View Poll Results: Are the Ramseys involved or not?

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  • The Ramseys are somehow involved in the crime and/or cover-up

    742 73.83%
  • The Ramseys are not involved at all in the crime or cover-up

    263 26.17%
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Thread: Are the Ramseys involved or not?

  1. #1626
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    Quote Originally Posted by SapphireSteel View Post
    LMAO! Well I guess I'm RDI too then!

    I seriously cannot believe that there are people out there who still believe the Ramseys innocent. It beggars belief, if you actually know the FACTS and not just media tripe, there is absolutely no question as to their guilt, junk DNA or not.

    I also cannot believe that Lacey & co have been able to preside over one of the biggest miscarriages of justice I have ever seen, and not be somehow held accountable. How can she look at herself in the mirror every day?

    JBR is sadly, a perfect example of how NOT to handle an investigation. She has been abused in life, and death, and I for one will never forget about her until some justice had been done.

    I believe that PR received some karmic justice, at least. JR's is on it's way.

    SapphireSteel,
    I also cannot believe that Lacey & co have been able to preside over one of the biggest miscarriages of justice I have ever seen, and not be somehow held accountable. How can she look at herself in the mirror every day?
    Too true. But in the circles Lacey and friends move, JonBenet is simply collateral damage, fodder for their career moves. They are not interested in the Justice thing just the career advancement thing, only the politics and money matter to them.

    Lets hope SD's book exposes them for what they are?


    .
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  3. #1627
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    Quote Originally Posted by ILikeToBendPages View Post
    What would you tell police when you call to tell them you went in to wake your six year old daughter and she's dead? They would had to give an accounting of the head bash and the prior vaginal penetration and trauma. JonBenet didn't just go to bed with those injuries. She was asleep on the drive home and John carried her up and put her in bed..or she was wake and John read to her.. John Ramsey is the last person said to of been with JonBenet in those two statements.

    So the next best thing is for someone else. Anyone else. A disgruntled employee/ small foreign faction has taken her, leaving behind a three page ransom letter telling you what will happen if you don't follow their instructions completely and...... they just leave her behind in a little known lowest furthest darkest dirtest room in your home after sexuality abusing her then strangling her to death. Well if you believe that ransom letter you'll believe anything.
    So if I may ask Is it the general consensus on this thread that JBR had been sexually abused by by John,Burke,or Patsy?...or all of them?

    If this is why they were afraid of this being found out, then why invent the 3 page ransom note about some Foreign Faction who only needed a very small but precise amount of money from John Ramsey, but on their out the door they decided to sexually assault JonBenet, and strangle her, and leave her there. I mean if this was the case why would they not just take her with them and wait for the ransom money to be paid.

    If the Ramseys fabricated this cover-up, wouldn't it make more sense to have us believe some pervert saw JonBenet , stalked her, and took her that night. No ransom note just took her and disposed of her body. Surely finding her in their own basement was the perfect reason to implicate a family member, right?

    If this is what happened, the Ramsey's should of been arrested for sheer stupidity. This case will at least leave it's mark in history, if only as an educational tool for law schools, when needing the "Perfect Storm of Ineptness" of a case. This is ONLY MY opinion.

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  5. #1628
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.U.Kidding! View Post
    So if I may ask Is it the general consensus on this thread that JBR had been sexually abused by by John,Burke,or Patsy?...or all of them?

    If this is why they were afraid of this being found out, then why invent the 3 page ransom note about some Foreign Faction who only needed a very small but precise amount of money from John Ramsey, but on their out the door they decided to sexually assault JonBenet, and strangle her, and leave her there. I mean if this was the case why would they not just take her with them and wait for the ransom money to be paid.

    If the Ramseys fabricated this cover-up, wouldn't it make more sense to have us believe some pervert saw JonBenet , stalked her, and took her that night. No ransom note just took her and disposed of her body. Surely finding her in their own basement was the perfect reason to implicate a family member, right?

    If this is what happened, the Ramsey's should of been arrested for sheer stupidity. This case will at least leave it's mark in history, if only as an educational tool for law schools, when needing the "Perfect Storm of Ineptness" of a case. This is ONLY MY opinion.
    There's been a lot of discussion about why the R's didn't dump JBR's body outside. Some of the possibilities brought up have been they couldn't risk anyone seeing them, Patsy would not want her "beauty queen" exposed to the elements, and religious reasons.

    The "Crimes Against Children" forum is filled with cases where the child is found murdered in their home, and the parents/guardians are usually arrested on the spot. These people never come up with any story, or if they do, it's the standard "She/He fell down the stairs!"

    I think the whole intruder story is BS, but the R's have seemed to have gotten away with it, plus there's quite a few people who believe it. Although, I wouldn't recommend anyone who isn't wealthy trying it....

    In every case, when the parent(s) have killed the child, the two "options" seem to be: 1. Dump the child's body outside, and report him/her missing or 2.) Call LE and claim that the child's death was a complete accident. The Ramsey case is unique in that the parents (IMO) left the body in the house, and claimed an intruder entered their home and murdered their child.

