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View Poll Results: PR/JR wrote the RN to explain their dead daughter in basement

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  • I agree

    89 80.91%
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    21 19.09%

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  1. #1
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    Lightbulb PR/JR wrote the RN to explain their dead daughter in basement

    The part of the RN reads

    "Any deviation of my instructions will result in the immediate execution of your daughter. You will also be denied her remains for proper burial. The two gentlemen watching over your daughter do not particularly like you so I advise you not to provoke them. Speaking to anyone about your situation such as police or F.B.I. will result in your daughter being beheaded."

    The RDI explanation for this is staging, PR or JR PR/JR wrote the RN to explain their dead daughter in basement, they "deviated" from the RN's "instructions" and hence their daughter died.

    Does this make sense?

    If the R's were going to stage the crime scene, and they were perverse enough to strike her, violate her vagina with a paintbrush, and bound and garrotte her, wouldn't it be simply to carry the dead body out of the house, and attempt to hide it somewhere else? Wouldn't this idea occur first?

    If they want to go with the "deviated the RN"s instructions so your daughter is dead" it would make some sense for the R's to think there was a delay from the time they read the RN, to the time JB's body was found, and the reason she was killed was deviated RN instructions. No garrotte, paintbrush, skull fracture staging need to be explained.

    If both PR and JR wrote the RN and wrote this part, how, in their mind, did they think they can fool anyone that the terms of the RN instruction were deviated if the RN and JB were found in the house, it would have been obvious to them and to everyone that JB was dead all this time? To any outside observer, JB was dead before the R's did anything, and would have been dead no matter what they did or who they contacted.

    So the RN doesn't explain why JB's body is dead and in the basement. In other words, it doesn't make sense that PR would write the RN threatening to have JB executed while JB's corpse is in the basement b/c their attempt to explain her death as a violation of the terms of the RN (speak to anyone about her) since it is transparent to everyone that JB was dead all along.

    How does PR writing the RN explain away the dead JB in her basement? Why, for violating the term of not contacting the authority. But she was dead all along. That's obvious to everyone. PR and JR would not need to explain JB' corpse in the basement if they took it to another location (then they could plausibly argue she was murdered b/c they contacted LE) If PR and JR could violate their dead child, they could certainly remove her from the premises. The RN note would only explain JB's death as a violation of the term of the RN "Any deviation of my instructions will result in the immediate execution of your daughter" if JB was found dead outside the house, hidden somewhere else.

    At the time PR wrote it and then decided to contact LE, they had no control over the ensuing investigation, including the possibility they would be asked to leave the house and the house sealed as a crime scene. NO RN would have been more predictable in the control over the subsequent turn of events than the RN.
    Last edited by voynich; 08-31-2009 at 12:51 AM.

  2. #2
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    I dunno what to vote,would have voted for "no idea"....
    I still would like to know who they called that morning,before dialing 911.And why the records were sealed.Another confusing issue,some say they were sealed,some that they just disappeared.Which is it?
    Would make things a bit clearer as far as I am concerned.
    Last edited by madeleine; 08-31-2009 at 02:48 PM.
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  3. #3
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    At the time PR wrote it and then decided to contact LE, they had no control over the ensuing investigation, including the possibility they would be asked to leave the house and the house sealed as a crime scene.

    But with the RN and a time to contact everyone should know the LE would tap the phone line waiting for the kidnapper to call..The R's wouldn't been asked to leave would be crazy for them to leave and a kidnapper was to call....And yes even the R's would and could know they would be homeward bound...
    Knowledge of time is precious.Wisdom of truth is more precious than time..Opinions I write are mine..

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by voynich View Post
    The part of the RN reads

    "Any deviation of my instructions will result in the immediate execution of your daughter. You will also be denied her remains for proper burial. The two gentlemen watching over your daughter do not particularly like you so I advise you not to provoke them. Speaking to anyone about your situation such as police or F.B.I. will result in your daughter being beheaded."

    The RDI explanation for this is staging, PR or JR PR/JR wrote the RN to explain their dead daughter in basement, they "deviated" from the RN's "instructions" and hence their daughter died.

    Does this make sense?
    Yes. That's why I voted "agree."

    If the R's were going to stage the crime scene, and they were perverse enough to strike her, violate her vagina with a paintbrush, and bound and garrotte her, wouldn't it be simply to carry the dead body out of the house, and attempt to hide it somewhere else? Wouldn't this idea occur first?
    Who says it DIDN'T? As I've said many times, it would have been MORE risky to try and move the body. Aside from possibly being spotted (and from what I understand, the Rs had a distinct car and a garage door that made horrendous noise), it would be a bit harder to explain any forensics at a "dump" site than in their house.

