention from the real motive of the visit(sexual abuse,which happened before,he probably was one of those who had a key to the house).He used items from the house because he didn't came prepared to kill her,that was not his intention,sexual assault was.A close friend could have known she likes pineapple,would have known about the basement.Something went wrong though,JB was going to tell the secret to her parents or God know what happened and he smothers her or bashes her head out of panic.Then he realizes he has to blame this on someone else.He ties her arms,puts duct tape on her mouth,strangles her with the garotte to cover up traces on her neck.He starts writing the rn ,he knew exactly where to find pen and paper,he knew about JR's bonus.
If we're talking about obvious things,well this is the IDI scenario that makes the most sense to me.Can we talk about premeditation in this case?Did he intend to kill her?

BUT everything I said so far is going down the toilet cause of the DNA that didn't match any of the friends/people the R's knew.
Click to expand...

I think that`s a plausible scenario that explains the signs of sexual abuse, the strange RN written in the house, objects from the house used in killing, little or no signs of forced entry and knowing about John`s bonus. Is it possible that this person was not tested? If the theory goes down the toilet because of DNA, so does RDI. ;)
 
I'll start the ball. If I were pinned down on this, there's one scenario I could hold on to. I call it the "Snow White" scenario.

I don`t think the evil Queen would have put Snow White to beauty pagents and emphasized her beauty. Remember Cinderella- the stepmother wanted her own girls to be beautiful, but made Cinderella wear rags.

(I actually don`t like those stories and the "lesson" in them- that stepmothers are bad and selfish and a womans worth is dependent on beauty.)
 
Patsy's comment, "WE didn't mean for this to happen" (emphasis mine) along with other evidence (chronic sexual abuse,fiber evidence,JR asking for his golf bag,etc.),implies this was something that happened when JR was abusing JB,and that Patsy knew it was occurring,but they didn't mean for JB to end up dead over it.

only thing about that is,there is plenty of evidence against Patsy,so that makes me wonder if she walked in while this was happening,and just exploded in anger right then,striking JB on the head,or flinging her about.remember that JR did have a mark on his face shortly afterwards;this leads me to believe he was in some sort of altercation in regards to the murder,somehow.

whatever happened,I believe they were BOTH involved in the staging of the crime and the decision NOT to call 911,(after JB received the head injury),due to the chronic abuse.Therefore they are both guilty of murder.
 
madeleine said:
BUT everything I said so far is going down the toilet cause of the DNA that didn't match any of the friends/people the R's knew.
Click to expand...

Could be.

It would probably be helpful to know if the DNA in JBR's underwear is the same tissue type as the skin cell touch DNA found on the waistband. The DA may already know this but isn't sharing all the details. You know, ongoing investigation and all that.
 
Holdontoyourhat said:
Could be.

It would probably be helpful to know if the DNA in JBR's underwear is the same tissue type as the skin cell touch DNA found on the waistband. The DA may already know this but isn't sharing all the details. You know, ongoing investigation and all that.
Click to expand...

I thought they closed the case?

Now with that out of the way, if JR was sexually abusing JB, then I can see the strangulation being intentional. JB could have started yelling that she was going to tell mom and whoever else would listen to her. And what JMO said could very well have happened. I'm still reading up on all of the evidence, so please excuse my stupidity regarding this case, but from what I remember; they never could tell how long (if any) the sexual abuse had happened. I had heard that that part was all part of the IDI, that it was part of the staged scene.

Thankx guys!
 
SuperDave said:
Over the last few days, my friend HOTYH has been hammering away on the idea that whomever put the cord around JB's neck intended to kill her. Maybe I'm misreading him, but this assumes that they knew she was still alive when it happened.
Click to expand...

'put' the cord?

Did somebody 'put' the cord around JB's neck, or did somebody 'tie a cord tightly' around her neck?

It doesn't do the case any justice to understate or overstate, JMO.

Makes sense, tie a cord tightly and the victim will asphyxiate. The cord was tied tightly, and JBR asphyxiated according to page 1 of the coroner's report. Its not rocket science, no need to read anything between these lines because there's nothing else there. To repeat, it would've been better for RDI garrote staging idea if there were no petechial hemorrhaging, or if the coroner did not state that JBR died by asphyxiation.