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  7. #1629
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    Hello,

    I am a long time lurker who finally decided to register. First I just wanted to say a big thank you to those of you who have dedicated so much time to putting all this information out in an organized manner. I was too young to be interested in this case when it was current (12) but over the years my mother's interest has rubbed off on me. I have read DOI, PMPT, and ST's book. To answer the thread's question-- I do believe, in my heart of hearts, that one (or all) of the immediate family are responsible to some degree.

    I apologize if this does not belong here, but I have been interested in seeing archieved TV footage of the Ramseys from their many media appearances right after the murder. I have checked YouTube, is there somewhere else these can be found? I believe a lot can be told from their body languange and I unfortunatly missed seeing this 15 years ago.
    Thank you!

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  9. #1630
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olivia&Eve View Post
    Hello,

    I am a long time lurker who finally decided to register. First I just wanted to say a big thank you to those of you who have dedicated so much time to putting all this information out in an organized manner. I was too young to be interested in this case when it was current (12) but over the years my mother's interest has rubbed off on me. I have read DOI, PMPT, and ST's book. To answer the thread's question-- I do believe, in my heart of hearts, that one (or all) of the immediate family are responsible to some degree.

    I apologize if this does not belong here, but I have been interested in seeing archieved TV footage of the Ramseys from their many media appearances right after the murder. I have checked YouTube, is there somewhere else these can be found? I believe a lot can be told from their body languange and I unfortunatly missed seeing this 15 years ago.
    Thank you!
    They actually didn't make that many media appearances right after the murder. Here's a list:

    January 1997 CNN Interview
    May 1997 Press Conference
    July 1998 British TV Special
    November 1999 Nashville interview

    Then, in March 2000, they made many media appearances to promote their book. Are you also interested in 2000 and later media appearances?

    Here's a very short clip of the January 1997 interview:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAFmNapkpfQ"]Patsy Ramsey on CNN - YouTube[/ame]

    Here's Patsy being interviewed by LE in July 1998:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlxJRb5T_XM"]Patsy Ramsey Interrogation with Tom Haney and Trip DeMuth - YouTube[/ame]

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  11. #1631
    Quote Originally Posted by R.U.Kidding! View Post
    So if I may ask Is it the general consensus on this thread that JBR had been sexually abused by by John,Burke,or Patsy?...or all of them?

    If this is why they were afraid of this being found out, then why invent the 3 page ransom note about some Foreign Faction who only needed a very small but precise amount of money from John Ramsey, but on their out the door they decided to sexually assault JonBenet, and strangle her, and leave her there. I mean if this was the case why would they not just take her with them and wait for the ransom money to be paid.

    If the Ratesionmseys fabricated this cover-up, wouldn't it make more sense to have us believe some pervert saw JonBenet , stalked her, and took her that night. No ransom note just took her and disposed of her body. Surely finding her in their own basement was the perfect reason to implicate a family member, right?

    If this is what happened, the Ramsey's should of been arrested for sheer stupidity. This case will at least leave it's mark in history, if only as an educational tool for law schools, when needing the "Perfect Storm of Ineptness" of a case. This is ONLY MY opinion.


    There are several videos of JonBenet (the God Bless America video is the first I noticed the bruises) that show bruises on the inner part of her right arm up. Looks like old finger bruises. Not one but several. Then go look up the Christmas morning photo of JonBenet and Pasty. Pasty has her hand clamped (her hand isn't just resting there ,you can see the tension) on JonBenet right arm in the same place as the old finger bruises in the videos.

    Read Perfect Murder Perfect Town and Steve Thomas's book. Read all the WebSleuths threads. Go to ACandyrose and read all that it there. Go online and look at photos and videos of JonBenet's progression of being sexualized with each pageant.

    JonBenet was an abused and exploited little girl. Pasty, sister Pam and the driving force of Nedra Paugh, Pasty's mother, were the ones that were hellbent on JonBenet winning the Miss America crown that she and her sister never could. Nedra Paugh said when asked if JonBenet didn't want to do the pageants she would be told she would do them. JonBenet was a little girl under tremendous pressure and stress to win.

    "If the Ratesionmseys fabricated this cover-up, wouldn't it make more sense to have us believe some pervert saw JonBenet , stalked her, and took her that night. No ransom note just took her and disposed of her body."

    The Ramsey's had a story of a strange man approaching a float that JonBenet was on in a parade. Could of been someone wanting a better look at the parade.

    John and Pasty couldn't leave the house for fear of being seen or heard. So they had to come up with the story that someone came in and took JonBenet and left a strange rambling three page ransom letter and then left a dead and molested JonBenet in her own home. Not well thought out or original, but they did their best with what they had gleaned from books and movies. I'm sure they learned more about DNA, forensics or the lack thereof than they ever wanted.

    If you had your little girl taken from her own bed and had instructions that you were to follow to insure her well-being and safety, and that you were being monitored and watched, why would you call not one, but several of your friends over along with the police? If the ransom letter was true wouldn't the call to have friends over be a risk in JonBenet being"beheaded" like threatened in the ransom letter? And then she is found with a cord tightly embedded in her tiny neck in her own home later that day.

    If you had your beautiful little girl taken from the safety of her bed and then found strangled and sexually abused in her own home wouldn't you be bending over backwards wanting to help law enforcement in finding who did this terrible thing and killed your little girl? And still be doing so?

