View Poll Results: Are the Ramseys involved or not?

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  • The Ramseys are somehow involved in the crime and/or cover-up

    802 74.74%
  • The Ramseys are not involved at all in the crime or cover-up

    271 25.26%
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  1. #871
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperDave View Post
    Snippets? You don't know the half of it.



    Yes, it has been stated that the use of a felt-tip pen really messed them up.
    Speaking of that felt tip pen. I have said this many, many, MANY times before. BUT...here I go again...when Patsy was asked for a sample of her handwriting by writing the words to the RN, did she use the same Sharpie pen that the "actual" RN author used? Does that make a difference? Why...yes...glad you asked. Because Sharpie's flatten with use. A brand new Sharpie will write better than one that is all squished down and flattened. IOW..if the Sharpie that was used to write the actual RN with had been used before, and the pen that Patsy used for her SAMPLE was new...then the tips would have been different, AND HENCE...the handwriting is going to look "somewhat" different. We know that there were ALOT, of similarities between the actual RN, and Patsy's SAMPLE RN...but, I wonder how many MORE similarities would there have been if the same pen had of been used? My guess is, that the actual pen from the night of the murder, was in an evidence room somewhere.
    "This time we get it right."


  2. #872
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holdontoyourhat View Post
    Pushing the envelope? Thats when you steer away blindly from hard evidence (ransom note) without more than a passing glance. Call it 'bogus' and forget about it. Thats pushing the investigative envelope, I think.
    Give me a break. Ron Walker knew it was phony the minute he laid eyes on it.

    For those interested, beheading is one form of execution. Immediate execution is the same thing as 'on the spot' execution, or execution without a trial.

    People really involved in this activity: military commanders, dictators, terrorists or extremists, kings, queens, and judges.
    That would have been my next choice. (Although, I'm not sure I'd pursue the "kings and queens" bit too much were I in your position.)

    Keeping in mind, tad, that beheading a child as a written threat is truly unique in the annals of crime. RDI casts it out the window by default.
    That's YOUR characterization of it. If you knew as much about RDI as you claim...well, what's the point?
    Vae Victus! (May the conquered suffer!)
    Celerem vindictam manu! (Swift hand of vengeance!)


  3. #873
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sophie View Post
    Kings and queens? I daresay there are some absolute monarchs I'm overlooking but QE2 and her European cousins have nothing to do with beheadings and hangings, capital punishment being outlawed in the EU, and European monarchs doing very little other than waving at people from cars given that their constitutional powers are barely even titular any more. I'm not sure about Far Eastern monarchies and how much power they retain...
    To my knowledge, Sophie, there's only one absolutist monarchy which beheads people without trial, and that's Saudi Arabia.

    BUT, I have to admit, there was something in what he said that got to me: the part about a leader telling the "men," to be rested to prepare for the next day. I can imagine a general saying that before a big mission. Heck, no need to imagine it! I was a Boy Scout. Our Scoutmaster told us that from time to time.

    But then, JR was in the Navy and BR was also a Boy Scout. OOPS!

    More to the point, the beheading thing was an unusual addition but, since there was no actual attempt to decapitate JBR, I'd be more inclined to attribute the use of the word to a heightened sense of drama than to someone who actually was familiar with decapitation as part of their 'job' function.
    That's what I keep trying to tell him!

    I'd have to assume that someone in the military or paramilitary or whatever would have taken the proper tools and done a more 'professional' job than clouting her over the head and and strangling her with a fairly primitive ligature.
    EXACTLY! Those guys are PROFESSIONAL killers! Whoever did this...it was amateur night. You could tell.
    Vae Victus! (May the conquered suffer!)
    Celerem vindictam manu! (Swift hand of vengeance!)


  4. #874
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holdontoyourhat View Post
    I'd take the 'Victory!' expression, and note that military commanders can execute on the spot, and 'tomorrow will be exhausting so I advise you to be rested' seems like something a leader says, not a ransom extortionist.

    I'd go with the military commander type, for sure. Even thought it 'points to an author used to exerting authority over others'

    We'll see what happens next.
    beheading violent fantasy: http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&ei...antasy&spell=1

    Man Decapitated 'Beheaded' aboard Greyhound bus
    http://www.nationalterroralert.com/u...nd-bus-canada/

    Best "Beheading/Extreme Violence titles: http://hungarian.imdb.de/keyword/beh...reme-violence/

    (Dead II, cult classic, not stop beheading in film.)


