Documentary (Jayelles)

Jayelles did you see the JBR documentary on ITV last night. I am not as expert on the case as the posters on this thread but did it shed any new lighjt on the case.

It seemed from this that there were some very dubious individuals that lived very close to the girl who have since dissappeared or died.

This is the only programme I have seen on the case and although from what I had read I had the family guilty this programme changed that for me in that there seems to be more than reasonalble doubt but as I say i know very little else about the case

Pedophiles and or murderers within proximity of ANY crime. Most Pedophiles and murderers ARE on the move. The point is, is there ANY EVIDENCE that links them to the crime? The evidence as we know it at this time ONLY points within the home.

Hugh said:

Jayelles did you see the JBR documentary on ITV last night. I am not as expert on the case as the posters on this thread but did it shed any new lighjt on the case.

It seemed from this that there were some very dubious individuals that lived very close to the girl who have since dissappeared or died.

This is the only programme I have seen on the case and although from what I had read I had the family guilty this programme changed that for me in that there seems to be more than reasonalble doubt but as I say i know very little else about the case

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Yes Hugh, I did see it but I'm going to have to watch it again because I was trying to make notes as I watched it last night to post for our friends in the US

I think they've got to check out these leads. I would ignore nothing. Weren't the guys they interviewed "something else"? Real dodgy characters if you ask me. I find it hard to imagine them breaking into houses and then not taking much. It's quite bizarre.

I do wish Tracey had made a documentary that presented all the facts in an unbiased way though. Perhaps another Brit will follow it up and do a really decent job of presenting the whole case with all the facts instead of making it either entirely pro- or anti-Ramsey. Some bits were also misleading. They stated that she was stungunned as if this were an indisputable fact. They also stated that Helgoth's boots matched the print as if this were also conclusive. They also stated that the police suspected the parents from the get-go because the "parents are always the murderers". That was a daft thing to say. At no time has Tracey ever mentioned the reasons WHY people suspected the parents. So it was a slanted piece of journalism and that is never good journalism.

As I know enough about the case to see that Tracey has been artistic with some of the facts that I AM familiar with, it makes me a little loathe to believe him unconditionally on other points that I'm not familiar with. That's disappointing. There's nothing I like better than a dependable source of information.

It is shocking to find out that paedophiles lived close by and disappeared soon after the murder - never to be interviewed. However, it isn't helpful to have the police demonised as targetting innocent parents when the parents didn't behave in a way that one would expect from innocent people. I think the parents gave the police cause to look closer at them. That is the reason why so many people hate them if you ask me.

There was a woman living close by JonBenet that dressed her daughter up in elaborate costumes and coached sexual expressions, typical of women decades older, into the girl. This woman then had the girl parade in public. The woman also took the girl to a doctor thirty some times in just over a year for bladder complaints. The same woman also speaks of hearing the voice of super-natural beings. She is, of course, Patsy Ramsey, who definitely was in the house.

The makers of the crocumentary have an agenda, this is not journalism, it's story telling. Better yet, it's snake oil peddling.

BrotherMoon said:

There was a woman living close by JonBenet that dressed her daughter up in elagorate costumes and coached sexual expressions, typical of women decades older, into the girl. This woman then had the girl parade in public. The woman also took the girl to a doctor thirty some times in just over a year for bladder complaints. The same woman also speaks of hearing the voice of super-natural beings. She is, of course, Patsy Ramsey, who definitely was in the house.

The makers of the crocumentary have an agenda, this is not journalism, it's story telling. Better yet, it's snake oil peddling.

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http://thewebsafe.tripod.com/09101997bynumabcprimetime.htm

DIANE SAWYER: (voice-over) But what about those reports that JonBenet's pediatrician, Dr. Beuf, saw JonBenet 30 times in three years?

(From taped telephone conversation)

Dr. FRANCESCO BEUF: Before your call, I sat down with her chart and counted. It was 27 times.

DIANE SAWYER: (voice-over) This is the first time Dr. Beuf has gone over his records publicly.

(From taped telephone conversation) And is that unusual to see a child that many times?

Dr. FRANCESCO BEUF: Not with the kinds of problems which this child had. The majority of them were for sinus infections and for colds.

DIANE SAWYER: And by majority you mean?

Dr. FRANCESCO BEUF: Probably 20 of the lot. I counted three in which she'd complained of some pain in urination. And the rest of them were cold, strep throats, sinus infections.