    Why would you call in lawyers for every member of your family to keep LE at bay and hide behind instead of just answering their questions to help find her killer? Even your ex-wife in Atlanta Georgia was given one. Why? I mean none of you have nothing to hide right? You want your daughter's killer brought to justice don't you? You'd want the person that did horrendous things to your daughter stopped so another little girl would be spared wouldn't you? But they didn't and he hasn't. Why?

    Why go on every talk show and put down the police as inept and having an agenda of only looking at you and your wife, but not helping them in answering their questions. Why demand and get to look over all that LE had discovered and gathered before you would give them an interview? Why demand and get to review a list of questions that you would be asked?

    Would you ever just go on with life and write several books telling about the journey you've had since her murder and your wife's death? But still not looking or helping the police in finding her killer? Why would you and your wife not help from the very moment when JonBenet was found?

    John Ramsey had money for Pasty to blow through for beauty pageants,but not for real private investigators to help LE find her killer. Why? Was JonBenet only worth the money alive?

    Why turn on every friend that wasn't on board with a intruder killing JonBenet and point the finger at them as her molester and killer?

    I'm not sure about Burke other than he and JonBenet playing doctor and that could account for the previous sexual contact. Maybe he got mad at her and hit her, but everything else was done by John or Pasty.

    I'm leaning towards Pasty being the source of previous "sexual contact" but Pasty angry and rough when she cleaned JonBenet after accidents. And Pasty in a rage doing the head bash. Not sure if she did all or what part of the staging., but the prevous vaginal penetration and brusing had to be hid and that was the reason for the sexual assault that night. I think the cord around her neck to was to hide a previous injury and to finish her off.

    John Andrew Ramsey could be a contender. He had frequent access to her and there was that one neighbor that said he saw him Christmas day near the Ramsey's home. Still is a family member and a cover up to hide what happened to her.

    John. John has placed himself in at least two statements of being the last person with JonBenet in her bedroom Christmas night and the first person with her body the next day. But I would of expected more or less in the crime scene from his list of movies and books.


    I don't think Pasty or John planned very far past JonBenet missing and dead in their home and their story of a intruder or that they would considered suspects. I wonder at times at what the crime scene would of been like if they had more time or imagination.
    Last edited by ILikeToBendPages; 06-20-2012 at 04:46 PM.

    All opinions expressed by me on Websleuths are my very own thoughts, not yours, and are to stay on this website

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  13. #1632
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    She was one piece of work, all right.

    To those who say..."why would she?"..."what's the motive?"...I say that something very dysfunctional had been going on between PR and her beautiful daughter for a very long time. Parents do abuse their children, for no other reason than personal satisfaction or pleasure. We are finding out more and more about female pedophiles - even 5 years ago the thought they existed in such numbers would've been scoffed by everyone, including possibly the experts. Now thanks to the likes of Melissa Huckaby and Erika Susan Perdue we know that they DO exist, quite a few of them it seems, in all levels of society.

    Who knows why they do what they do? Not me. I suspect in PR's case there was a mental disorder like Muchausen by Proxy, and some sort of ongoing abuse that PR was inflicitng on JBR, mainly to get medical attention. I think her urinary infections were induced (somehow!) by PR, and this is one of the reasons JBR lacked a hymen and showed healed trama. It is also possible that JR was the pedophile, and PR aided and abetted him. It is remotely possible that it was her brother and everything that followed was an elaborate set up to protect him - this I personally do not believe.

    I think the entire event was based around PR's need for attention. I think JR knew this and was also somehow involved in the ongoing abuse of JBR.

    The only reason to stage such a ridiculous kidnapping in the mind of a woman like this (who had to quickly think of a cover-up) naturally centres around her need for attention - which she got, in spades. What's more glamorous, a kidnapping or a child murderer? Would a Southern Belle, given a choice, instinctively go for "kidnapping" because it is so much less icky and more dramatic than some faceless intruder? Don't forget, there was no sexual abuse at the time of death, so she wouldn't be thinking "sexual" cover up.

    Also, it ensures everyone watching knows that she and her husband have lots and lots of money. She did have her house open to the public for tours too, to show how fabulously she lived. The mechanics of keeping a house that size that perfect for that long with 2 small kids is absolutely mind boggling and one has to question who would do that in the first place?

    PR was all about appearances. She had one dead daughter to explain. Is she going for the grubby little home invader, or the glamourous foreign faction?

    Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that one out.

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  15. #1633
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    Quote Originally Posted by ILikeToBendPages View Post
    There are several videos of JonBenet (the God Bless America video is the first I noticed the bruises) that show bruises on the inner part of her right arm up. Looks like old finger bruises. Not one but several. Then go look up the Christmas morning photo of JonBenet and Pasty. Pasty has her hand clamped (her hand isn't just resting there ,you can see the tension) on JonBenet right arm in the same place as the old finger bruises in the videos.

    Read Perfect Murder Perfect Town and Steve Thomas's book. Read all the WebSleuths threads. Go to ACandyrose and read all that it there. Go online and look at photos and videos of JonBenet's progression of being sexualized with each pageant.

    JonBenet was an abused and exploited little girl. Pasty, sister Pam and the driving force of Nedra Paugh, Pasty's mother, were the ones that were hellbent on JonBenet winning the Miss America crown that she and her sister never could. Nedra Paugh said when asked if JonBenet didn't want to do the pageants she would be told she would do them. JonBenet was a little girl under tremendous pressure and stress to win.

