View Poll Results: Are the Ramseys involved or not?

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  • The Ramseys are somehow involved in the crime and/or cover-up

    742 73.83%
  • The Ramseys are not involved at all in the crime or cover-up

    263 26.17%
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Thread: Are the Ramseys involved or not?

  1. #1176
    Thanks for the links cynic.

    I had forgotten many points about the letter. I do not know how anyone does not think Patsy wrote that letter. I will repeat my earlier point, the letter is begging John to not call the police and to leave the house to get the money. I believe Patsy needed John out of the house to be free to move the body to her car and dump it somewhere. Over and over she pleads for him to just do as the writer says. Once she has the body out of the house then no one will blame them. She prestaged the body for dumping. John just didn't act as predicted. He ran through the house and made her call 911. At some point he realized he had be had by his wife...but he decided to help her cover up. Not sure why. I also believe Patsy was very unstable and under the influence of drugs and or alcohol. Something happened after John went to bed and she may have first cleaned up her daughter and cared for her, but either she died or Patsy thought she was dead and the staging began. I think the current police and DA are covering this up since Patsy cannot be brought to justice and the truth only makes them look incompetent.

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  3. #1177
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    Quote Originally Posted by vlpate View Post
    I'm not at all disagreeing with the coroner. I think the molestation was staged, not that it didn't happen. I believe the strangulation was staged, and it obviously happened.

    You know, I am back and forth on the staging of the sexual assault being staged to cover up. I lean toward it being something that was found while PR was staging, and why John kept his mouth shut. Still on the fence on a lot of why and how. I just know I don't have to go further than the R's to figure it out....
    vlpate,

    Coroner Meyers verbatim remarks on the molestation were: Sexual Contact and Digital Penetration.

    I'm not sure what your theory is, but where does a staged assault fit in, what function does it serve?


    .

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  5. #1178
    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy View Post
    vlpate,

    Coroner Meyers verbatim remarks on the molestation were: Sexual Contact and Digital Penetration.

    I'm not sure what your theory is, but where does a staged assault fit in, what function does it serve?


    .
    I know you were addressing another poster........

    I don't know about a staged assault but the staging of the crime scene is not done by strangers. strangers have no reason to make a crime seem like its not since they have no connection to the victim. The note was clearly staging, the garrotting could be staging and in my opinion is, the sexual assault i cannot explain but if the stager and in my opinion is Patsy wanted the stage to insinuate a sexual predator then perhaps she committed the assault. Perhaps the sexual assault was earlier in the evening...i don't know....but Patsy wrote that note and until that is explained away Patsy is my suspect.

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  7. #1179
    Is it possible patsy discovered a sexual assault or jonbenet told her about some sexual assault occurring earlier that day and Patsy got mad at her? is it possible as some people theorize Jonbenet did wet or soil herself and the "assault" was really an agressive and abusive washing of Jonbenet giving the same injury as a digital assault? Something set Mom off, and it resulted in a 8 inch crack in that child's skull? Slamming the girl against the tub perhaps, throwing down the stairs or a hard blow with a flashlight? I think Mom was a prescription drug addict and perhaps a drunk...so anything could have happened leading up to this.

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  9. #1180
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    to wear away a hymen there has to be hard pushing against it numerous times. aggressive wiping or cleaning up, is a different type of touch. you have to poke in hard to the hymen to get it to start to tear away... it hurts to feel that, and is why sex is usually quite painful to a woman the first few times.

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  11. #1181
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikebr View Post
    Is it possible patsy discovered a sexual assault or jonbenet told her about some sexual assault occurring earlier that day and Patsy got mad at her? is it possible as some people theorize Jonbenet did wet or soil herself and the "assault" was really an agressive and abusive washing of Jonbenet giving the same injury as a digital assault? Something set Mom off, and it resulted in a 8 inch crack in that child's skull? Slamming the girl against the tub perhaps, throwing down the stairs or a hard blow with a flashlight? I think Mom was a prescription drug addict and perhaps a drunk...so anything could have happened leading up to this.
    Mikebr,
    Yes it could be Patsy discovered that JonBenet had been assaulted.

    ? is it possible as some people theorize Jonbenet did wet or soil herself and the "assault" was really an agressive and abusive washing of Jonbenet giving the same injury as a digital assault?
    Yes this is explicitly mentioned in Steve Thomas' book and represents his PDI.