DIANE SAWYER: (voice-over) So many he said, there was some concern about asthma.

(From taped telephone conversation) How many times did you give her a vaginal examination?

Dr. FRANCESCO BEUF: Well, it was five or six times in that three-year period.

DIANE SAWYER: (voice-over) We asked him to specifically review all notes that might pertain. He agreed, citing the frenzy of uninformed speculation. Be warned, these are a doctor's clinical notes about a young patient.

September 1993 -- a call about vaginal redness, possibly associated with recent diarrhea. April 1994 -- a visit about a problem perhaps related to the use of bubble bath, which can be an irritant.

October 1994 -- a routine physical. No problems noted, though some indication of occasional bedwetting. Dr. Beuf says 20 percent to 25 percent of children that age wet the bed.

March 1995 -- abdominal pain and fever. Tests and exam showed no problem.

August 1996 -- another routine physical with a vaginal exam. The doctor said everything checked out as normal. We asked what he made of this number of complaints?

(From taped telephone conversation) Would that be unusual?

Dr. FRANCESCO BEUF: For a child that age, certainly not. They don't wipe themselves very well after they urinate. And it's something which usually is curable by having them take plain water baths or learning to wipe better. But if you have four-year-old kids, you know how hard that is. The amount of vaginitis which I saw on the child was totally consistent with little girls her age.

DIANE SAWYER: If there had been an abrasion involving the hymen, you would have seen it?

Dr. FRANCESCO BEUF: Probably. I can't say absolutely for sure because you don't do a speculum exam on a child that young at least unless it's under anesthesia.

DIANE SAWYER: Did you see in any of these examinations any sign of possible sexual abuse?

Dr. FRANCESCO BEUF: No, and I certainly would have reported it to the social service people if I had. That's something that all of us in pediatrics are very acutely aware of.

DIANE SAWYER: (on camera) And some other notes. Dr. Beuf says he last saw JonBenet Ramsey in November 1996, and that was a checkup for a sinus infection. A couple of other things. Dr. Beuf says he has turned in people he has suspected of physical and sexual abuse in his career, and that he not only looks for physical evidence, but personality changes in the children involved. And he says he saw none of that with JonBenet Ramsey. And PrimeTime consulted other pediatric experts about JonBenet's records, and they agreed with Dr. Beuf's analysis that there was nothing unusual there for a girl her age. ..

I have to disagree..........

As a young girl I suffered from chronic UTI infections (this was from the age of 4 to my late teens),they sometimes were so bad they spread to my kidneys and required hospitalization.
I never once had a vaginal exam (even in the hospital) and I was also certainly never at the doctor 20+ times in three years(EDITED)


Also my oldest daughter (who is 5) had a "bubble bath" problem but never has she had a vaginal exam either ................I have always felt JBR's doctor
was a quack (this confirms it)and that he was very misguided and just out to "protect" the Ramseys(in addition,speaking from expirence Im not going to go into here ,Doctors can and do miss signs of abuse)


The amount of Doctors visits was excessive (either she had asthma or she didn't ...............apparently this "chronic sinus infection" didnt interfer with school or parades or pagaents did it???)

tipper said:

Dr. FRANCESCO BEUF: Before your call, I sat down with her chart and counted. It was 27 times.

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My money says Patsy was banging Dr. Beuf...

Jayelles said:

They also stated that Helgoth's boots matched the print as if this were also conclusive.

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"We did investigate Helgoth," said Boulder Police Chief Mark Beckner. "And all I can tell you is that there was no DNA match.

"And we looked at a pair of (Helgoth's) boots that had been turned in by the Ramseys' private detectives, and they were compared and didn't match. We didn't have anything further to go on."
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/ramsey/article/0,1299,DRMN_1296_2963897,00.html


People need to engage their brains and think about this one.. The BPD was intensively questioning the Ramseys about Burke owning a pair of Hi-Tek boots with compasses on them. Now don't you think that the Hi-Tek logo is going to be quite a bit SMALLER on a kid's boot than on an adult size? Is it any real wonder why the boots supposedly belonging to Helgoth don't match the print on the floor? Would they have even been questioning the Ramseys about Burke if the print was made by an adult size boot?--Hardly....DUH.