  5. #875
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ames View Post
    Speaking of that felt tip pen. I have said this many, many, MANY times before. BUT...here I go again...when Patsy was asked for a sample of her handwriting by writing the words to the RN, did she use the same Sharpie pen that the "actual" RN author used? Does that make a difference? Why...yes...glad you asked. Because Sharpie's flatten with use. A brand new Sharpie will write better than one that is all squished down and flattened. IOW..if the Sharpie that was used to write the actual RN with had been used before, and the pen that Patsy used for her SAMPLE was new...then the tips would have been different, AND HENCE...the handwriting is going to look "somewhat" different. We know that there were ALOT, of similarities between the actual RN, and Patsy's SAMPLE RN...but, I wonder how many MORE similarities would there have been if the same pen had of been used? My guess is, that the actual pen from the night of the murder, was in an evidence room somewhere.
    Ty for the info SD.

    Right. Something to consider. How pen itself affected the hand writing analysis. How PR changing her handwriting post crime could affect the results.

    "FISH (Forensic Information System for Handwriting) system, which allows examiners to scan in handwritten documents and digitize the comparison process, may speed up the process of general acceptance of handwriting analysis as a science and as expert evidence in court. "
    Maybe future analysis will change PR results (4.5) to a different position in the scale.


  6. #876
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tadpole12 View Post
    Ty for the info SD.

    Right. Something to consider. How pen itself affected the hand writing analysis. How PR changing her handwriting post crime could affect the results.

    "FISH (Forensic Information System for Handwriting) system, which allows examiners to scan in handwritten documents and digitize the comparison process, may speed up the process of general acceptance of handwriting analysis as a science and as expert evidence in court. "
    Maybe future analysis will change PR results (4.5) to a different position in the scale.
    FISH- I've heard of it.

    I only have one quibble with what you say, Tadpole: there IS no 1-5 scale. That was just something the mercenaries JR hired dreamed up.
    Vae Victus! (May the conquered suffer!)
    Celerem vindictam manu! (Swift hand of vengeance!)


  7. #877
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tadpole12 View Post
    Ty for the info SD.

    Right. Something to consider. How pen itself affected the hand writing analysis. How PR changing her handwriting post crime could affect the results.

    "FISH (Forensic Information System for Handwriting) system, which allows examiners to scan in handwritten documents and digitize the comparison process, may speed up the process of general acceptance of handwriting analysis as a science and as expert evidence in court. "
    Maybe future analysis will change PR results (4.5) to a different position in the scale.
    4.5 meaning...what?


  8. #878
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    only have one quibble with what you say, Tadpole: there IS no 1-5 scale. That was just something the mercenaries JR hired dreamed up. - SD

    Ty SD, for the insight.

    http://jonbenetramsey.pbwiki.com/Pat...y+as+RN+Author

    testimony of Alex Hunter -- A. I have. Q. --that is part of Defendant's Exhibit 9; have you not? A. Yes. Q. And you understand that from Alex Hunter's perspective, the sum total of the handwriting analysis done by the investigation on Patsy Ramsey was that she was somewhere at about a 4.5 on a 1 to 5 scale, with 5 being elimination. A. (Nods head). Q. Do you not, sir? A. That's what he says. Q. Thus, that from Alex Hunter's perspective, Patsy Ramsey was not eliminated by the experts chosen by the district attorney, but she was close to elimination; correct? A. That's what he says, yes."

    4.5 meaning...what? - Hotyh

    Patsy Ramsey Statement. From Larry King Live (3/28/2000): "KING: Is your handwriting cleared, both of you? P. RAMSEY: John's definitively was cleared. And I scored a 4.5 out of 5. Five is definitely no match, and it just..." CNN RUSH transcript (html). On Larry King Live (4/14/2000), Steve Thomas stated: "Well, they're saying that she scored a numerical scale of 4 1/2, but that apparently is from their own defense handwriting experts."



    Ya, trying to grasp all the material on line ..... I guess I was thinking of the CBI analysis rather than AH assessment.

    But my basic point is that the rn may be reanalysised and change PR status.


  9. #879
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tadpole12 View Post
    only have one quibble with what you say, Tadpole: there IS no 1-5 scale. That was just something the mercenaries JR hired dreamed up. - SD

    Ty SD, for the insight.

    http://jonbenetramsey.pbwiki.com/Pat...y+as+RN+Author

    testimony of Alex Hunter -- A. I have. Q. --that is part of Defendant's Exhibit 9; have you not? A. Yes. Q. And you understand that from Alex Hunter's perspective, the sum total of the handwriting analysis done by the investigation on Patsy Ramsey was that she was somewhere at about a 4.5 on a 1 to 5 scale, with 5 being elimination. A. (Nods head). Q. Do you not, sir? A. That's what he says. Q. Thus, that from Alex Hunter's perspective, Patsy Ramsey was not eliminated by the experts chosen by the district attorney, but she was close to elimination; correct? A. That's what he says, yes."