    A variation on this is that John restages a former staged crime-scene to edit out the sexual assault?

    PDI seems the most obvious answer until you get into the detail. Like if it was aggressive cleaning on Patsy's part. Why did Coroner Meyer explicitly opine that Sexual Contact took place. That phrase is coronor speak for molestation. Does that mean Patsy was molesting JonBenet? The Digital Penetration means that someone used their finger and not say the paintbrush handle.

    I interpret Coroner Meyer to be saying JonBenet was sexually assaulted then whacked on the head, and asphyxiated with a ligature.


    .

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  13. #1182
    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy View Post
    Mikebr,
    Yes it could be Patsy discovered that JonBenet had been assaulted.


    Yes this is explicitly mentioned in Steve Thomas' book and represents his PDI.

    A variation on this is that John restages a former staged crime-scene to edit out the sexual assault?

    PDI seems the most obvious answer until you get into the detail. Like if it was aggressive cleaning on Patsy's part. Why did Coroner Meyer explicitly opine that Sexual Contact took place. That phrase is coronor speak for molestation. Does that mean Patsy was molesting JonBenet? The Digital Penetration means that someone used their finger and not say the paintbrush handle.

    I interpret Coroner Meyer to be saying JonBenet was sexually assaulted then whacked on the head, and asphyxiated with a ligature.


    .
    Coroners don't aways get it right. It was an abraision and slight swelling that he saw. he has to draw a conclusion. Clearly the wack on the head was fatal and the ligature was fatal..which happened first my guess the blow to the head. I can only go back to that note. Patsy wrote it. Patsy did it. I have never read a book on this case.

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  15. #1183
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    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy View Post
    vlpate,

    Coroner Meyers verbatim remarks on the molestation were: Sexual Contact and Digital Penetration.

    I'm not sure what your theory is, but where does a staged assault fit in, what function does it serve?


    .
    I actually thought I'd answered this. I think it was staged because it was the ONLY aspect of the staging that wasn't violent. I think Patsy probably did something to hurt JonBenet on her privates and she wanted to cover it up by making it look like sexual abuse. There is just no way Patsy would have stayed with John all those years if she'd found out he was abusing JonBenet. Just knowing her personality, it seems to me she would take the money and run. Why help cover it up? Why subject Burke to him? There's way more there than meets the eye, obviously.

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  17. #1184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikebr View Post
    Is it possible patsy discovered a sexual assault or jonbenet told her about some sexual assault occurring earlier that day and Patsy got mad at her? is it possible as some people theorize Jonbenet did wet or soil herself and the "assault" was really an agressive and abusive washing of Jonbenet giving the same injury as a digital assault? Something set Mom off, and it resulted in a 8 inch crack in that child's skull? Slamming the girl against the tub perhaps, throwing down the stairs or a hard blow with a flashlight? I think Mom was a prescription drug addict and perhaps a drunk...so anything could have happened leading up to this.
    The coroner can tell if a child fell down the stairs, or was thrown. JB's body did not have bruises consistent with a fall down the stairs. Emergency room doctors can tell, too.
    The tub or flashlight are good possibilities, though. There was some mention of Patsy using a douche on JB to cleanse her more thoroughly after she soiled her pants. This isn't something that was ever proven, but it is definitely something that I can imagine Patsy would do.
    THIS time, we get it RIGHT!

    This post is my constitutionally-protected opinion. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

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  19. #1185
    Quote Originally Posted by Whaleshark View Post
    to wear away a hymen there has to be hard pushing against it numerous times. aggressive wiping or cleaning up, is a different type of touch. you have to poke in hard to the hymen to get it to start to tear away... it hurts to feel that, and is why sex is usually quite painful to a woman the first few times.
    I don't think the pathologist said the hymen was worn away or damaged. the irritation he observed extended to the hymen..like i said, not sure about what the autopsy report says..Patsy wrote that note...why did she write it? Until you explain why patsy wrote that note..or prove she didn't, the autopsy is irrelevent. No need to stage a kidnapping if you are not involved in the crime. Too bad Patsy is dead..i think the solution died with her.

