This link was posted Solomisskitty in Media Links.
SunHerald-Weapons cache found on Coast
Before accepting the weapons, Denson told investigators he asked Wiggins “...are they clean and have they been involved in any crimes or are they stolen or what?”
Hugh Wiggins, reports show, replied, saying “no, they’re, they’re my personal weapons I just need you to hold them for a while.” Denson agreed, telling ATF agents that he’d known Wiggins for a while and considered him a trusted friend.
Denson told investigators that Wiggins gave him some of the weapons the night he arrived. He said the couple decided to stay overnight, reports showed, and they parked their mini-van at the Chevron station for the night. Denson told investigators he drove the couple to the Deluxe Inn & Suites on Mississippi 63 near Interstate 10 the night they arrived, and Hugh Wiggins reportedly gave Denson $80 in cash for him to go inside and rent the room for them.
Denson told agents Hugh Wiggins gave him the remainder of the weapons the following morning after he picked them up at the motel and drove them back to the convenience store. He said the exchange took place in the store’s parking lot.
Wonder why Hugh didn't just dump the weapons offshore? Said that's where he was headed. Maybe he worked out of a tight security dock.
All these guns and Denson didn't find it odd they had him go in and pay for the room. Yeah Right.
These people are on something. They left the guns in a parked car at the convenience store overnight?
After reading those docs, I cannot believe that HW got immunity and has not been arrested. He was in this - up to his EARS - how in the world is he (and Tice) gonna walk away from this without impunity? I don't get it.
The painter lady knew something was up just with the weird people in Wiggins' own house. This guy is either dirty himself or would need a 2x4 upside the head to see the obvious.
The more I read about these people, the more I get sick thinking about it. Premeditation and then continued obfuscations and dragging every Tom, Dick and Harry in, for what??? Did they really think they would get away with this forever? (I don't know, maybe people do???)
I will be happy when I know Hugh is in jail. He seems more culpable than his pathetic, pseudo, drugged up wife.
I'm a little confused as to why the police have mostly focused on Pam, when it seems that Hugh might be a bigger player.
I remember an interview of a cleaning person where Pam was left upstairs alone and Hugh went downstairs for what seemed to be a shady meeting.
That didnt' seem to portray Pam as the ring leader to me.
I agree that based on the statements of many others, HW seems to be a participant or at least present during many of the dialogs between principal parties in this case. I think he may be the key to understanding Pat Poff's motivation, or at least his feeling of 'authorization' such as it was from some shadowy 'bosses' to go forward with this thing. Clearly, it is bigger than a robbery,
In Patrick's mind*
but the question is what other 'incentives' or prodding was part of the environment that launched this disgusting travesty.
*(sorry if anyone thinks that emphasis is unwarranted or excessive, but I don't. I wish Pat was a more easily read guy -- perhaps as either cold blooded assassin, or unwitting dupe, or hotheaded reactionary... but the reality is that he is a bizarre mix of influences and apparent beliefs/statements/actions that are not congruent, or even internally consistent -- he is all over the map, and about the only thing that is clear is that he cannot be believed, on anything, and that he is likely to say or do anything. So that could mean (most likely explanation) that he took some disgruntled auto-industry chatter, some general idea that the Billings were loaded, and became an independent operator, determined to grab the loot, while clearing his own books and the books for Tice and others indebted to BB. BUT, that character of him, makes him the perfect patsy/fall-guy, even if he never knows the truth himself, and who it was that influenced him, or even pulled the strings. They say con guys are the easiest to con, and maybe Pat conned himself into doing this, even thinking it was largely his idea and operation, and is now 'lying' to the cops that he is a fall guy, not even realizing the irony that he was IN ACTUAL FACT a fall guy... sheesh, I feel like I am describing Robert Downy Jrs. lineage in "Tropic Thunder"!)
Well, Lossmitpro, add drugs into the mix of your excellent analysis and that may account for the strangeness. Somewhere I read that there was testimony that LPG JR may have been addicted to prescription drugs (like Pam). Drugs may account for their irrational, erratic, pathetic and desperate behavior.
Last edited by megamami; 08-21-2009 at 10:39 AM. Reason: added specific instead of 'he'
But I've asked this before, and I'll ask it again:
We know some of the suspects are talking, laying the murders on LPG Jr- if someone else was involved (camera man, ring leader), why wouldn't they give that person up too?