    Of course, this assumes that one of the Rs wasn't trying to set up the other. I STRONGLY recommend taking a look at my "No Honor Among Thieves" thread.

    If they want to go with the "deviated the RN"s instructions so your daughter is dead" it would make some sense for the R's to think there was a delay from the time they read the RN, to the time JB's body was found, and the reason she was killed was deviated RN instructions. No garrotte, paintbrush, skull fracture staging need to be explained.
    I think it's more a case of trying to cover as many bases as you can.

    If both PR and JR wrote the RN and wrote this part, how, in their mind, did they think they can fool anyone that the terms of the RN instruction were deviated if the RN and JB were found in the house, it would have been obvious to them and to everyone that JB was dead all this time? To any outside observer, JB was dead before the R's did anything, and would have been dead no matter what they did or who they contacted.

    So the RN doesn't explain why JB's body is dead and in the basement. In other words, it doesn't make sense that PR would write the RN threatening to have JB executed while JB's corpse is in the basement b/c their attempt to explain her death as a violation of the terms of the RN (speak to anyone about her) since it is transparent to everyone that JB was dead all along.
    Sure SOUNDS like the kind of mistake an amateur would make...

    How does PR writing the RN explain away the dead JB in her basement? Why, for violating the term of not contacting the authority. But she was dead all along. That's obvious to everyone.
    Ah, but it's not a question of fooling everyone else. It's a question of making it more TRAGIC, is my point. "Oh, isn't it awful? Not only did someone kill our baby right under our noses, but we may have been responsible because we didn't follow instructions!" (I hope like he** everyone's getting this!)

    PR and JR would not need to explain JB' corpse in the basement if they took it to another location (then they could plausibly argue she was murdered b/c they contacted LE) If PR and JR could violate their dead child, they could certainly remove her from the premises.
    Well, to start with, it helps to remember that the "violation" was very minimal and that not putting the body out in the elements is a trademark sign of parental involvement. Leaving that aside for a moment, sure they could have. But they would have risked being seen. This way, there were no witnesses.

    The RN note would only explain JB's death as a violation of the term of the RN "Any deviation of my instructions will result in the immediate execution of your daughter" if JB was found dead outside the house, hidden somewhere else.

    At the time PR wrote it and then decided to contact LE, they had no control over the ensuing investigation, including the possibility they would be asked to leave the house and the house sealed as a crime scene. NO RN would have been more predictable in the control over the subsequent turn of events than the RN.
    You make a good argument, but I think you're overthinking this. I should think you'd have more respect for the difference between knowledge and WISDOM.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperDave View Post
    Yes. That's why I voted "agree."



    Who says it DIDN'T? As I've said many times, it would have been MORE risky to try and move the body. Aside from possibly being spotted (and from what I understand, the Rs had a distinct car and a garage door that made horrendous noise), it would be a bit harder to explain any forensics at a "dump" site than in their house.

    Of course, this assumes that one of the Rs wasn't trying to set up the other. I STRONGLY recommend taking a look at my "No Honor Among Thieves" thread.



    I think it's more a case of trying to cover as many bases as you can.



    Sure SOUNDS like the kind of mistake an amateur would make...



    Ah, but it's not a question of fooling everyone else. It's a question of making it more TRAGIC, is my point. "Oh, isn't it awful? Not only did someone kill our baby right under our noses, but we may have been responsible because we didn't follow instructions!" (I hope like he** everyone's getting this!)



    Well, to start with, it helps to remember that the "violation" was very minimal and that not putting the body out in the elements is a trademark sign of parental involvement. Leaving that aside for a moment, sure they could have. But they would have risked being seen. This way, there were no witnesses.



    You make a good argument, but I think you're overthinking this. I should think you'd have more respect for the difference between knowledge and WISDOM.


    I've not seen any positive argument in favor of the claim that this was what was intended. How would PR and JR expect anyone to believe that the reason JB was dead in her basement is that she had called LE, in violation of the warnings of the RN, when it is clear to LE that JB was dead even before they were contacted?


    Has either JR or PR ever stated that the reason JB MUST be dead and killed was b/c they contacted LE?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by voynich View Post
    I've not seen any positive argument in favor of the claim that this was what was intended.
    Could you be a bit more specific?

    How would PR and JR expect anyone to believe that the reason JB was dead in her basement is that she had called LE, in violation of the warnings of the RN, when it is clear to LE that JB was dead even before they were contacted?
    Well, for one thing, I find it hard to imagine they were thinking that clearly at the time. But leaving that aside for a moment, maybe it was more a question of whether people were convinced that THEY believed it.

    Has either JR or PR ever stated that the reason JB MUST be dead and killed was b/c they contacted LE?
    Not directly. JR has said that he didn't feel he had any choice. But then, the Rs have learned to swim with the tide.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperDave View Post
    Could you be a bit more specific?



    Well, for one thing, I find it hard to imagine they were thinking that clearly at the time. But leaving that aside for a moment, maybe it was more a question of whether people were convinced that THEY believed it.



    Not directly. JR has said that he didn't feel he had any choice. But then, the Rs have learned to swim with the tide.

    So PR wrote the RN to explain the dead child in the basement yet they've never explained to LE, ST, Larry King, no one that that is the reason she's found dead.

    So what reasons do you offer that this was what she intended or this was the reason the RN HAD to be written?

    Master Dave, I'm disappointed. RDI spin team holds you in such high esteem. Surely you could do better.

    Why is your RDIST speculation any better than a corresponding IDI speculation that the RN was written BEFORE R's arrived, he perhaps killed JB unintentionally, then left the premises and left the body behind (perhaps for the reasons you ascribe to the R"s why they didn't dump the body)

    I see no reason to prefer one RDIST speculation over the other IDI

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by voynich View Post
    So PR wrote the RN to explain the dead child in the basement yet they've never explained to LE, ST, Larry King, no one that that is the reason she's found dead.

    So what reasons do you offer that this was what she intended or this was the reason the RN HAD to be written?
    Well, it's multi-layered. One, what she thought at that moment and what the may have thought later on aren't necessarily the same. (Maybe you haven't noticed, but there are an AWFUL lot of inconsistencies...) Two, and more importantly, you have to understand that in a case where staging takes place, you're not just staging the what and the how, but the who and why. Adding the elements of strangulation and sexual assault created the crime. Now, they needed to create a criminal to go with it. That's why it HAD to be written. There's also the consideration that writing the RN allowed the killer to "undo" the crime in their mind. By that, I mean that by creating a criminal, it allows the killer to say, "I didn't do it. This person did." It's sort of like self-hypnosis. As one of the cops said, "Patsy has totally rationalized this in her mind and can visualize an intruder." Giving a reason as to why JB was killed by this person is just icing on the cake, and can be changed later, if need be.

    Master Dave, I'm disappointed. RDI holds you in such high esteem. Surely you could do better.
    You better believe I can.

    Why is your RDI speculation any better than a corresponding IDI speculation that the RN was written BEFORE R's arrived, he perhaps killed JB unintentionally, then left the premises and left the body behind (perhaps for the reasons you ascribe to the R"s why they didn't dump the body)
    Why? Have you forgotten who you're talking to? Well, let's take it one step at a time:

    1) Why would he BOTHER writing one in the house? Why wouldn't he just bring one WITH him? You know, HOTYH keeps hammering me over how ridiculous it is for one of the Rs to handwrite a note. Trouble is, that applies to IDI as well, a lot MORE so. Here's what I mean: if the Rs killed JB unintentionally, then they were limited by time. Sure, they could have typed one out on the computer, but I doubt they had time to scrub the harddrive (unless they just happened to have a deGaussing loop handy). And that's if you DON'T consider the "No Honor Among Thieves" idea I had. (Check it out, please.) BUT, if it WERE an intruder, then it was clearly premeditated. He had plenty of time to make one up before he set out.

    2) As for the intruder killing JB unintentionally, I suppose that's possible. But there seems to be a kind of unspoken agreement among IDI that if it WAS an intruder, there's no way it was unintentional. There's a few reasons for that.

    3) The difference between the Rs not taking the body and the intruder not taking the body is the difference between motive and preparation, plus the other reasons I've given.