Meanwhile I'm not hammering away on that idea. I'm instead emphasizing that this conclusion is the most obvious one, compared to the others. The idea that JBR was mistaken for dead when the garrote was tied tightly is not the most apparent conclusion given these facts.

Personally I wouldn't give the garrote staging idea any credence.
 
Mysteeri said:
I think that`s a plausible scenario that explains the signs of sexual abuse, the strange RN written in the house, objects from the house used in killing, little or no signs of forced entry and knowing about John`s bonus. Is it possible that this person was not tested? If the theory goes down the toilet because of DNA, so does RDI. ;)
Click to expand...

No,it doesn't.
Unknown dna+missing phone records could mean R had an accomplice.
 
Holdontoyourhat said:
'put' the cord?

Did somebody 'put' the cord around JB's neck, or did somebody 'tie a cord tightly' around her neck?

It doesn't do the case any justice to understate or overstate, JMO.
Click to expand...

No need to spilt hairs, HOTYH. I'm sure everyone knows what I meant.

Makes sense, tie a cord tightly and the victim will asphyxiate. The cord was tied tightly, and JBR asphyxiated according to page 1 of the coroner's report. Its not rocket science, no need to read anything between these lines because there's nothing else there. To repeat, it would've been better for RDI garrote staging idea if there were no petechial hemorrhaging, or if the coroner did not state that JBR died by asphyxiation.
Click to expand...

That's why I started this thread.

Meanwhile I'm not hammering away on that idea. I'm instead emphasizing that this conclusion is the most obvious one, compared to the others.
Click to expand...

Same difference.

The idea that JBR was mistaken for dead when the garrote was tied tightly is not the most apparent conclusion given these facts.
Click to expand...

"Given these facts" and nothing else. But that's why I started this thread to start with.

Personally I wouldn't give the garrote staging idea any credence.
Click to expand...

I know YOU wouldn't. But I would. Not only me.
 
SuperDave said:
No need to spilt hairs, HOTYH. I'm sure everyone knows what I meant.



That's why I started this thread.



Same difference.



"Given these facts" and nothing else. But that's why I started this thread to start with.



I know YOU wouldn't. But I would. Not only me.
Click to expand...


Dave, your patience is worthy of beatification. He apparently listens to you. Will you please explain to him the difference between a 'twister' (copyright, John Ramsey) or 'garrote' and a ligature?
 
Holdontoyourhat said:
Could be.

It would probably be helpful to know if the DNA in JBR's underwear is the same tissue type as the skin cell touch DNA found on the waistband. The DA may already know this but isn't sharing all the details. You know, ongoing investigation and all that.
Click to expand...

Indeed and had anyone in the DA's office fully understood the latest technique for DNA testing and its limitations, they'd have realised that JBR scratching or even touching the waistband then having a scratch 'down below' could have resulted in that transfer - and if we are to believe that she was in bed for a while before her death as IDI tend to believe, then that becomes even more likely...
 
Sophie said:
Dave, your patience is worthy of beatification. He apparently listens to you. Will you please explain to him the difference between a 'twister' (copyright, John Ramsey) or 'garrote' and a ligature?
Click to expand...

If I thought it would do any good.

But here goes:

A true garrote is a cord (rope, wire, whatever) with a handle on each end. Its design allows it to be quickly thrown over the head and tightened around the neck quickly. It's fast, silent and efficient. That's what makes it so useful for Mafia executioners and special ops teams and terrorists.

The ligature here is essentially a glorified noose. It would take a little bit to make, depending on skill level. Once applied, it would not be easily removed, unlike a true garrote, which is designed to be removed as quickly as it was put on so you can move on to your next target.
 
perhaps a thread (after this one appears to be done)on the intent of the head injury would be a good idea? JAT.No rush,but I've always wondered if it was truly an accident,or was there intent to kill behind it.
 
Tessa2009 said:
I thought they closed the case?

Now with that out of the way, if JR was sexually abusing JB, then I can see the strangulation being intentional. JB could have started yelling that she was going to tell mom and whoever else would listen to her. And what JMO said could very well have happened.
Click to expand...
not to change the subject (just a quick comment)..IMO,since JB had the head injury (which seems to have occurred bf the garrote was applied),and JR had a mark on his face,and Patsy had nothing on her,(at least nothing visible)..from that I would deduce that Patsy was the one who held the weapon (the flashlight,IMO) and inflicted the head injury.And JR got in between them somehow.JAT.
 
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