    4.5 meaning...what? - Hotyh

    Patsy Ramsey Statement. From Larry King Live (3/28/2000): "KING: Is your handwriting cleared, both of you? P. RAMSEY: John's definitively was cleared. And I scored a 4.5 out of 5. Five is definitely no match, and it just..." CNN RUSH transcript (html). On Larry King Live (4/14/2000), Steve Thomas stated: "Well, they're saying that she scored a numerical scale of 4 1/2, but that apparently is from their own defense handwriting experts."



    Ya, trying to grasp all the material on line ..... I guess I was thinking of the CBI analysis rather than AH assessment.

    But my basic point is that the rn may be reanalysised and change PR status.
    These two excerpts seem to contradict one another.

    The first describes results from the DA's hired expert, the 2nd describes results from R defense experts. Which expert is the 4.5 from?


  10. #880
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperDave View Post
    Give me a break. Ron Walker knew it was phony the minute he laid eyes on it.
    What do you say after it is discovered the RN author is in fact an authority figure or commander from a small foreign faction who believes in immediate executions?

    Oops?


  11. #881
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    I am pretty certain that this has been pointed out before, but Patsy was a Journalism major at college. I am just watching a news review in which the newscaster referred to an incident being attributed to an Israeli 'faction.' It's pretty much bog standard journalese, surely?


  12. The Following User Says Thank You to Sophie For This Useful Post:

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  13. #882
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holdontoyourhat View Post
    What do you say after it is discovered the RN author is in fact an authority figure or commander from a small foreign faction who believes in immediate executions?

    Oops?

    Say what?
    "This time we get it right."


  14. #883
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tadpole12 View Post
    only have one quibble with what you say, Tadpole: there IS no 1-5 scale. That was just something the mercenaries JR hired dreamed up. - SD

    Ty SD, for the insight.

    http://jonbenetramsey.pbwiki.com/Pat...y+as+RN+Author

    testimony of Alex Hunter -- A. I have. Q. --that is part of Defendant's Exhibit 9; have you not? A. Yes. Q. And you understand that from Alex Hunter's perspective, the sum total of the handwriting analysis done by the investigation on Patsy Ramsey was that she was somewhere at about a 4.5 on a 1 to 5 scale, with 5 being elimination. A. (Nods head). Q. Do you not, sir? A. That's what he says. Q. Thus, that from Alex Hunter's perspective, Patsy Ramsey was not eliminated by the experts chosen by the district attorney, but she was close to elimination; correct? A. That's what he says, yes."

    4.5 meaning...what? - Hotyh

    Patsy Ramsey Statement. From Larry King Live (3/28/2000): "KING: Is your handwriting cleared, both of you? P. RAMSEY: John's definitively was cleared. And I scored a 4.5 out of 5. Five is definitely no match, and it just..." CNN RUSH transcript (html). On Larry King Live (4/14/2000), Steve Thomas stated: "Well, they're saying that she scored a numerical scale of 4 1/2, but that apparently is from their own defense handwriting experts."


    Ya, trying to grasp all the material on line ..... I guess I was thinking of the CBI analysis rather than AH assessment.
    No sweat. AH himself in April of 2000 said that he thought the whole scale was nonsense. He wanted to let a jury make up its own mind from a visual display.

    As for the CBI analysis, the closest we have is Ubowski saying that it was only the bleeding ink and disguised letters that kept him from clearly identifying her, per FOXNews.

    But my basic point is that the rn may be reanalysised and change PR status.
    It might be at that.
    Vae Victus! (May the conquered suffer!)
    Celerem vindictam manu! (Swift hand of vengeance!)


  15. #884
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holdontoyourhat View Post
    What do you say after it is discovered the RN author is in fact an authority figure or commander from a small foreign faction who believes in immediate executions?

    Oops?
    Jumping the gun a bit, aren't we?
    Vae Victus! (May the conquered suffer!)
    Celerem vindictam manu! (Swift hand of vengeance!)


  16. #885
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sophie View Post
    I am pretty certain that this has been pointed out before, but Patsy was a Journalism major at college. I am just watching a news review in which the newscaster referred to an incident being attributed to an Israeli 'faction.' It's pretty much bog standard journalese, surely?
    Yeah, it is.

    Another thing to keep in mind: 1996, the year this killing happened, was a milestone in that it was really the first time the name "Osama bin Laden" began to be heard in mainstream America. He'd been known to covert operatives before then, but 1996 was when he settled in Afghanistan. Summer of 1996 was bin Laden's breakout, as it were.
    Vae Victus! (May the conquered suffer!)
    Celerem vindictam manu! (Swift hand of vengeance!)


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