    "If the Ratesionmseys fabricated this cover-up, wouldn't it make more sense to have us believe some pervert saw JonBenet , stalked her, and took her that night. No ransom note just took her and disposed of her body."

    The Ramsey's had a story of a strange man approaching a float that JonBenet was on in a parade. Could of been someone wanting a better look at the parade.

    John and Pasty couldn't leave the house for fear of being seen or heard. So they had to come up with the story that someone came in and took JonBenet and left a strange rambling three page ransom letter and then left a dead and molested JonBenet in her own home. Not well thought out or original, but they did their best with what they had gleaned from books and movies. I'm sure they learned more about DNA, forensics or the lack thereof than they ever wanted.

    If you had your little girl taken from her own bed and had instructions that you were to follow to insure her well-being and safety, and that you were being monitored and watched, why would you call not one, but several of your friends over along with the police? If the ransom letter was true wouldn't the call to have friends over be a risk in JonBenet being"beheaded" like threatened in the ransom letter? And then she is found with a cord tightly embedded in her tiny neck in her own home later that day.

    If you had your beautiful little girl taken from the safety of her bed and then found strangled and sexually abused in her own home wouldn't you be bending over backwards wanting to help law enforcement in finding who did this terrible thing and killed your little girl? And still be doing so?

    Why would you call in lawyers for every member of your family to keep LE at bay and hide behind instead of just answering their questions to help find her killer? Even your ex-wife in Atlanta Georgia was given one. Why? I mean none of you have nothing to hide right? You want your daughter's killer brought to justice don't you? You'd want the person that did horrendous things to your daughter stopped so another little girl would be spared wouldn't you? But they didn't and he hasn't. Why?

    Why go on every talk show and put down the police as inept and having an agenda of only looking at you and your wife, but not helping them in answering their questions. Why demand and get to look over all that LE had discovered and gathered before you would give them an interview? Why demand and get to review a list of questions that you would be asked?

    Would you ever just go on with life and write several books telling about the journey you've had since her murder and your wife's death? But still not looking or helping the police in finding her killer? Why would you and your wife not help from the very moment when JonBenet was found?

    John Ramsey had money for Pasty to blow through for beauty pageants,but not for real private investigators to help LE find her killer. Why? Was JonBenet only worth the money alive?

    Why turn on every friend that wasn't on board with a intruder killing JonBenet and point the finger at them as her molester and killer?

    I'm not sure about Burke other than he and JonBenet playing doctor and that could account for the previous sexual contact. Maybe he got mad at her and hit her, but everything else was done by John or Pasty.

    I'm leaning towards Pasty being the source of previous "sexual contact" but Pasty angry and rough when she cleaned JonBenet after accidents. And Pasty in a rage doing the head bash. Not sure if she did all or what part of the staging., but the prevous vaginal penetration and brusing had to be hid and that was the reason for the sexual assault that night. I think the cord around her neck to was to hide a previous injury and to finish her off.

    John Andrew Ramsey could be a contender. He had frequent access to her and there was that one neighbor that said he saw him Christmas day near the Ramsey's home. Still is a family member and a cover up to hide what happened to her.

    John. John has placed himself in at least two statements of being the last person with JonBenet in her bedroom Christmas night and the first person with her body the next day. But I would of expected more or less in the crime scene from his list of movies and books.


    I don't think Pasty or John planned very far past JonBenet missing and dead in their home and their story of a intruder or that they would considered suspects. I wonder at times at what the crime scene would of been like if they had more time or imagination.
    ILikeToBendPages,
    John and Pasty couldn't leave the house for fear of being seen or heard. So they had to come up with the story that someone came in and took JonBenet and left a strange rambling three page ransom letter and then left a dead and molested JonBenet in her own home. Not well thought out or original, but they did their best with what they had gleaned from books and movies. I'm sure they learned more about DNA, forensics or the lack thereof than they ever wanted.
    I used to believe that, but a little thought might dispel it.

    There really was nothing to stop JonBenet being dumped outdoors. John or Patsy could have disguised themselves, e.g. put a sack over their heads and walked up the street, without JonBenet, then if all was OK, come back for the body etc.

    This is actually another reason why I think conspiracy, probably organized via that cell-phone, because in most cases where domestic sexual abuse takes place, along with a homicide, a parent, usually the male, does indeed dump the body away from the house. This is one of the staging indicators, since no intruder needs to dump the body outdoors, obviously its not infallible.

    Another indicator is that we know John and Patsy expected JonBenet to be found rather quickly, e.g. before the ransom note deadline. When she was not found, John discovered her.

    So we know John, Patsy and Burke are all involved, they covered for each other. Now Burke does not want to be interviewed by the cold-case detectives.

    I am now tending towards BDI, based on the assumption that legal silence could only be guaranteed, with everyone co-operating, and for that either everyone involved was venally corrupt, or the legal situation requires it. Also none of the orders of confidentiality have been broken. These normally are, after a time-lapse?


    Also BDI is the most consistent explanation of the forensic evidence, all the others have unexplained holes, e.g. why did Patsy not cleanup the breakfast bar?



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  17. #1634
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    Personally I don't think Burke did it, but I think he is the key to solving this.

    I also think he won't voluntarily open his mouth until his father dies. When that occurs, we shall see. In the meantime, I would like to see an inquest held, where he is brought to a judge as an adult, and compelled under the law to answer questions.

    That's what we do in Australia when there is an unexplained death. It is how Daniel Morcombe's murder was solved - all evidence and witnesses/suspects/involved parties brought together in a court of law in one hearing. It revealed a minor discrepancy which ended up in the case being solved and his body found.

    IMO the Colorado DA's office and govt have no desire for this to be rehashed once again, so no such inquest will occur in the foreseeable future. The only way really for this to happen is public pressure to force it to happen, but thanks to Lacey most Americans believe the Ramsey's were exonerated.

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  19. #1635
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    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy View Post
    ILikeToBendPages,

    I used to believe that, but a little thought might dispel it.

    There really was nothing to stop JonBenet being dumped outdoors. John or Patsy could have disguised themselves, e.g. put a sack over their heads and walked up the street, without JonBenet, then if all was OK, come back for the body etc.

    This is actually another reason why I think conspiracy, probably organized via that cell-phone, because in most cases where domestic sexual abuse takes place, along with a homicide, a parent, usually the male, does indeed dump the body away from the house. This is one of the staging indicators, since no intruder needs to dump the body outdoors, obviously its not infallible.

    Another indicator is that we know John and Patsy expected JonBenet to be found rather quickly, e.g. before the ransom note deadline. When she was not found, John discovered her.

    So we know John, Patsy and Burke are all involved, they covered for each other. Now Burke does not want to be interviewed by the cold-case detectives.

    I am now tending towards BDI, based on the assumption that legal silence could only be guaranteed, with everyone co-operating, and for that either everyone involved was venally corrupt, or the legal situation requires it. Also none of the orders of confidentiality have been broken. These normally are, after a time-lapse?


    Also BDI is the most consistent explanation of the forensic evidence, all the others have unexplained holes, e.g. why did Patsy not cleanup the breakfast bar?



    .
    There was. It was freezing cold. Why go out in that weather when you have a massive house to hide her in?

    Then, there's the issue of the footprints in the snow...if you dump her outside, you then have to fake footprints going...where?

    Unfortunately for the Ramseys, they didn't realise it worked against them as well. No footprints=no intruder.

    Duh.

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  21. #1636
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    Quote Originally Posted by SapphireSteel View Post
    There was. It was freezing cold. Why go out in that weather when you have a massive house to hide her in?

    Then, there's the issue of the footprints in the snow...if you dump her outside, you then have to fake footprints going...where?

    Unfortunately for the Ramseys, they didn't realise it worked against them as well. No footprints=no intruder.

    Duh.
    SapphireSteel,
    From memory the snow thing is not critical since the snow was not deposited uniformly. Or it was frozen and compact so would not display footprints. I do not think it was as big a deal as described.

    It was freezing cold. Why go out in that weather when you have a massive house to hide her in?
    In general, because this is what most perpetrators do. Check google for cases, particularly in molestation cases where a male knows he will be at the top of the suspect list, so he erroneously thinks, no body in the house, I can blame an intruder!


    It just seems so obvious, the R's wanted an abduction not an intruder led dump-site, otherwise JonBenet would have been left on the roadside somewhere?



    .

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  23. #1637
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    Here's something interesting I've read: The media prefers to cover cases where the child is missing. JonBenet is the only high-profile case I can think of where the child was never missing and it never went to trial. Look at how many posts cases in the "Missing" section get compared to how posts cases in "Crimes Against Children" receive. Mark Fuhrman wrote an entire book about this; He said that when a child is missing, the media can report on "The Search for ______" which can easily turn into a frenzy. Think about it; you can have the parents pleading for the abductor to give their child back, LE is more likely to give frequent press conferences, there will thousands of people searching, they can report on all the legitimate and fake findings they find, etc.

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  25. #1638
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.U.Kidding! View Post
    So if I may ask Is it the general consensus on this thread that JBR had been sexually abused by by John,Burke,or Patsy?...or all of them?

    If this is why they were afraid of this being found out, then why invent the 3 page ransom note about some Foreign Faction who only needed a very small but precise amount of money from John Ramsey, but on their out the door they decided to sexually assault JonBenet, and strangle her, and leave her there. I mean if this was the case why would they not just take her with them and wait for the ransom money to be paid.

    If the Ramseys fabricated this cover-up, wouldn't it make more sense to have us believe some pervert saw JonBenet , stalked her, and took her that night. No ransom note just took her and disposed of her body. Surely finding her in their own basement was the perfect reason to implicate a family member, right?

