Cause of death

Hola - it's been almost a year since I've posted here - although I've popped in from time to time. I was at the end of the line with this sad case & just stopped...for awhile.

It's the thread about Burke that got me thinking again...something isn't right there. It's so tempting & so easy to see the Ramseys behavior stemming from the desire to protect him. The main reason I don't believe he was too intrinsically involved is that I don't think a 9 year old would hold up under questioning....however, I also don't think a 9 year old would 'want to get on with my life', etc.

So, I am very sorry because I'm sure this is covered somewhere - but, it seems that the cause of death is crucial to any theory.

1. Head wound - I read it didn't bleed or her head didn't have blood & there was no swelling. It was suspected until autopsy. Now, blood could be cleaned up - but, why would there not be swelling?

2. Strangulation. From what I understand there is evidence that this was indeed cause of death - therefore head-wound was after death (and rules out, to some extent, an 'accident'). By the by, is it remotely possible this head wound was days or a day or so before death that night? Just wondering...

What were the circumstances of Burke hitting her with a golf-club?

I cannot forget that 911 was called - was it that night, christmas, before her death, or the prior...?
I also wonder if Burke & J.benet were in basement together at her time of death regardless of Burke's role - they were to see 'santa' that night..and wandering around the house & playing in the basement are certainly 'kid' things to do. There were still presents in the basement for family, correct?

Anyway - thanks for indulging me in jogging my memory......!


(I haven't looked at my profile - I couldn't get that darned picture off which I didn't intend...)

I read from elsewhere that indeed the official cause of death was strangulation. It seems most here believe the head wound was prior to strangulation under the assumption she was already dead (strangulation applied later as a 'cover-up').

The question remains though if head wound was prior to strangulation why was there no visible blood (head wounds bleed profusely, usually, if the skin is broken) and why was there no swelling - ? These two issues, blood & swelling suggest head wound was after death....does anyone know how long swelling would be present after death - ?

Now this got to me too,but the coroner was shock of the fracture..So this says there was no marks found to give any evidence of a head wound...Now about the swelling I think there was some..

Did they find any blood in her hair?

If you take a look at the skull fracture/displacement in JBR's autopsy photos you can clearly see that the blow to her head did not happen days prior to her death. There is no way that JBR would be opening Christmas presents and visiting the Whites with a wound of that nature (she had a crack in her skull running approximately 8 inches and a big piece of skull was displaced, if I recall correctly). Apparently, the horrible head wound was not readily apparent until her autopsy. But I think all the doctors agree that while the wound was not obvious to a layperson that JBR would have been quickly rendered unconscious by the blow and slowly dying.

Thanks for your replies!

If the head wound was first but did not cause death that leaves the R.'s deciding to go ahead and actually kill their daughter & create a cover-up. I do not think it's plausible that they didn't realize she was still alive. Not too hard to find a pulse. And if you whacked your daughter that severely I'd imagine you'd be praising god you didn't manage to kill her accidentally - and that leaves them needing an excuse to cover the head wound up. They were very powerful people & I don't think it would be too hard for them to get through whatever protection services & a couple of interviews with police, etc. Deciding to go ahead & actually kill & create a cover-up is much riskier.

I believe she was being strangled when she was hit over the head. I believe I read that someone in the case thought she was originally strangled via her shirt collar/turtle neck & the ligature was place later...? I imagine the situation is still more or less a rage attack - whether from J. P. or B - ?

It is quite possible the golf-clubs were taken from the house, not because there was soiled, bloody clothing in it, but because the club was what she was hit with.....although if she were being strangled with her shirt collar & someone wanted to 'subdue' her it would be hard to manipulate the golf club or maybe to get it out of the bag? I suppose an adult, or even child, could just hold it close to the 'head' of the club & swing it ... Just some thoughts.....

I thought it looked like she was hit by a golf club from behind. The prep swinging the club like you would an ax. The force of the blow making that hole and cracking the skull from the top of her head to the bottom.

