1174 users online (239 members and 935 guests)  


Websleuths News


Page 1 of 12 1 2 3 11 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 178
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    college campus
    Posts
    1,015

    Forensic linguist & Jonbenet Ransom study group

    HI,

    for those who want to know more about modern forensic linguistics and the Jonbenet letter,

    Gerald R McMenamin - Forensic Linguistics Advances In Forensic Stylistics
    pdf

    go to

    http://rapidlibrary.com/

    type in
    McMenamin

    you'll be taken here
    http://rapidlibrary.com/download_fil...tylistics+.pdf

    Please ENTER CODE to download this file, enter code,
    download, need adobe acrobat

    Server: rapidshare.com
    Size: 59.55M

    first several chapters on who he is, what he testifies, what courts accept, how and what of forensic linguist methodology, and one chapter on JB RN.

    A must read for anyone seriously interested in JB and the question: "Did JR or PR write the RN, using methods of forensic linguistics?"

    What does an academic forensic linguist think of Donald Foster's method, and "psycholinguist" that the RN was written by an middle age, white female mother dying of cancer?

    and was written several years prior (around 2000) to the announcement of touch DNA results.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    5,299
    It really is the definitive work on the ransom note vs. PR or JR.

    I would call RDI to task, come up with anything even remotely similar that portrays a match. I would like to see that but I don't think it exists for some reason.

    Maybe they're afraid, don't want to be sued?

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    college campus
    Posts
    1,015
    Quote Originally Posted by Holdontoyourhat View Post
    It really is the definitive work on the ransom note vs. PR or JR.

    I would call RDI to task, come up with anything even remotely similar that portrays a match. I would like to see that but I don't think it exists for some reason.

    Maybe they're afraid, don't want to be sued?
    Handwriting experts agree JR did not handwrite the note. They seem evenly divided over PR.

    Forensic linguists also exclude JR as the author of the note. It also excludes PR, and exclusion is more straightforward than inclusion.

    So since neither PR nor JR wrote the RN, in combination with touch DNA and unidentified fiber evidence, and a similar assault on Amy 9 months later (the CASKU analysis did not factor related crimes) the conclusion is inescapable: IDI.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Ceti Alpha V
    Posts
    13,223
    Quote Originally Posted by voynich View Post
    What does an academic forensic linguist think of Donald Foster's method, and "psycholinguist" that the RN was written by an middle age, white female mother dying of cancer?
    Just to add, that "psycholinguist" wasn't the only one who thought so. Far from it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Holdontoyourhat
    I would call RDI to task, come up with anything even remotely similar that portrays a match. I would like to see that but I don't think it exists for some reason.
    If it does exist, I know nothing of it.

    Maybe they're afraid, don't want to be sued?
    I would imagine that's EXACTLY it. I would go so far as to say that's the only reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by voynich
    Handwriting experts agree JR did not handwrite the note. They seem evenly divided over PR.
    That's not quite accurate. A slight majority think she did, and NONE say she didn't (not even the ones they paid to say she didn't).

    Forensic linguists also exclude JR as the author of the note. It also excludes PR, and exclusion is more straightforward than inclusion.
    ONE forensic linguist, who was never even part of the investigation.

    So since neither PR nor JR wrote the RN,
    I'm at a loss to figure how you could come to that conclusion with what we've got.

    in combination with touch DNA and unidentified fiber evidence,
    Both highly questionable.

    and a similar assault on Amy 9 months later (the CASKU analysis did not factor related crimes)
    Actually it DID. There WEREN'T any at the time. In fact, I would go so far as to say that the only reason Amy got attacked is because the JB's death put ideas in some random freak's head.

    the conclusion is inescapable: IDI.
    That's funny. I've come to the exact opposite conclusion, based on an holistic approach.
    Last edited by SuperDave; 08-17-2009 at 12:35 AM.
    I'm as mad as HELL and I'm NOT gonna take it anymore!.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    college campus
    Posts
    1,015
    Quote Originally Posted by SuperDave View Post
    Too bad that psycholiguist wasn't the only one who thought so. Far from it.
    Allow me to show you the subtleties of the Force. My mentor, taught me everything I know about the Force, even the nature of the Dark Side.

    Davakin, if one wants to understand the great mystery, one must be prepared to study it in all aspects, not just the narrow dogmatic view of the RDIST. If one wants to be a wise and complete rule, you must to take a larger view of the Force. Break through the fog of lies the RDIST have created. Don't continue to be a pawn of the RDIST.

    Only through me can you achieve a power greater than any RDIST. Learn to know forensic linguist and you will be able to save this investigation, from certain misdirection. Use Gerald's knowledge, I beg you.