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  21. #1186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whaleshark View Post
    to wear away a hymen there has to be hard pushing against it numerous times. aggressive wiping or cleaning up, is a different type of touch. you have to poke in hard to the hymen to get it to start to tear away... it hurts to feel that, and is why sex is usually quite painful to a woman the first few times.
    BEM: Absolutely different for many women (and children). Some females are born without a hymen. Some females have a hymen that is thin and easier to break. Some females break their hymen doing a variety of different things that don't include sex. Painful for the first few times? Not sure why it would be once the hymen is broken. The pain would have more to do with an act that the body has not been conditioned or stretched to. Tried hard there not to get too graphic

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  23. #1187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikebr View Post
    I don't think the pathologist said the hymen was worn away or damaged. the irritation he observed extended to the hymen..like i said, not sure about what the autopsy report says..Patsy wrote that note...why did she write it? Until you explain why patsy wrote that note..or prove she didn't, the autopsy is irrelevent. No need to stage a kidnapping if you are not involved in the crime. Too bad Patsy is dead..i think the solution died with her.
    The pathologist absolutely said the hymen was worn away in places. Erosion was noted. It wasn't just "irritation".
    THIS time, we get it RIGHT!

    This post is my constitutionally-protected opinion. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

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  25. #1188
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
    The pathologist absolutely said the hymen was worn away in places. Erosion was noted. It wasn't just "irritation".
    Actually, erosion can be caused by irritation....I haven't been able to find hymen erosion, but I did find:

    cervical erosion destruction of the squamous epithelium of the vaginal portion of the cervix, due to irritation and later ulceration.

    She went to the doctor several times for infection and irritation.

    I'm all about the previous molestation. It seems reasonable that Patsy suspected and resented JonBenet because "knowing" would mean the end of a cushy life...and maybe she had pent up anger and something happened that night to set PR off. She accidentally kills her. JR doesn't talk because Patsy will talk.


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  27. #1189
    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
    The pathologist absolutely said the hymen was worn away in places. Erosion was noted. It wasn't just "irritation".
    Ok i found the autopsy report online and did my best to understand it. It never mentioned hymen erosion but did refer to epithelial eroision. Lots of info on what the autopsy means in layman terms out there but not being a doctor i have no idea who's info is correct. Some people claim Cyril Wecht interprets the report to suggest that the abuse occurred days before not hours before her death...perhaps someone has that info. I am not even debating the sex abuse allegation since this could be inflicted by a woman as well as a man. Not to get too graphic. I still contend its the ransom note that points to nobody but Patsy. So if the evidence of abuse was staging or could it have been staging to cover the evidence of a prior abuse by a family member? So that evening perhaps, perhaps....Jonbenet soiled or wet herself....Patsy removed her clothes and bedding and thru them in the washer..i think there was evidence of that...then she discovered something was wrong in Jonbenet's privates and began to question her and Jonbenet told Patsy what happened. Perhaps it involved another family member and Patsy refused to accept it..became angry and in her drug and alcohol induced state struck out at Jonbenet with the flashlight crushing her skull...then began the staging...realizing there was evidence of sexual assault from that other family member she began to stage a sexual crime, she used her knowledge from the MindHunter book about the garrotte and strangled her dying daughter..dying from the 8.5" skull fracture..she left her in the basement and then came up with the kidnapping note to convince John to leave the house so she could finish the rest of her plan..dump the body along some road...ok that could explain the autopsy findings and still make Patsy the lone killer...but you did get me thinking...who did Jonbenet identify as her molester? And why did patsy think it more important to protect the molester...so was it an outburst leading to murder or premeditated?

    http://www.thesmokinggun.com/file/autopsy-report
    Last edited by Mikebr; 08-26-2011 at 08:08 AM. Reason: adding link

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  29. #1190
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    JR said Patsy didn't read those kinds of books at all. He said he was the avid reader and he liked adventure and all that crap. He was the one reading Mindhunter and all the other drama, crime, spy, thriller, type stories. He tried to minimize that when questioned, and acted like he had no idea about the books found in his rooms in his house: The Day After Tomorrow, Mindhunter, and others like it. He said Patsy, if she read at all, which was very little, was romance type of books, some decorating mags, and inspirational type stuff. He said she usually fell right asleep when she went to bed, never went to the library or read in bed, but that he was always the one reading in bed when he went to bed.....

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  31. #1191
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    This is all confusing to me. I didn't realize until recently that there was still a debate going on about this case. I thought it had been semi-resolved and that the Ramsay's didn't do it. Now I just don't know. It seems to me that if JonBenet was killed accidentally, the intruder thing wasn't staged very well. And I didn't realize that there was evidence that JonBenet was molested prior to the date of her death. Am I correct to assume when I read that there had been problems with infection and irritation, that this is in reference to JonBenet female parts? If so, that is extremely unusual. What 6 year old gets vaginal infections? I know I'm all over the place with this post, I'm just trying to comprehend it all. I liked John and Patsy when I had seen them on TV many years ago and did not want to imagine either of them could do this.