Hi Jane,

I don't know if you ever read the Bonita papers ([ame="http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=5858"]The Bonita Papers - Forums For Justice[/ame]) I found lots of interesting things there. #6 talks about how the flashlight test matched the injury, even more so than any of the golf club heels tested.

Jane Osa said:

Hola - it's been almost a year since I've posted here - although I've popped in from time to time. I was at the end of the line with this sad case & just stopped...for awhile.

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Welcome back! I missed you. And I can sympathize.

It's the thread about Burke that got me thinking again...something isn't right there. It's so tempting & so easy to see the Ramseys behavior stemming from the desire to protect him. The main reason I don't believe he was too intrinsically involved is that I don't think a 9 year old would hold up under questioning....however, I also don't think a 9 year old would 'want to get on with my life', etc.

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I turned from that path a long time ago.

So, I am very sorry because I'm sure this is covered somewhere - but, it seems that the cause of death is crucial to any theory.

1. Head wound - I read it didn't bleed or her head didn't have blood & there was no swelling. It was suspected until autopsy. Now, blood could be cleaned up - but, why would there not be swelling?

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You read wrong, I'm afraid. There were 3 separate areas of bleeding inside the head and the brain was swollen so much it flattened against the skull. Also, the blow didn't break the skin, which is why there was no blood at the scene.

2. Strangulation. From what I understand there is evidence that this was indeed cause of death - therefore head-wound was after death (and rules out, to some extent, an 'accident').

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One does not follow the other. The strangulation killed her, but there is a significant belief among pathologists that she was near death from the head wound before she was choked the death.

By the by, is it remotely possible this head wound was days or a day or so before death that night? Just wondering...

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Well, there have been cases where people have sustained severe head trauma and still been alive, even up and around for several hours or even a day before collapsing, but highly unlikely.

I cannot forget that 911 was called - was it that night, christmas, before her death, or the prior...?

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Two days earlier.

Anyway - thanks for indulging me in jogging my memory......!

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No sweat.

Jane Osa said:

Thanks for your replies!

If the head wound was first but did not cause death that leaves the R.'s deciding to go ahead and actually kill their daughter & create a cover-up. I do not think it's plausible that they didn't realize she was still alive.

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Not just plausible, but likely, imo.

Not too hard to find a pulse.

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Harder than most people think, especially when the person looking isn't thinking very clearly AND the victim has most likely gone into shock, which would reduce the heart rate considerably.

And if you whacked your daughter that severely I'd imagine you'd be praising god you didn't manage to kill her accidentally - and that leaves them needing an excuse to cover the head wound up.

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My feeling is that they figured they DID kill her accidentally.

They were very powerful people & I don't think it would be too hard for them to get through whatever protection services & a couple of interviews with police, etc. Deciding to go ahead & actually kill & create a cover-up is much riskier.

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But it gets a lot more attention.

I believe she was being strangled when she was hit over the head. I believe I read that someone in the case thought she was originally strangled via her shirt collar/turtle neck & the ligature was place later...? I imagine the situation is still more or less a rage attack - whether from J. P. or B - ?

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It's been said.

Thanks Superdave!

I do believe that strangulation/head trauma was almost simultaneous - but, I understand the swelling/bleeding issue now.

Is there truth to the claim that she was originally strangled with her shirt collar (which was a turtleneck?) - ? And the ligature was later placed on her but it was strictly staging, not the murder weapon?

Does anyone know what the circumstances were when Burke hit her with a golf club in the past?

Thanks.

Jane Osa said:

Thanks Superdave!

I do believe that strangulation/head trauma was almost simultaneous - but, I understand the swelling/bleeding issue now.

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You're most welcome, my friend.

Is there truth to the claim that she was originally strangled with her shirt collar (which was a turtleneck?) - ?

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That one's kind of up in the air, Jane Osa. Sorry I can't be more help.

And the ligature was later placed on her but it was strictly staging, not the murder weapon?

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More likely it was put on as staging and killed her anyway because of the design. But that would take a lot more explaining, and I hope you're up for it.

Does anyone know what the circumstances were when Burke hit her with a golf club in the past?

Thanks.

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I heard it was an accident. You know kids, always getting into trouble. Heaven knows I did.

The autopsy states cause of death as "Ligature strangulation ASSOCIATED with cerebrocranial trauma". The coroner was surprised to find the skull fracture- there were no visible signs of it.
If you read the report, it noted only mild narrowing and flattening of the sulci and gyri (they are the little lobes in the brain and the spaces between them). This shows that there was not much swelling in the brain and the blood that was found was limited to subdural (under the dura mater, the membrane covering the brain) and subarachnoid (under the arachnoid space near the back of the skull). These things indicate she did not live long enough for there to be more severe swelling. There was also noted that there was no signs of organization of the wound (the body trying to heal itself). This type of organization, which includes clotting and the rush of white cells to the wound site) happens relatively soon after an injury.
There has long been speculation that the large, triangular abrasion (red mark) on JB's neck was from being strangled with her own shirt collar (being twisted hard).
When BR hit JB with the golf club a few years before, it was considered an accident. Not much was said about the circumstances surrounding it.

DeeDee249 said:

The autopsy states cause of death as "Ligature strangulation ASSOCIATED with cerebrocranial trauma". The coroner was surprised to find the skull fracture- there were no visible signs of it.
If you read the report, it noted only mild narrowing and flattening of the sulci and gyri (they are the little lobes in the brain and the spaces between them). This shows that there was not much swelling in the brain and the blood that was found was limited to subdural (under the dura mater, the membrane covering the brain) and subarachnoid (under the arachnoid space near the back of the skull). These things indicate she did not live long enough for there to be more severe swelling. There was also noted that there was no signs of organization of the wound (the body trying to heal itself). This type of organization, which includes clotting and the rush of white cells to the wound site) happens relatively soon after an injury.

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So there was not much swelling to the brain because of the lack of blood to the brain during the strangulation. I would imagine that limiting the blood flood to the brain would also limit the swelling to the brain. I think this is more proof that JBR did not receive a head wound and lay around for an hour before the strangulation began (if it did not begin before or simultaneous to the head wound).

I'm not a doctor but I'd think that any substantial length of time with a wound of that nature would result in severe swelling (without restricting blood flow to the brain).

RDI scenario example/speculation:

JBR sustains a head wound as a result of a scuffle over bed-wetting. Perhaps JBR soiled her panties yet again and Patsy (overwhelmed with the week's activities and schedule) struck JBR with an object or JBR fell and hit her head in the bathroom while wiggling over being roughly cleaned in her vaginal area. Perhaps JBR was rendered immediately unconscious by the blow (and obvious heard "crack" as I think the head would have made a cracking sound). Perhaps Patsy slapped JBR's face or shook her multiple times to get her to wake up. While JBR laid unconscious perhaps Patsy realized that, although the head trauma was not obvious, that JBR had sustained a fatal wound.

If this scenario comes anywhere close to the truth, then the resulting strangulation could not have occured hours after the head wound because I think the swelling would have been more prominent. Under the "accidental head wound leading to coverup scenario" Patsy or John would have had to start strangling JBR and doing the "coverup" very soon thereafter.

Thoughts on the head wound/strangulation/swelling timeline?

I'm still digesting some of the new information & adjusting my thoughts. But, lately I've been thinking that Jonbenet & Burke were playing in the basement & Patsy (or possibly John) go down to get them....(kids brought down flashlight with them)....she yells at them to go to bed, etc. B. goes up to bed but Jonbenet runs around, resists, etc. P. catches her by the 'scruff' and starts pulling/dragging her increasing her hold on her shirt, twisting it & while Jonbenet is struggling P. gets increasingly enraged & hits her over the head, Jonbenet slumps over, P. screams, etc. - cover-up then begins.

Now, I can see this scenario with regard to bed-wetting, some sort of sexual abuse confrontation or somehow related to Burke.....