The only thing I can think of is only LPG Jr may be the only one (of the 6 guys involved in the break in) that actually knows, and I don't think he is talking.
...a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest...
Another comment by WouldRatherNotSay (you can tell I find his comments somewhat informed) mentions a 2 way radio found that was dumped by Hugh Wiggins:
http://ricksblog.biz/?p=7247#comment-258114 Comments 8&9 12:53am/3:56 am
Has anyone found any verfication of this radio thing in the documents or media? It is the first I heard about the radio, but I was already suspicious of Tice being in the back woods at 10 pm the night of the murder dumping "garbage".Say, what about that now-recovered Midland Model ALR260 radio that Hugh Wiggins threw away along the highway in Mississippi close to the church? And why drive all the way to Mississippi and suddenly decide to throw away a two-way radio when there are plenty of wooded areas in Santa Rosa County where you can dump trash? Probably best do any kind of illegal dumping after 10 P.M. though to minimize the chances of anyone seeing you and reporting you.
Might prove worthwhile for investigators to go back to the woods and give another look see for indications of recent fires and to test any ashes found for Midland ALR260 component residue.
In Tice's statement he said he was going to pee (sorry, don't have the page number)
After Mr. Denson told the investigators about the radio being thrown from the car, the investigators went to the area it was thrown and found it. It is part of the evidence now. If it were not for the deaths of Melanie and Byrd, a sitcom could be made about these criminals.
Anyway, thanks for this link! What in the world!!! Denson knew that the Wigginses were running from something and they were making references to the crime here and saying they were wanted ... and he DID ALL THIS anyway (holding the guns)???!!! Maybe he needs his own thread, but what kind of thinking would allow you to proceed helping someone with this information???
The Florida Sunshine Law is a very liberal public information law. Basically, all records maintained by a governmental agency are public records subject to release upon request. However, there are many exceptions when involving law enforcement. The following is a list of items exempt from public record release.
Active criminal investigation reports and evidence
Some investigative procedures
Some victim information
Some domestic violence information
Some juvenile offender records
I am surprised that 911 calls are exempt...
Lossmitpro posted ........ "They say con guys are the easiest to con, and maybe Pat conned himself into doing this, even thinking it was largely his idea and operation, and is now 'lying' to the cops that he is a fall guy, not even realizing the irony that he was IN ACTUAL FACT a fall guy... sheesh, I feel like I am describing Robert Downy Jrs. lineage in "Tropic Thunder"!)
I agree. LPG Jr may have worked himself right into a position to be conned by a smoother con than he. Set-up to take the fall, but using his big bad vanity and bravado to hang himself.
Really, after reading the gun hiding mini get-away, I am surprised HGW was so involved and not in jail yet. Who was conning who between Pam and Hubbie?
Hey, I'm just glad someone could follow *both* my tortured logic, and my tortured writing to pull out what I meant to say there. Which you obviously did!
I am usually a stanch advocate of 'simpler is better', including crime theories. But I do make a bit of an exception with an obvious egomaniac nutjob like Patrick Gonzalez. Here is a guy who was pathologically driven to constantly lie to people in order to aggrandize himself, and that is one reason we get so many different stories. We get it not only about his own situation (karate superstar, govnt agent, super good guy (seratoma), super bad guy (drugs/guns), hired killer, loving family man, desperate daddy on internet searching for lost child, guy opening up a new motorcycle customization shop, drug rip off dude, repro expert, Bentley driving yacht owner, etc), but even get a variety of stories regarding the target (variously described as: a pedophile, a drug dealer, a big time loan shark, retiree with four million dollar stash, a guy running an adoption ring, etc). And so, for Pat to admit to himself or to others that he tried to plan and pull off this crime fiasco all by himself and screwed it up totally, or that he was cleverly manipulated by someone else, would seem unacceptable. However, LYING about some faceless powerful cabal, or some quasi-governmental undercover group, who caused him to be snared as the 'patsy'... well, the dark intrigue there will appeal to his twisted ego more than any other tale he could come up with, ESPECIALLY the truth.