    If this is what happened, the Ramsey's should of been arrested for sheer stupidity. This case will at least leave it's mark in history, if only as an educational tool for law schools, when needing the "Perfect Storm of Ineptness" of a case. This is ONLY MY opinion.
    I personally don't believe ALL of them were abusing JB, but I do believe some one in the family was. One FACT is that something penetrated JB's vagina THAT night with enough force to cause her to bleed from the vagina. Her OWN blood was found in small amounts in her vagina, and evidence of a larger amount having been wiped from her thighs and pubic area was also noted in the autopsy. THIS is what is meant by acute sexual assault. The CHRONIC sexual assault is evidenced by the erosion of the hymen and widening of her vaginal canal, both noted by the forensic specialists.
    Whatever caused her to bleed must have HURT and I believe it prompted her to scream. (which was heard by a neighbor). And I believe her scream prompted whoever was molesting her to bash her on the head (IMO the flashlight was used- it is the only explanation for the flashlight having been OPENED and the batteries wiped down).
    I agree with the suggestions that you read ST' book and Lawrence Schiller's PMPT. Acandyrose is where I got a lot of my information as well. If you can, you can also rent the DVD version of PMPT as well. I found it on Netflix and and eventually bought my own copy. It is fairly unbiased. And it is a 2-hour "crash course" on the case.
    THIS time, we get it RIGHT!

    This post is my constitutionally-protected opinion. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

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  27. #1639
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    Is this a weird part of Patsy's April 1997 interview or what....

    TT: Right. And on of those had something about a kitty game, that was her favorite game. You remember what that’s about?
    PR: Kitty?
    TT: Yeah.
    PR: To play kitty. Yeah, she likes to play kitty (inaudible).
    TT: Uh.
    PR: You don’t like kitty huh. She and Daphne like to, they love kittens. And we had some kittens up at the lake (inaudible). And she and Daphne like to pretend they were kittens. She’s just, they would walk around and they would say, oh there’s a kitty, (inaudible). Let’s go into the pet shop, I think I’ll buy this one.
    I feel like we've discussed it before but I couldn't find anything when I searched...

    I wonder if the inaudible part was Patsy saying, "Mwor"

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  29. #1640
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
    Whatever caused her to bleed must have HURT and I believe it prompted her to scream. (which was heard by a neighbor). And I believe her scream prompted whoever was molesting her to bash her on the head

    This brought back a very vivid memory of when my now 3 year old bit my husband while playing. His instant reflex reaction was to smack her..probably way too hard. He felt horrible, but stated it scared and surprised him, that was his first reaction. Is it completely unreasonable to wonder if her screams startled the abuser so much that the smack with the flashlight was almost like a reflex and not intended to be a fatal injury? Only a quick "knee jerk" reaction?

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  31. #1641
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olivia&Eve View Post
    This brought back a very vivid memory of when my now 3 year old bit my husband while playing. His instant reflex reaction was to smack her..probably way too hard. He felt horrible, but stated it scared and surprised him, that was his first reaction. Is it completely unreasonable to wonder if her screams startled the abuser so much that the smack with the flashlight was almost like a reflex and not intended to be a fatal injury? Only a quick "knee jerk" reaction?
    Possible, certainly. That is what is meant when we say her death may have been "unintentional"- which is different from accidental. Bashing her wasn't an accident. No one hits someone with enough force to crack open their skull accidentally. But it was not intended to be a fatal injury. Once it had happened, most forensic specialist agree that the head blow would have rendered her instantly unconscious, and possibly even comatose. She may have convulsed. (this would account for the vomit/mucous on her cheek). But she may have appeared dead to an untrained eye, especially if she did go into a coma or shock. If that happened, her body would get cold, as body temperature drops in a coma or shock, and her breathing might become so shallow as to seem to be absent.
    Once JB seemed to be dead or so irreversibly damaged that there was no turning back- there were only two ways forward- call 911 and tell the truth- which may result in the sexual abuse being discovered and criminal charges being brought and certainly a "public relations" nightmare for the family and JR's business (including parent company Lockheed)- as well as a damaged future for BR if he was involved. The OTHER way was the coward's way- and obviously the way they chose to react. Stage it to look like a kidnapping by writing an inane ransom note (and leave the body there), blaming it on either a disgruntled employee (JR told Det. Arndt as soon as he brought up her body is was an "inside job", or a small foreign faction, or an intruder or all three -then call your lawyers immediately and get the governor's office involved and refuse to talk to police....well- that's why we are here today.
    THIS time, we get it RIGHT!

    This post is my constitutionally-protected opinion. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

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  33. #1642
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    Good Read DeeDEE249

    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
    Possible, certainly. That is what is meant when we say her death may have been "unintentional"- which is different from accidental. Bashing her wasn't an accident. No one hits someone with enough force to crack open their skull accidentally. But it was not intended to be a fatal injury. Once it had happened, most forensic specialist agree that the head blow would have rendered her instantly unconscious, and possibly even comatose. She may have convulsed. (this would account for the vomit/mucous on her cheek). But she may have appeared dead to an untrained eye, especially if she did go into a coma or shock. If that happened, her body would get cold, as body temperature drops in a coma or shock, and her breathing might become so shallow as to seem to be absent.
    Once JB seemed to be dead or so irreversibly damaged that there was no turning back- there were only two ways forward- call 911 and tell the truth- which may result in the sexual abuse being discovered and criminal charges being brought and certainly a "public relations" nightmare for the family and JR's business (including parent company Lockheed)- as well as a damaged future for BR if he was involved. The OTHER way was the coward's way- and obviously the way they chose to react. Stage it to look like a kidnapping by writing an inane ransom note (and leave the body there), blaming it on either a disgruntled employee (JR told Det. Arndt as soon as he brought up her body is was an "inside job", or a small foreign faction, or an intruder or all three -then call your lawyers immediately and get the governor's office involved and refuse to talk to police....well- that's why we are here today.
    Quote from DeeDee249:
    There were only two ways forward- call 911 and tell the truth- which may result in the sexual abuse being discovered and criminal charges being brought and certainly a "public relations" nightmare for the family and JR's business (including parent company Lockheed)- as well as a damaged future for BR if he was involved. The OTHER way was the coward's way- and obviously the way they chose to react. Stage it to look like a kidnapping by writing an inane ransom note (and leave the body there), blaming it on either a disgruntled employee (JR told Det. Arndt as soon as he brought up her body is was an "inside job", or a small foreign faction, or an intruder or all three -then call your lawyers immediately and get the governor's office involved and refuse to talk to police....well- that's why we are here today. End Quote