    If you decide to download and read it, it's section 4.4. "Hodges" (2000)

    He also catalogs a variety of errors Donald Foster makes and asserts that Foster's pronouncement is outside his area of expertise, and learn about Gudrati and psycho-linguist "threat analysis" of Dave Koresh (which falls flat on its face)

    Chapters 1-11 discuss in detail the way he evaluates the JB RN in chapter 10.
    Last edited by voynich; 08-17-2009 at 12:36 AM.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Ceti Alpha V
    Posts
    13,223
    Quote Originally Posted by voynich View Post
    Davakin, if one wants to understand the great mystery, one must be prepared to study it in all aspects, not just the narrow dogmatic view of the RDIST. If one wants to be a wise and complete rule, you must to take a larger view of the Force. Break through the fog of lies the RDIST have created. Don't continue to be a pawn of the RDIST.
    If I didn't know where you were coming from, I'd resent that, just for the record.

    Moreover, you've got it backwards. I DID break through the fog of lies. How do you think I got where I am?

    Only through me can you achieve a power greater than any RDIST. Learn to know forensic linguist and you will be able to save this investigation, from certain misdirection. Use Gerald's knowledge, I beg you.
    Don't get me wrong, voynich: if I came on a bit strong in my response, I apologize. But this case has taught me the value of not trusting any one expert too much, especially in a field like this one.

    If you decide to download and read it, it's section 4.4. "Hodges" (2000)
    Got it. I have no reason to trust Hodges. But there are a few things I'd like you to have a look at, if that's okay.

    He also catalogs a variety of errors Donald Foster makes and asserts that Foster's pronouncement is outside his area of expertise
    Well, he was a first timer. What bothers me is he came so highly recommended.

    and learn about Gudrati and psycho-linguist "threat analysis" of Dave Koresh (which falls flat on its face)
    Gudrati wasn't the only one with egg on his face in that one.

    Chapters 1-11 discuss in detail the way he evaluates the JB RN in chapter 10.
    Got it.
    Last edited by SuperDave; 08-17-2009 at 01:12 AM.
    I'm as mad as HELL and I'm NOT gonna take it anymore!.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    5,299
    Quote Originally Posted by voynich View Post
    Handwriting experts agree JR did not handwrite the note. They seem evenly divided over PR.

    Forensic linguists also exclude JR as the author of the note. It also excludes PR, and exclusion is more straightforward than inclusion.

    So since neither PR nor JR wrote the RN, in combination with touch DNA and unidentified fiber evidence, and a similar assault on Amy 9 months later (the CASKU analysis did not factor related crimes) the conclusion is inescapable: IDI.
    I'd say they're not evenly divided over PR. Thats because altough there are experts here and there that say this or that, the litmus test was when BPD collected various experts at their own discretion. There was by no means a consensus that PR wrote the note among those experts. They were not 'evenly divided'.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Ceti Alpha V
    Posts
    13,223
    Quote Originally Posted by Holdontoyourhat View Post
    I'd say they're not evenly divided over PR. That's because although there are experts here and there that say this or that, the litmus test was when BPD collected various experts at their own discretion. There was by no means a consensus that PR wrote the note among those experts. They were not 'evenly divided'.
    Given the limited information they had to work with, especially in a non-scientific field, I wouldn't expect there WOULD be.
    I'm as mad as HELL and I'm NOT gonna take it anymore!.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    1,019
    Voynich, I am trying to persuade my sister to come on here. She has views on the Ramsey case but her field is remarkably similar to that of Donald Foster and I think you'd all enjoy her thoughts. She's not in Foster's league yet, BTW

    She can't stand teh interwebby thing for discussion purposes but I may be able to extract a short essay from her....

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Ceti Alpha V
    Posts
    13,223
    Quote Originally Posted by Sophie View Post
    Voynich, I am trying to persuade my sister to come on here. She has views on the Ramsey case but her field is remarkably similar to that of Donald Foster and I think you'd all enjoy her thoughts. She's not in Foster's league yet, BTW

    She can't stand teh interwebby thing for discussion purposes but I may be able to extract a short essay from her....
    Sounds interesting!
    I'm as mad as HELL and I'm NOT gonna take it anymore!.


  11. #11
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    .....
    Posts
    5,048
    Hi Sophie.

    That would be great ... please do, your sister's input is welcomed.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    5,299
    Quote Originally Posted by SuperDave View Post
    Given the limited information they had to work with, especially in a non-scientific field, I wouldn't expect there WOULD be.

    The ransom note was over 300 words, over 1500 characters. Practically an unlimited supply of writing. One of the biggest if not the biggest collection of writing from a kidnap for ransom crime. I can't imagine a CDE that would be whining 'not enough ransom note'.

    They knew who the suspect was. They had access to her exemplars before and after the crime. The suspect was available for years and years. Had numerous sittings with right and left hand. Even had her copy all the ransom note words and the ransom note itself word for word, using the same pen. I can't imagine a CDE that would whine 'not enough exemplars'. It simply doesn't get any better than that.