I also think it's possible that P. and John called someone, some-bodies, to come & help....to do what needed to be done - I can't imagine the horror of putting the cord, taping her legs, her mouth, the violation, etc. to your own baby after you've accidentally killed her....this also may explain the 'unknown male' DNA.

Ron Wright said that "20 to 60 minutes elapsed between the skull fracture and the strangulation".
Blows away my theory that it was overkill/rage attack.

I was pretty sure until now that strangulation came first.Am not an expert and this anatomy talk is a bit diffcult for me to understand.That's why I initially agreed with Wecht's theory,made more sense to ME>
But all these swelling/no blood issues (which support the head blow first theory)you guys are talking about make sense too!

What do you do when there are two theories that contradict each other but both make sense?

Theonly1 said:

So there was not much swelling to the brain because of the lack of blood to the brain during the strangulation. I would imagine that limiting the blood flood to the brain would also limit the swelling to the brain. I think this is more proof that JBR did not receive a head wound and lay around for an hour before the strangulation began (if it did not begin before or simultaneous to the head wound).

I'm not a doctor but I'd think that any substantial length of time with a wound of that nature would result in severe swelling (without restricting blood flow to the brain).

RDI scenario example/speculation:

JBR sustains a head wound as a result of a scuffle over bed-wetting. Perhaps JBR soiled her panties yet again and Patsy (overwhelmed with the week's activities and schedule) struck JBR with an object or JBR fell and hit her head in the bathroom while wiggling over being roughly cleaned in her vaginal area. Perhaps JBR was rendered immediately unconscious by the blow (and obvious heard "crack" as I think the head would have made a cracking sound). Perhaps Patsy slapped JBR's face or shook her multiple times to get her to wake up. While JBR laid unconscious perhaps Patsy realized that, although the head trauma was not obvious, that JBR had sustained a fatal wound.

If this scenario comes anywhere close to the truth, then the resulting strangulation could not have occured hours after the head wound because I think the swelling would have been more prominent. Under the "accidental head wound leading to coverup scenario" Patsy or John would have had to start strangling JBR and doing the "coverup" very soon thereafter.

Thoughts on the head wound/strangulation/swelling timeline?

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it's hard to imagine loving parents would do this, this sounds more the work of an idi

Theonly1 said:

So there was not much swelling to the brain because of the lack of blood to the brain during the strangulation. I would imagine that limiting the blood flood to the brain would also limit the swelling to the brain. I think this is more proof that JBR did not receive a head wound and lay around for an hour before the strangulation began (if it did not begin before or simultaneous to the head wound).

I'm not a doctor but I'd think that any substantial length of time with a wound of that nature would result in severe swelling (without restricting blood flow to the brain).

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Not necessarily. Head wounds are a funny thing, especially if shock is involved.

RDI scenario example/speculation:

JBR sustains a head wound as a result of a scuffle over bed-wetting. Perhaps JBR soiled her panties yet again and Patsy (overwhelmed with the week's activities and schedule) struck JBR with an object or JBR fell and hit her head in the bathroom while wiggling over being roughly cleaned in her vaginal area. Perhaps JBR was rendered immediately unconscious by the blow (and obvious heard "crack" as I think the head would have made a cracking sound). Perhaps Patsy slapped JBR's face or shook her multiple times to get her to wake up. While JBR laid unconscious perhaps Patsy realized that, although the head trauma was not obvious, that JBR had sustained a fatal wound.

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Nicely put.

If this scenario comes anywhere close to the truth, then the resulting strangulation could not have occured hours after the head wound because I think the swelling would have been more prominent. Under the "accidental head wound leading to coverup scenario" Patsy or John would have had to start strangling JBR and doing the "coverup" very soon thereafter.

Thoughts on the head wound/strangulation/swelling timeline?

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A few. I'm not sure there's anyone who thinks it was several hours. I think that the cover-up DID begin quickly, perhaps within 20 minutes.

voynich said:

it's hard to imagine loving parents would do this, this sounds more the work of an idi

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Sadly, voynich, it's exactly that mindset that's responsible for this case being in the rotten shape it's in.