    I think it went even higher up than that, but that is MOO. They made the phone call's as soon as the accident (in MOO) of cracking JB skull. How else can they keep Fleet White shut up for so long and BR as well?

    Parents of a child that is murdered want to find the killler/killer's not hide forever and a day and keep those that were best of friends mouths shut as well.

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  35. #1643
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flatlander View Post
    Quote from DeeDee249:
    [COLOR="DarkRed"]

    They made the phone call's as soon as the accident (in MOO) of cracking JB skull. How else can they keep Fleet White shut up for so long and BR as well?

    Just out of curiosity--what makes you think that?

  36. #1644
    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy View Post
    SapphireSteel,
    From memory the snow thing is not critical since the snow was not deposited uniformly. Or it was frozen and compact so would not display footprints. I do not think it was as big a deal as described.


    In general, because this is what most perpetrators do. Check google for cases, particularly in molestation cases where a male knows he will be at the top of the suspect list, so he erroneously thinks, no body in the house, I can blame an intruder!


    It just seems so obvious, the R's wanted an abduction not an intruder led dump-site, otherwise JonBenet would have been left on the roadside somewhere?



    .
    Do you think John was trying to get JonBenet in the SUV in the garage when he "went missing"? Maybe he was still hoping to go alone and dump her along the way to the bank for the "ransom money? Or could JonBenet of already been in the garage and John moved her in the wine cellar and that was why he made the beeline to the basement to find her? JonBenet had been moved several times by the time the ME got there and she was taken to the morgue and if she was kept on her back wouldn't the lividity stayed the same?

    It does make sense that Pasty wouldn't of wanted her placed outside for cosmetic reasons and maybe some compassion ie. her blanket found with her, the heart drawn on her hand. I wonder if there was a red marker with the pad ?

    I wake at night and run different scenarios in my mind. I think of the terrible scream and it suddenly stopping. I think of the "lights" seen moving in the house. I think of the missing Christmas tape and photos. I sometimes wonder if there was a stun gun and was it used to try and revive JonBenet? And that it went in a trash can outside the home?

    Trying to make sense out of nonsense.

    All opinions expressed by me on Websleuths are my very own thoughts, not yours, and are to stay on this website

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  38. #1645
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    Quote Originally Posted by ILikeToBendPages View Post
    Do you think John was trying to get JonBenet in the SUV in the garage when he "went missing"? Maybe he was still hoping to go alone and dump her along the way to the bank for the "ransom money? Or could JonBenet of already been in the garage and John moved her in the wine cellar and that was why he made the beeline to the basement to find her? JonBenet had been moved several times by the time the ME got there and she was taken to the morgue and if she was kept on her back wouldn't the lividity stayed the same?

    It does make sense that Pasty wouldn't of wanted her placed outside for cosmetic reasons and maybe some compassion ie. her blanket found with her, the heart drawn on her hand. I wonder if there was a red marker with the pad ?

    I wake at night and run different scenarios in my mind. I think of the terrible scream and it suddenly stopping. I think of the "lights" seen moving in the house. I think of the missing Christmas tape and photos. I sometimes wonder if there was a stun gun and was it used to try and revive JonBenet? And that it went in a trash can outside the home?

    Trying to make sense out of nonsense.
    ILikeToBendPages,
    Yes, John could have been upto anything while he was absent. He could have moved JonBenet, no problem, its an unaswered question. Fleet White might have the answer since he saw the inside of the wine-cellar three times that day, more than anyone else bar an R!

    I reckon Fleet White thinks JonBenet was not in the wine-cellar when he first looked. After JonBenet was discovered he went back to check on something, what I do not know. But I think he was checking the visibility, since he knew what was already lying in the wine-cellar, he was confirming whether he should have seen earlier what John Ramsey saw immediately!

    So its highly likely that John moved JonBenet.

    It does make sense that Pasty wouldn't of wanted her placed outside for cosmetic reasons and maybe some compassion ie. her blanket found with her, the heart drawn on her hand. I wonder if there was a red marker with the pad ?
    I think dumping JonBenet might ruin their plans. They were attempting to buy time, they wanted to fly out of Colorado, they thought once JonBenet is found and the interviews are over we can fly away. So they cooked up an abduction scenario.

    There was a red marker somewhere in the house. I think JonBenet would draw hearts on John's newspaper and desk writing pads?