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  33. #1192
    Quote Originally Posted by Whaleshark View Post
    JR said Patsy didn't read those kinds of books at all. He said he was the avid reader and he liked adventure and all that crap. He was the one reading Mindhunter and all the other drama, crime, spy, thriller, type stories. He tried to minimize that when questioned, and acted like he had no idea about the books found in his rooms in his house: The Day After Tomorrow, Mindhunter, and others like it. He said Patsy, if she read at all, which was very little, was romance type of books, some decorating mags, and inspirational type stuff. He said she usually fell right asleep when she went to bed, never went to the library or read in bed, but that he was always the one reading in bed when he went to bed.....
    By what she put in the note, you can tell she is not very sophisticated in the ways of criminals...she wrote way too much...so I don't think she learned much from those books...she just thought she had...interesting link I found and it falls along with my first post to some degree about the letter, though I just found it. Haven't looked into who this profiler is, so it could be one of the many cranks that are out there..

    http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/...8/193035.shtml

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  35. #1193
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    Yes, there is still a debate going on about this case. It's a classic murder mystery. It really depends on your theory whether you think the case is semi-resolved. I think that either Burke or Patsy killed JonBenet, and Patsy is dead, and Burke can't be charged, and they won't go after John for covering anything up. However, I don't know what the reason was for the head bash, where it took place, what SBTC stands for, who witnessed what, who did what in the cover up, did anything happen on the drive home, etc. So although I have it semi-resolved about who killed JBR, I still have so many unanswered questions.

    BTW, I've noticed some posters on the JBR forum that I haven't seen before here. For those who just started posting here in the past weeks: Are you from the Caylee forum? It looks like the posters there are started to disperse out to the other cases.

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  37. #1194
    Quote Originally Posted by shgrbkr View Post
    This is all confusing to me. I didn't realize until recently that there was still a debate going on about this case. I thought it had been semi-resolved and that the Ramsay's didn't do it. Now I just don't know. It seems to me that if JonBenet was killed accidentally, the intruder thing wasn't staged very well. And I didn't realize that there was evidence that JonBenet was molested prior to the date of her death. Am I correct to assume when I read that there had been problems with infection and irritation, that this is in reference to JonBenet female parts? If so, that is extremely unusual. What 6 year old gets vaginal infections? I know I'm all over the place with this post, I'm just trying to comprehend it all. I liked John and Patsy when I had seen them on TV many years ago and did not want to imagine either of them could do this.
    Hi there,

    It has not been proved conclusively that JonBenet had been previously molested , the experts can't agree on it. She did have bed wetting problems and may have had a reaction to a particular type of bubble bath lotion. Her own GP said he did not see any evidence of sexual molestation and you would think he would be best placed to notice anything.

    imo there isn't evidence to suggest that John had sexually abused JonBenet.

    I am yet to be convinces that they did have anything to do with this.

    Mary Lacey the former DA in this case came out and cleared the Ramseys and wrote them a letter of apology - perhaps that is what you are referring to ?

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  39. #1195
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikebr View Post
    I don't think the pathologist said the hymen was worn away or damaged. the irritation he observed extended to the hymen..like i said, not sure about what the autopsy report says..Patsy wrote that note...why did she write it? Until you explain why patsy wrote that note..or prove she didn't, the autopsy is irrelevent. No need to stage a kidnapping if you are not involved in the crime. Too bad Patsy is dead..i think the solution died with her.
    A lot of people have said that, Mike. This case effectively ended with Patsy's death.
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  41. #1196
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    Quote Originally Posted by shgrbkr View Post
    It seems to me that if JonBenet was killed accidentally, the intruder thing wasn't staged very well.
    Hi, shgrbkr (sugarbaker!).

    No, it wasn't, which is what I would expect from a pair of highly agitated amateurs. What bothers me is that some people actually EXPECT that a couple of sheltered amateurs would do it WELL, if you take my meaning.

    And I didn't realize that there was evidence that JonBenet was molested prior to the date of her death. Am I correct to assume when I read that there had been problems with infection and irritation, that this is in reference to JonBenet female parts?
    You are correct, indeed.

    If so, that is extremely unusual. What 6 year old gets vaginal infections? I know I'm all over the place with this post, I'm just trying to comprehend it all.
    It's my hope you came to the right place!

    I liked John and Patsy when I had seen them on TV many years ago and did not want to imagine either of them could do this.
    Join the club, shgrbkr (hard as that is to imagine). Indeed, we hear a lot of that around here.
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  43. #1197
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    Quote Originally Posted by FairM View Post
    It has not been proved conclusively that JonBenet had been previously molested , the experts can't agree on it. She did have bed wetting problems and may have had a reaction to a particular type of bubble bath lotion. Her own GP said he did not see any evidence of sexual molestation and you would think he would be best placed to notice anything.
    Well, you would THINK that. Problem is, by his own admission, he never LOOKED for it. Specifically, he never performed the necessary tests that would have detected it. (There's also the little problem about how close he was to the Ramseys). Adding to that, there have been cases where a child's doctor didn't notice anything wrong until it was too late (Ricky Holland comes to mind).

    Put it this way: in order for me to believe that the results of the examination on the live body are legit, I have to believe that the results of the autopsy on the dead body are LIES.

    imo there isn't evidence to suggest that John had sexually abused JonBenet.
    You're welcome to that opinion, FairM. Just as I'm welcome to the opinion that his reactions about the subject are not, shall we say, cricket?

    I am yet to be convinced that they did have anything to do with this.
    You sure came to the right place, then! :grin:
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  45. #1198
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    i guess since this case has not reached trial and conviction that official documents are not very accessible. most of what i find online is from the National Inquirer type sources; and writers that i tend to find credible have nothing on this case. the jefferey macdonald case has a site that is easy to follow and full of credible documents.

    i think the patsey 911 call sounded ligit, she sounded scared and begged for help to get there quickly, not like a grieving person. i dont see how anyone who killed, staged in a few hours during the night could write 3 pages of a note legibly. (i'm prob misspelling words here!). i dont think a 9 year old boy would be capable of such a thing without prior and subsequent incidents. the description of john finding the body sounded odd and illogical. the behaviors of john and patsey since were odd; but then parents fixing their preschool girl all sexy like that was odd.

    i'm not convinced beyond reasonable doubt that john and/or patsy did it, dont believe that burke was capable; have not ruled out involvement of the half bro/sis (their alibi was their mother?). but there is deception there, but what and why?

    sloppy investigative work and lots of money on expensive lawyers.

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  47. #1199
    [QUOTE=FairM;7068902]Hi there,

    It has not been proved conclusively that JonBenet had been previously molested , the experts can't agree on it. She did have bed wetting problems and may have had a reaction to a particular type of bubble bath lotion. Her own GP said he did not see any evidence of sexual molestation and you would think he would be best placed to notice anything.

    [QUOTE]

    From what i have read, she had recently seen her GP perhaps a week before not sure, and he saw nothing. So if the coroner saw evidence of chronic abuse and cyril wecht said the abuse happened not at death but in the days before..is it possible the sex abuse by someone in their circle occurred between the last doctors visit and the death. I am convincing myself that Patsy discovered the abuse that night...but reacted to protect the molester, assuming she was not the molester. But something possibly made her believe the molestation would be exposed and she either in a violent outburst or a planned attack silenced Jonbenet by killing her. Then the staging began. If John was involved at that point, he would have dumped the body before calling the police. As I have said over and over, Patsy wrote that note to convince him not to call the police but to go get the money out of his "account," because the writer (Patsy) knew the money was in an account and not invested. The writer only addresses John and of course the ransom letter was completely fake and was not an attempt to get money..it was trying to get John out of the house long enough for Patsy to finish.....So my question is, who was she protecting?

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  49. #1200
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    Question: If JonBenet went to her regular doctor, WHY would he be examining a 6 year old's vaginal area?? That in and of itself is very strange indeed. The only reason I can think of is Was there a concern from someone that JB had possibly been molested? Did JB herself say something to that effect? It doesn't seem likely that either of these scenarios took place. So why was the GP looking down there?

    I have to agree that either Burke or Patsy would have been the most likely culprits, but it just makes me nauseous. Did Burke have some sort of explosive disorder? And is the bedwetting that big of a deal? My daughter had some bedwetting problems even into her teens and I can tell you she was never molested. She just slept really hard. Sorry for all the amateur questions, I just want to understand.

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