Shylock said:

...
The BPD was intensively questioning the Ramseys about Burke owning a pair of Hi-Tek boots with compasses on them. Now don't you think that the Hi-Tek logo is going to be quite a bit SMALLER on a kid's boot than on an adult size? Is it any real wonder why the boots supposedly belonging to Helgoth don't match the print on the floor? Would they have even been questioning the Ramseys about Burke if the print was made by an adult size boot?--Hardly....DUH.

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But by that same token would ST and others have opined that the print might have been left by someone from LE if it had been a child-sized logo?

The relevant points from the Sawyer interview:

August 1996 -- another routine physical with a vaginal exam. The doctor said everything checked out as normal....

*******
DIANE SAWYER: If there had been an abrasion involving the hymen, you would have seen it?

Dr. FRANCESCO BEUF: Probably. I can't say absolutely for sure because you don't do a speculum exam on a child that young at least unless it's under anesthesia.

Besides, who says an abrasion even existed in August 1996 for Beuf to see? Or any other evidence of abuse, for that matter?

The last time he did any kind of vaginal exam on JB was four months before her death. He could not have known if she was being abused during those four months. BEUF'S OPINION MEANS NOTHING.

Shylock said:

My money says Patsy was banging Dr. Beuf...

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I'm sure Patsy banged Dr.Beuf more than 30 times. Even his wife kind of looks like Patsy.

I have a daugther's that is more or less JB's age. I've just counted the number of times she has been in the doctor in the las three years: 6. Three of them were routine revisions. Three with cause: flu, cold and another because she complained of pain in the hand after falling in the yard, ant it was nothing. This one, as we were on holidays and far for home, we didn't go to the family doctor. (I wonder: what about some possible visits of JB in Charlevoix or straitgh in some hospital?)

My other daugther,who has a minor cronic health problem wich requires attention, has been 14 times in the doctor the last three years. Four of them not to family doctor.

About this kind of "journalism"

That is not journalism; that is show-bussiness. If they wished to inform, and not "to sell" or "get money" they would have talked seriously about all the possibilities. I remember now the friend who told me "OJ Simson is innocent" because he had just seen some crokumentary about this case. It's so easy to manipulate.

I don't believe a thing about this fantasy about Helgoth and his friend. It is just blahblahblah. Just empty especulation, without any proof, even circumstancial (from what I've read in Jayelles info).

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In my humble opinion

Finally:

Ih they said as an indisputable fact that "a stun gun was used in Jonbenét", Boulder Police Departament should sue them, and Tracey shouldn't bee able to work again as a a journalist.

In my opinion.

I quote:-

(Helgoth's suicide photo zooming in on stungun beside body)
Voiceover....
"By now, it was known that a stungun was used to subdue JonBenet"

tipper said:

But by that same token would ST and others have opined that the print might have been left by someone from LE if it had been a child-sized logo?

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Point well taken, Tipper. But remember, ST never said that there was any real investigation into the boot print. If they discovered it was a child size, it would have been after ST left the job. ST never mentioned anything about Burke owning boots with a compass on them.
I think most of that information came out in the Grand Jury sessions--again, after ST was gone.

To amend, Patsy did not take JonBenet to the doctor for bladder complaints alone, as I said. She took her for various ailments, more than "ususal", more than people like me could afford, more than people like me deem necessary.

Here doctor, fix this.

Here priest, resurrect this.

Shylock said:

Point well taken, Tipper. But remember, ST never said that there was any real investigation into the boot print. If they discovered it was a child size, it would have been after ST left the job. ST never mentioned anything about Burke owning boots with a compass on them.
I think most of that information came out in the Grand Jury sessions--again, after ST was gone.

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ST was also gone by the time Helgoth's boots were handed over so he wouldn't know about the investigation into them.

Please check your inbox. I've sent you some more information.

I watched the documentry on Tuesday, and I too thought it did not elaborate on some of the evidence it put forward. It only showed evidence that may indicate that the two persons mentioned as suspects were responsible, which I suppose is what the program was all about, but I found that frustrating, as the mountain of other evidence is what makes this case so intriguing.

I was left unconvinced about an intruder, although the way the program was put together and evidence presented it would convince many.

My husband, who does not have the same interest in it as I do and only watched it because I wanted to, thought at the end of the program that Holgarth and the unnamed suspect were responsible and nothing I said would convince him otherwise:banghead: