View Poll Results: Are the Ramseys involved or not?

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  • The Ramseys are somehow involved in the crime and/or cover-up

    802 74.74%
  • The Ramseys are not involved at all in the crime or cover-up

    271 25.26%
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  1. #1636
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    Quote Originally Posted by SapphireSteel View Post
    There was. It was freezing cold. Why go out in that weather when you have a massive house to hide her in?

    Then, there's the issue of the footprints in the snow...if you dump her outside, you then have to fake footprints going...where?

    Unfortunately for the Ramseys, they didn't realise it worked against them as well. No footprints=no intruder.

    Duh.
    SapphireSteel,
    From memory the snow thing is not critical since the snow was not deposited uniformly. Or it was frozen and compact so would not display footprints. I do not think it was as big a deal as described.

    It was freezing cold. Why go out in that weather when you have a massive house to hide her in?
    In general, because this is what most perpetrators do. Check google for cases, particularly in molestation cases where a male knows he will be at the top of the suspect list, so he erroneously thinks, no body in the house, I can blame an intruder!


    It just seems so obvious, the R's wanted an abduction not an intruder led dump-site, otherwise JonBenet would have been left on the roadside somewhere?



    .


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  3. #1637
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    Here's something interesting I've read: The media prefers to cover cases where the child is missing. JonBenet is the only high-profile case I can think of where the child was never missing and it never went to trial. Look at how many posts cases in the "Missing" section get compared to how posts cases in "Crimes Against Children" receive. Mark Fuhrman wrote an entire book about this; He said that when a child is missing, the media can report on "The Search for ______" which can easily turn into a frenzy. Think about it; you can have the parents pleading for the abductor to give their child back, LE is more likely to give frequent press conferences, there will thousands of people searching, they can report on all the legitimate and fake findings they find, etc.


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  5. #1638
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.U.Kidding! View Post
    So if I may ask Is it the general consensus on this thread that JBR had been sexually abused by by John,Burke,or Patsy?...or all of them?

    If this is why they were afraid of this being found out, then why invent the 3 page ransom note about some Foreign Faction who only needed a very small but precise amount of money from John Ramsey, but on their out the door they decided to sexually assault JonBenet, and strangle her, and leave her there. I mean if this was the case why would they not just take her with them and wait for the ransom money to be paid.

    If the Ramseys fabricated this cover-up, wouldn't it make more sense to have us believe some pervert saw JonBenet , stalked her, and took her that night. No ransom note just took her and disposed of her body. Surely finding her in their own basement was the perfect reason to implicate a family member, right?

    If this is what happened, the Ramsey's should of been arrested for sheer stupidity. This case will at least leave it's mark in history, if only as an educational tool for law schools, when needing the "Perfect Storm of Ineptness" of a case. This is ONLY MY opinion.
    I personally don't believe ALL of them were abusing JB, but I do believe some one in the family was. One FACT is that something penetrated JB's vagina THAT night with enough force to cause her to bleed from the vagina. Her OWN blood was found in small amounts in her vagina, and evidence of a larger amount having been wiped from her thighs and pubic area was also noted in the autopsy. THIS is what is meant by acute sexual assault. The CHRONIC sexual assault is evidenced by the erosion of the hymen and widening of her vaginal canal, both noted by the forensic specialists.
    Whatever caused her to bleed must have HURT and I believe it prompted her to scream. (which was heard by a neighbor). And I believe her scream prompted whoever was molesting her to bash her on the head (IMO the flashlight was used- it is the only explanation for the flashlight having been OPENED and the batteries wiped down).
    I agree with the suggestions that you read ST' book and Lawrence Schiller's PMPT. Acandyrose is where I got a lot of my information as well. If you can, you can also rent the DVD version of PMPT as well. I found it on Netflix and and eventually bought my own copy. It is fairly unbiased. And it is a 2-hour "crash course" on the case.
    THIS time, we get it RIGHT!

    This post is my constitutionally-protected opinion. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.


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  7. #1639
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    Is this a weird part of Patsy's April 1997 interview or what....

    TT: Right. And on of those had something about a kitty game, that was her favorite game. You remember what that’s about?
    PR: Kitty?
    TT: Yeah.
    PR: To play kitty. Yeah, she likes to play kitty (inaudible).
    TT: Uh.
    PR: You don’t like kitty huh. She and Daphne like to, they love kittens. And we had some kittens up at the lake (inaudible). And she and Daphne like to pretend they were kittens. She’s just, they would walk around and they would say, oh there’s a kitty, (inaudible). Let’s go into the pet shop, I think I’ll buy this one.
    I feel like we've discussed it before but I couldn't find anything when I searched...

    I wonder if the inaudible part was Patsy saying, "Mwor"


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  9. #1640
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
    Whatever caused her to bleed must have HURT and I believe it prompted her to scream. (which was heard by a neighbor). And I believe her scream prompted whoever was molesting her to bash her on the head

    This brought back a very vivid memory of when my now 3 year old bit my husband while playing. His instant reflex reaction was to smack her..probably way too hard. He felt horrible, but stated it scared and surprised him, that was his first reaction. Is it completely unreasonable to wonder if her screams startled the abuser so much that the smack with the flashlight was almost like a reflex and not intended to be a fatal injury? Only a quick "knee jerk" reaction?


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  11. #1641
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olivia&Eve View Post
    This brought back a very vivid memory of when my now 3 year old bit my husband while playing. His instant reflex reaction was to smack her..probably way too hard. He felt horrible, but stated it scared and surprised him, that was his first reaction. Is it completely unreasonable to wonder if her screams startled the abuser so much that the smack with the flashlight was almost like a reflex and not intended to be a fatal injury? Only a quick "knee jerk" reaction?
    Possible, certainly. That is what is meant when we say her death may have been "unintentional"- which is different from accidental. Bashing her wasn't an accident. No one hits someone with enough force to crack open their skull accidentally. But it was not intended to be a fatal injury. Once it had happened, most forensic specialist agree that the head blow would have rendered her instantly unconscious, and possibly even comatose. She may have convulsed. (this would account for the vomit/mucous on her cheek). But she may have appeared dead to an untrained eye, especially if she did go into a coma or shock. If that happened, her body would get cold, as body temperature drops in a coma or shock, and her breathing might become so shallow as to seem to be absent.
    Once JB seemed to be dead or so irreversibly damaged that there was no turning back- there were only two ways forward- call 911 and tell the truth- which may result in the sexual abuse being discovered and criminal charges being brought and certainly a "public relations" nightmare for the family and JR's business (including parent company Lockheed)- as well as a damaged future for BR if he was involved. The OTHER way was the coward's way- and obviously the way they chose to react. Stage it to look like a kidnapping by writing an inane ransom note (and leave the body there), blaming it on either a disgruntled employee (JR told Det. Arndt as soon as he brought up her body is was an "inside job", or a small foreign faction, or an intruder or all three -then call your lawyers immediately and get the governor's office involved and refuse to talk to police....well- that's why we are here today.
    THIS time, we get it RIGHT!

    This post is my constitutionally-protected opinion. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.


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  13. #1642
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    Good Read DeeDEE249

    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
    Possible, certainly. That is what is meant when we say her death may have been "unintentional"- which is different from accidental. Bashing her wasn't an accident. No one hits someone with enough force to crack open their skull accidentally. But it was not intended to be a fatal injury. Once it had happened, most forensic specialist agree that the head blow would have rendered her instantly unconscious, and possibly even comatose. She may have convulsed. (this would account for the vomit/mucous on her cheek). But she may have appeared dead to an untrained eye, especially if she did go into a coma or shock. If that happened, her body would get cold, as body temperature drops in a coma or shock, and her breathing might become so shallow as to seem to be absent.
    Once JB seemed to be dead or so irreversibly damaged that there was no turning back- there were only two ways forward- call 911 and tell the truth- which may result in the sexual abuse being discovered and criminal charges being brought and certainly a "public relations" nightmare for the family and JR's business (including parent company Lockheed)- as well as a damaged future for BR if he was involved. The OTHER way was the coward's way- and obviously the way they chose to react. Stage it to look like a kidnapping by writing an inane ransom note (and leave the body there), blaming it on either a disgruntled employee (JR told Det. Arndt as soon as he brought up her body is was an "inside job", or a small foreign faction, or an intruder or all three -then call your lawyers immediately and get the governor's office involved and refuse to talk to police....well- that's why we are here today.
    Quote from DeeDee249:
    There were only two ways forward- call 911 and tell the truth- which may result in the sexual abuse being discovered and criminal charges being brought and certainly a "public relations" nightmare for the family and JR's business (including parent company Lockheed)- as well as a damaged future for BR if he was involved. The OTHER way was the coward's way- and obviously the way they chose to react. Stage it to look like a kidnapping by writing an inane ransom note (and leave the body there), blaming it on either a disgruntled employee (JR told Det. Arndt as soon as he brought up her body is was an "inside job", or a small foreign faction, or an intruder or all three -then call your lawyers immediately and get the governor's office involved and refuse to talk to police....well- that's why we are here today. End Quote

    I think it went even higher up than that, but that is MOO. They made the phone call's as soon as the accident (in MOO) of cracking JB skull. How else can they keep Fleet White shut up for so long and BR as well?

    Parents of a child that is murdered want to find the killler/killer's not hide forever and a day and keep those that were best of friends mouths shut as well.


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  15. #1643
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flatlander View Post
    Quote from DeeDee249:
    [COLOR="DarkRed"]

    They made the phone call's as soon as the accident (in MOO) of cracking JB skull. How else can they keep Fleet White shut up for so long and BR as well?

    Just out of curiosity--what makes you think that?


  16. #1644
    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy View Post
    SapphireSteel,
    From memory the snow thing is not critical since the snow was not deposited uniformly. Or it was frozen and compact so would not display footprints. I do not think it was as big a deal as described.


    In general, because this is what most perpetrators do. Check google for cases, particularly in molestation cases where a male knows he will be at the top of the suspect list, so he erroneously thinks, no body in the house, I can blame an intruder!


    It just seems so obvious, the R's wanted an abduction not an intruder led dump-site, otherwise JonBenet would have been left on the roadside somewhere?



    .
    Do you think John was trying to get JonBenet in the SUV in the garage when he "went missing"? Maybe he was still hoping to go alone and dump her along the way to the bank for the "ransom money? Or could JonBenet of already been in the garage and John moved her in the wine cellar and that was why he made the beeline to the basement to find her? JonBenet had been moved several times by the time the ME got there and she was taken to the morgue and if she was kept on her back wouldn't the lividity stayed the same?

    It does make sense that Pasty wouldn't of wanted her placed outside for cosmetic reasons and maybe some compassion ie. her blanket found with her, the heart drawn on her hand. I wonder if there was a red marker with the pad ?

    I wake at night and run different scenarios in my mind. I think of the terrible scream and it suddenly stopping. I think of the "lights" seen moving in the house. I think of the missing Christmas tape and photos. I sometimes wonder if there was a stun gun and was it used to try and revive JonBenet? And that it went in a trash can outside the home?

    Trying to make sense out of nonsense.


    All opinions expressed by me on Websleuths are my very own thoughts, not yours, and are to stay on this website


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  18. #1645
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    Quote Originally Posted by ILikeToBendPages View Post
    Do you think John was trying to get JonBenet in the SUV in the garage when he "went missing"? Maybe he was still hoping to go alone and dump her along the way to the bank for the "ransom money? Or could JonBenet of already been in the garage and John moved her in the wine cellar and that was why he made the beeline to the basement to find her? JonBenet had been moved several times by the time the ME got there and she was taken to the morgue and if she was kept on her back wouldn't the lividity stayed the same?

    It does make sense that Pasty wouldn't of wanted her placed outside for cosmetic reasons and maybe some compassion ie. her blanket found with her, the heart drawn on her hand. I wonder if there was a red marker with the pad ?

    I wake at night and run different scenarios in my mind. I think of the terrible scream and it suddenly stopping. I think of the "lights" seen moving in the house. I think of the missing Christmas tape and photos. I sometimes wonder if there was a stun gun and was it used to try and revive JonBenet? And that it went in a trash can outside the home?

    Trying to make sense out of nonsense.
    ILikeToBendPages,
    Yes, John could have been upto anything while he was absent. He could have moved JonBenet, no problem, its an unaswered question. Fleet White might have the answer since he saw the inside of the wine-cellar three times that day, more than anyone else bar an R!

    I reckon Fleet White thinks JonBenet was not in the wine-cellar when he first looked. After JonBenet was discovered he went back to check on something, what I do not know. But I think he was checking the visibility, since he knew what was already lying in the wine-cellar, he was confirming whether he should have seen earlier what John Ramsey saw immediately!

    So its highly likely that John moved JonBenet.

    It does make sense that Pasty wouldn't of wanted her placed outside for cosmetic reasons and maybe some compassion ie. her blanket found with her, the heart drawn on her hand. I wonder if there was a red marker with the pad ?
    I think dumping JonBenet might ruin their plans. They were attempting to buy time, they wanted to fly out of Colorado, they thought once JonBenet is found and the interviews are over we can fly away. So they cooked up an abduction scenario.

    There was a red marker somewhere in the house. I think JonBenet would draw hearts on John's newspaper and desk writing pads?


    I wake at night and run different scenarios in my mind. I think of the terrible scream and it suddenly stopping. I think of the "lights" seen moving in the house. I think of the missing Christmas tape and photos. I sometimes wonder if there was a stun gun and was it used to try and revive JonBenet? And that it went in a trash can outside the home?
    Stun gun. Probably not, there was no need for it. The missing Christmas tape and photos are a big red flag, especially from a family as wealthy as the R's. There is the outside possibility that JAR was indeed at the house, and its the familial abuse that is the underlying factor in setting the conspiracy in concrete?

    The other items that might be noted in any Chrismas photos, video etc, are clothing, dolls, and other gifts, now absent, due to Pamela's clearup?

    There is also the photo albums dumped in the basement, why so, who needed to distance themselves from JonBenet? These photos generated a search of the R's holiday home for illegal pornography, and the results of the search were sealed!

    Trying to make sense out of nonsense.
    It only seems that way because most of it has been staged.



    .


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  20. #1646
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olivia&Eve View Post
    This brought back a very vivid memory of when my now 3 year old bit my husband while playing. His instant reflex reaction was to smack her..probably way too hard. He felt horrible, but stated it scared and surprised him, that was his first reaction. Is it completely unreasonable to wonder if her screams startled the abuser so much that the smack with the flashlight was almost like a reflex and not intended to be a fatal injury? Only a quick "knee jerk" reaction?
    I bet she never bit him again!


  21. #1647
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    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy View Post
    SapphireSteel,
    From memory the snow thing is not critical since the snow was not deposited uniformly. Or it was frozen and compact so would not display footprints. I do not think it was as big a deal as described.


    In general, because this is what most perpetrators do. Check google for cases, particularly in molestation cases where a male knows he will be at the top of the suspect list, so he erroneously thinks, no body in the house, I can blame an intruder!


    It just seems so obvious, the R's wanted an abduction not an intruder led dump-site, otherwise JonBenet would have been left on the roadside somewhere?



    .
    I've read up on the snow thing (which I should have done first, duh) and there was quite a lot of it, but it was patchy, also the paths to the house were completely clear...but the grassy areas were not. Perhaps there was enough around for it to be a factor for a panicked perpetrator trying to stage a scene...but you're right, at this point it does seem irrelevant.


  22. #1648
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    Quote Originally Posted by SapphireSteel View Post
    I've read up on the snow thing (which I should have done first, duh) and there was quite a lot of it, but it was patchy, also the paths to the house were completely clear...but the grassy areas were not. Perhaps there was enough around for it to be a factor for a panicked perpetrator trying to stage a scene...but you're right, at this point it does seem irrelevant.
    SapphireSteel,
    Not quite, you can always learn from stuff.

    Another way to look at this is this: If they really wanted to dump JonBenet outdoors all that was required was an incoming, e.g. intruder, and outgoing, e.g. intruder, set of footprints.

    So find a pair of shoes that can be used then allowed to vanish, but for all intents and purposes an intruder has come and left the R's home. Although much more difficult to achieve, changing the tires on the car and driving in and out would yield the same result.

    The problem for LEA is to distinguish the outgoing from the incoming tracks, and in the firestorm the R's would scream IDI!

    So given the preamble what might we learn, possibly the R's never intended to dump JonBenet outdoors, because thats not a kidnapping is it?


    .


  23. #1649
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olivia&Eve View Post
    Just out of curiosity--what makes you think that?
    For starter's the phone records were never recovered. Why would Fleet White go to such links to help solve the case when JR ran from it? Did Fleet's son stay the night w/BR or DS and Fleet had knowledge of this?

    Instead JR called the governer of Colorado and hence was lead to how to handle the situation, MOO.
    Shoot, the R's lawyers were on the case before the LE could even move. So let's go to the top:
    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1109560/posts
    Last edited by Flatlander; 06-23-2012 at 07:38 PM. Reason: wording


  24. #1650
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    Bike tracks in the snow 12/26/1996

    Quote Originally Posted by SapphireSteel View Post
    I've read up on the snow thing (which I should have done first, duh) and there was quite a lot of it, but it was patchy, also the paths to the house were completely clear...but the grassy areas were not. Perhaps there was enough around for it to be a factor for a panicked perpetrator trying to stage a scene...but you're right, at this point it does seem irrelevant.
    Posted by BlueCrab:
    LOU Smit: "You know, I've looked at a lot of pictures in regards to this particular case and I can't remember seeing any bikes. What happened to the bikes?"

    JOHN RAMSEY: "Well, they were in the garage, I guess. JonBenet rode her bike for a moment outside before we went to the White's; just round the patio. I'm sure that went back in the garage. Patsy's bike, I don't know, it could have gone in the garage. I don't remember."

    LOU SMIT: "Have you seen it since, Patsy's bike?"

    JOHN RAMSEY: "Yeah. We have it."

    LOU SMIT: "(inaudible) took it?"

    JOHN RAMSEY: "No. We gave, JonBenet's bike we gave away. Patsy's bike we haven't (inaudible)."

    I consider this a controversial part of the interviews because, in regard to the bike, Lou Smit seems to have named the person who took it, but the transcriber notes "inaudible" in place of the name. Was the transcript edited to shield a person's name? JMO

    There was a crime scene photo 101 but it is not available.
    Last edited by Flatlander; 06-23-2012 at 07:54 PM. Reason: addition of photo 101


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