    I wake at night and run different scenarios in my mind. I think of the terrible scream and it suddenly stopping. I think of the "lights" seen moving in the house. I think of the missing Christmas tape and photos. I sometimes wonder if there was a stun gun and was it used to try and revive JonBenet? And that it went in a trash can outside the home?
    Stun gun. Probably not, there was no need for it. The missing Christmas tape and photos are a big red flag, especially from a family as wealthy as the R's. There is the outside possibility that JAR was indeed at the house, and its the familial abuse that is the underlying factor in setting the conspiracy in concrete?

    The other items that might be noted in any Chrismas photos, video etc, are clothing, dolls, and other gifts, now absent, due to Pamela's clearup?

    There is also the photo albums dumped in the basement, why so, who needed to distance themselves from JonBenet? These photos generated a search of the R's holiday home for illegal pornography, and the results of the search were sealed!

    Trying to make sense out of nonsense.
    It only seems that way because most of it has been staged.



    .

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  40. #1646
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olivia&Eve View Post
    This brought back a very vivid memory of when my now 3 year old bit my husband while playing. His instant reflex reaction was to smack her..probably way too hard. He felt horrible, but stated it scared and surprised him, that was his first reaction. Is it completely unreasonable to wonder if her screams startled the abuser so much that the smack with the flashlight was almost like a reflex and not intended to be a fatal injury? Only a quick "knee jerk" reaction?
    I bet she never bit him again!

  41. #1647
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    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy View Post
    SapphireSteel,
    From memory the snow thing is not critical since the snow was not deposited uniformly. Or it was frozen and compact so would not display footprints. I do not think it was as big a deal as described.


    In general, because this is what most perpetrators do. Check google for cases, particularly in molestation cases where a male knows he will be at the top of the suspect list, so he erroneously thinks, no body in the house, I can blame an intruder!


    It just seems so obvious, the R's wanted an abduction not an intruder led dump-site, otherwise JonBenet would have been left on the roadside somewhere?



    .
    I've read up on the snow thing (which I should have done first, duh) and there was quite a lot of it, but it was patchy, also the paths to the house were completely clear...but the grassy areas were not. Perhaps there was enough around for it to be a factor for a panicked perpetrator trying to stage a scene...but you're right, at this point it does seem irrelevant.

  42. #1648
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    Quote Originally Posted by SapphireSteel View Post
    I've read up on the snow thing (which I should have done first, duh) and there was quite a lot of it, but it was patchy, also the paths to the house were completely clear...but the grassy areas were not. Perhaps there was enough around for it to be a factor for a panicked perpetrator trying to stage a scene...but you're right, at this point it does seem irrelevant.
    SapphireSteel,
    Not quite, you can always learn from stuff.

    Another way to look at this is this: If they really wanted to dump JonBenet outdoors all that was required was an incoming, e.g. intruder, and outgoing, e.g. intruder, set of footprints.

    So find a pair of shoes that can be used then allowed to vanish, but for all intents and purposes an intruder has come and left the R's home. Although much more difficult to achieve, changing the tires on the car and driving in and out would yield the same result.

    The problem for LEA is to distinguish the outgoing from the incoming tracks, and in the firestorm the R's would scream IDI!

    So given the preamble what might we learn, possibly the R's never intended to dump JonBenet outdoors, because thats not a kidnapping is it?


    .

  43. #1649
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olivia&Eve View Post
    Just out of curiosity--what makes you think that?
    For starter's the phone records were never recovered. Why would Fleet White go to such links to help solve the case when JR ran from it? Did Fleet's son stay the night w/BR or DS and Fleet had knowledge of this?

    Instead JR called the governer of Colorado and hence was lead to how to handle the situation, MOO.
    Shoot, the R's lawyers were on the case before the LE could even move. So let's go to the top:
    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1109560/posts
    Last edited by Flatlander; 06-23-2012 at 07:38 PM. Reason: wording

  44. #1650
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    Bike tracks in the snow 12/26/1996

    Quote Originally Posted by SapphireSteel View Post
    I've read up on the snow thing (which I should have done first, duh) and there was quite a lot of it, but it was patchy, also the paths to the house were completely clear...but the grassy areas were not. Perhaps there was enough around for it to be a factor for a panicked perpetrator trying to stage a scene...but you're right, at this point it does seem irrelevant.
    Posted by BlueCrab:
    LOU Smit: "You know, I've looked at a lot of pictures in regards to this particular case and I can't remember seeing any bikes. What happened to the bikes?"

    JOHN RAMSEY: "Well, they were in the garage, I guess. JonBenet rode her bike for a moment outside before we went to the White's; just round the patio. I'm sure that went back in the garage. Patsy's bike, I don't know, it could have gone in the garage. I don't remember."

    LOU SMIT: "Have you seen it since, Patsy's bike?"

    JOHN RAMSEY: "Yeah. We have it."

    LOU SMIT: "(inaudible) took it?"

    JOHN RAMSEY: "No. We gave, JonBenet's bike we gave away. Patsy's bike we haven't (inaudible)."

    I consider this a controversial part of the interviews because, in regard to the bike, Lou Smit seems to have named the person who took it, but the transcriber notes "inaudible" in place of the name. Was the transcript edited to shield a person's name? JMO

    There was a crime scene photo 101 but it is not available.
    Last edited by Flatlander; 06-23-2012 at 07:54 PM. Reason: addition of photo 101

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