My mom used the phrase 'he would rather lie than tell the truth' one time regarding a person, and I thought it was just humorous hyperbole. But later in life I realized there were people, and even met a couple of them, for whom that adage was totally true -- every statement, every interaction was a chance to spin, to build up, to puff up and to inflate. Pat Poff is one of those types.
Last edited by Lossmitpro; 08-25-2009 at 11:35 AM.
What part of Patrick's "criminality" has he lied about? Of course, he's lied about NOT killing the Billings', but aside from that, what has he lied about with regard to criminal activities? I noticed that LS would say he's a liar, but then he ends up saying he DID go to Mexico and he DID rob the Billings' and he DID hang out with serious characters. And based on circumstantial evidence, it looks like he also robbed a couple local banks. I don't think Patrick was a liar as much as he was a sociopath and a career criminal. His big lie was acting as though he was a productive citizen and producing a facade of success.
If you've read the statements of those who knew him -- from his criminal activity, to his family, to his 'business' ties --there is a crystal clear trail of one lie after another, a lifetime of lies and deception, *including* by the assessment of pretty much all of those people, who independently came to the same conclusion.
If you think he is not a liar, more power to you.
Think about the way that he got his fellow ninjas involved in this crime. He told Sumner he would invest in his business, he even paid Sumner's rent for one month. He told everyone there would be millions of dollars in the Billings safe. He sent photos of a safe full of money. He told his father that the Billings were molesting children. He told someone (I forget who) that Billings was an "elderly drug dealer". He basically told people what they wanted to hear in order to get them to do what he wanted to do. This is why friends who knew him well refused to participate. As Loss says, everyone who knew LPG well said he was a liar. Why should we doubt this?
He told Sumner he would invest in his business...and he did, he paid his rent for one month. With regard to Billings molesting children, I missed that one. But with regard to two kilos of cocaine, we really don't know that they DIDN'T carry two kilos out of there and distribute it from the moorage where Pamela and Hugh went. With regard to my earlier comment about Wiggins "muscling" his way to the top, maybe it wasn't JW that was at "the top"? Stallworth is quoted as saying he'd never seen so much money before he saw the Billings' safe and he estimated the cash alone at $300k. This hasn't been confirmed, but it does make me wonder if there wasn't also a couple of kilos. I'm not saying Patrick is always honest, but I think it's naive to simply dismiss anything he says as a "lie" because his criminal associates say he "always lies". He definitely embellishes and seems to be a sociopath, but the grains of truth shouldn't be discarded or discounted, imho.
See Carol Brant Interview which begins Page 444/729. This is from Page 3 of her interview:
A: "He just said they were going out there because that man was molesting little children that he had in his care and when they walked in, there was a 6 year old Chinese girl, Philipino, whatever with a negligee on and him in the bedroom with her....
Q; "What did he, what did Patrick say he did when he saw it?"
A: "He didn't come out and tell me, nobody would"
There is NO evidence that there was an asian girl in the house, no evidence of a girl with a negligee on and no evidence of molestation. This is a lie.
See interview with Jacopettit and Schumacher, page 1069
Jacopettit states that Gonzalez expressed that he owned a custom bike business and he would buy into Sumners 5th dimension. Gonzalez was, according to Jocopettit, going to pay the back rent once Gonzalez set up the paperwork with an attorney.
There is no evidence that Gonzalez owned a custom bike business and no evidence that he was working with an attorney on setting this up. This is a lie.
As far as the two kilos of Cocaine goes, there is NO evidence there were any drugs in the Billings residence. No drugs were seen being carried out on the video. I imagine that 2 Kilos of Cocaine would be pretty hard to hide in a video. And remember, they probably did not realize there was a video, so they would not have been attempting to hide it if it were there. This is a lie.
I am certain that LPG mixes some reality into his lies. I think that there are grains of fact in everything he says...but what is a liar? A liar is a person who tells lies. It does not mean he never tells the truth. It means that his statements can not be accepted on face value. I believe that this describes LPG.
Like Loss, I have no interest debating this with you further. If you want to believe LPG, go for it.
Obviously something is on your mind -- so why not make your point, lay out your thesis? There are a lot of varying points of view here, most of them appreciated even if not adopted, and none of us have access to the ground 'truth', just the documents as released, so maybe your theory is better than the existing one.