    An absolutely unprecedented level of information was made available to handwriting experts for the comparison.

    It wasn't even a one-shot thing. There is no double jeopardy. If BPD wanted to do it all over again they could. But, I can understand why there has been no LE effort to form a consensus since the first attempt.

    U.S. Secret Service: "no evidence to indicate that Patsy Ramsey executed any of the questioned material appearing on the Ransom Note." (SMF P 200; PSMF P 200.)" (Carnes 2003:26, note 14).
    Last edited by Holdontoyourhat; 08-17-2009 at 06:50 PM.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Ceti Alpha V
    Posts
    13,223
    Quote Originally Posted by Holdontoyourhat View Post
    The ransom note was over 300 words, over 1500 characters. Practically an unlimited supply of writing. One of the biggest if not the biggest collection of writing from a kidnap for ransom crime. I can't imagine a CDE that would complain 'not enough ransom note'.
    You misunderstand. Among other things, it wasn't initially known that PR could write left-handed. By the time that was discovered, the rice was fried, as it were.

    They knew who the suspect was. They had access to her exemplars before and after the crime. The suspect was available for years and years. Had numerous sittings with right, left and even had her copy all the ransom note words and the ransom note itself word for word, using the same pen. I can't imagine a CDE that would complain 'not enough exemplars'.
    Actually, I would be extremely surprised if they had her write it out with the EXACT same pen. Pens like that aren't uniform. They change with use.
    Indeed, someone here mentioned that not too long ago. It certainly bears repeating. Moreover, a lot of what you rely on comes from preliminary reports. More on that in a second.

    An absolutely unprecedented level of information was made available to handwriting experts for the comparison.
    Sometimes it's not how much information you have. It's how you use it.

    It was not a one-shot thing. There is no double jeopardy. If BPD wanted to do it all over again they could. But, I can understand why there has been no LE effort to form a consensus since the first attempt.
    No, I don't think you do. The original note doesn't exist anymore. Moreover, from what I can gather, there wasn't any real attempt to "gather a consensus."

    U.S. Secret Service: "no evidence to indicate that Patsy Ramsey executed any of the questioned material appearing on the Ransom Note." (SMF P 200; PSMF P 200.)" (Carnes 2003:26, note 14).
    Ah, a perfect example. From what I understand, that analysis was very hastily obtained early on before the original expert had a chance to make his final decision. He wasn't too pleased about that. I quote from PMPT, pages 535-536:

    The police had never bothered to ask Ubowski if he had put his entire analysis of the ransom note into his report and whether it was his final report. Either way, Ubowski was prepared to say, "Patsy wrote the note." The CBI saw this as one more example of the missed opportunities in this investigation.

    It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that one out. Ubowski was all ready, and these screw-ups get impatient, go off half-cocked, get a hasty analysis using incomplete information, and now the DA doesn't think he can testify because his own analysis is now compromised.

    Just to add. PMPT, page 740:

    experts from the CBI presented their evaluations of the evidence, including Chet Ubowski, the handwriting expert, who had reported to the police that Patsy could not be excluded as the writer of the ransom note. He had also told his boss, Pete Mang, that his gut told him it was her handwriting.

    FOXNews later reported that Ubowski told the Grand Jury that the only thing that kept him from positively indentifying PR as the author was because the ink from the pen bled so heavily.

    HOTYH, I've said many times that I'm not a betting man, and I'm not. But I wouldn't mind seeing the reports inside the actual police file. I'd be willing to stake a little money that those reports are a little closer to my end of it. But for now, that's just my feeling.
    I'm as mad as HELL and I'm NOT gonna take it anymore!.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    5,299
    Quote Originally Posted by SuperDave View Post
    No, I don't think you do. The original note doesn't exist anymore. Moreover, from what I can gather, there wasn't any real attempt to "gather a consensus."
    Are you saying that their ability to perform another comparison with PR or anyone else is reduced because of the present state of the ransom note?

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Ceti Alpha V
    Posts
    13,223
    Quote Originally Posted by Holdontoyourhat View Post
    Are you saying that their ability to perform another comparison with PR or anyone else is reduced because of the present state of the ransom note?
    Well, no, I'm not. I only brought it up to show that things aren't the same, is all. Truth be told, it wasn't really that important.
    I'm as mad as HELL and I'm NOT gonna take it anymore!.

Page 1 of 12 1 2 3 11 ... LastLast


Similar Threads

  1. Day 12 The Ransom Note/The 12 Days of JonBenet
    By Tricia in forum JonBenet Ramsey
    Replies: 113
    Last Post: 01-14-2017, 06:13 PM
  2. OH - Group of BLM Men Attack Another Group
    By scmom in forum Crimes in the News
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 08-29-2016, 10:48 PM
  3. Study of the Ransom Note
    By Ravyn in forum JonBenet Ramsey
    Replies: 93
    Last Post: 09-17-2009, 05:00 PM