    I see no reason to prefer one RDI speculation over the other IDI
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  9. #9
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    Why would Patsy need to explain anything? The RN would speak for itself. They told us not to tell anyone- we did- they killed her.
    I have never seen where LE asked the Rs NOT why they called 911, but why they called over a housefull of friends, clergy, and "victim's advocates" that morning if the RN said they were being watched.
    I can see parents in a REAL kidnapping situation still calling police. But a bunch of friends, etc? No way. Not when the note was so explicit as to what would happen to JB if they did.
    Of course, we know they were able to invite all those people because they knew she was already dead. They knew they weren't being watched, and the best way to look like a victim is to have a group of "victim's advocates" hovering over you.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperDave View Post
    Well, it's multi-layered. One, what she thought at that moment and what the may have thought later on aren't necessarily the same. (Maybe you haven't noticed, but there are an AWFUL lot of inconsistencies...) Two, and more importantly, you have to understand that in a case where staging takes place, you're not just staging the what and the how, but the who and why. Adding the elements of strangulation and sexual assault created the crime. Now, they needed to create a criminal to go with it. That's why it HAD to be written. There's also the consideration that writing the RN allowed the killer to "undo" the crime in their mind. By that, I mean that by creating a criminal, it allows the killer to say, "I didn't do it. This person did." It's sort of like self-hypnosis. As one of the cops said, "Patsy has totally rationalized this in her mind and can visualize an intruder." Giving a reason as to why JB was killed by this person is just icing on the cake, and can be changed later, if need be.
    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
    Why would Patsy need to explain anything? The RN would speak for itself. They told us not to tell anyone- we did- they killed her.
    I have never seen where LE asked the Rs NOT why they called 911, but why they called over a housefull of friends, clergy, and "victim's advocates" that morning if the RN said they were being watched.
    I can see parents in a REAL kidnapping situation still calling police. But a bunch of friends, etc? No way. Not when the note was so explicit as to what would happen to JB if they did.
    Of course, we know they were able to invite all those people because they knew she was already dead. They knew they weren't being watched, and the best way to look like a victim is to have a group of "victim's advocates" hovering over you.
    PR explaining to LE this would be how we could provide evidence she wrote the RN. Did it occur to you that she didn't write the RN, and that an IDI wrote it, and the reason she contact those individuals is that is how she expresses her concern and love for JB, and sought social support?


    IF PR did NOT contact all those social support network (including priest) the RDIST could spin-doctor that her not calling these individuals is evidence she killed her daughter. Why didn't she call her friends and priest? B/c she knew JB was dead already.

    In other words, the fact that PR contacted social support is not evidence for the RDI claim that her intention for doing so is to explain why JB was dead in the basement - for breaching the warning of the RN. She could have done so if an IDI had written that RN (which Gerald McMermanin shows beyond all reasonable doubt to have done so)

    If they would contact BPD they have already breached the RN warning. Unless expressly told otherwise by the FBI or BPD or LE, it would seem very suspicious to them if PR did NOT call friends and clergy.
    Last edited by voynich; 08-31-2009 at 11:31 PM.


  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperDave View Post
    Why? Have you forgotten who you're talking to? Well, let's take it one step at a time:

    1) Why would he BOTHER writing one in the house? Why wouldn't he just bring one WITH him? You know, HOTYH keeps hammering me over how ridiculous it is for one of the Rs to handwrite a note. Trouble is, that applies to IDI as well, a lot MORE so. Here's what I mean: if the Rs killed JB unintentionally, then they were limited by time. Sure, they could have typed one out on the computer, but I doubt they had time to scrub the harddrive (unless they just happened to have a deGaussing loop handy). And that's if you DON'T consider the "No Honor Among Thieves" idea I had. (Check it out, please.) BUT, if it WERE an intruder, then it was clearly premeditated. He had plenty of time to make one up before he set out.

    2) As for the intruder killing JB unintentionally, I suppose that's possible. But there seems to be a kind of unspoken agreement among IDI that if it WAS an intruder, there's no way it was unintentional. There's a few reasons for that.

    3) The difference between the Rs not taking the body and the intruder not taking the body is the difference between motive and preparation, plus the other reasons I've given.



    How much time you got, buddy?

    I have provided in other posts cases where the kid was taken, RN left behind, and kid was dead or soon killed thereafter, and no attempt to collect ransom was made.

  12. #12
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    She could have called them at some later point. She didn't have to call them 10 minutes after finding a ransom note threatening to behead her daughter if she called anyone.
    To me, the apparent knowledge that there was no real threat to their "kidnapped" daughter (because she was already dead) superceded any worry about being criticized for not calling friends and clergy at that time.
    If it were me, I'd call NO ONE except the police (and in the case of a child kidnapped, the FBI.
    We all know what happened to the FBI that morning, right? They were sent away.
    If it were MY kid that was kidnapped, I'd be insisting the FBI stay on the case. Any innocent parent would do the same. But a guilty parent would not want the FBI involved at all. Nor would a DA who knew the parents might have something to do with it.
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  13. #13
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    You asked the question to explain why she was dead in the basement no,I disagree but to find her out of the house yes...I think they got scared by something or in the end the R's didn't have the heart to leave her in the elements...There are reason for everything..Just my own thoughts here...
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    Hi voynich.

    PRDI wise, it could be said that within the rn piece, PR attempted to create a specific psychological profile, that being one of an adolescent fantascist,
    that perhaps "proper burial" was more so a concern of the rn writer, and that the possibility of a botched kidnapping, allowed the Ramseys to recover JBR's body.

    Either way.

    JBR's body laid in wait for discovery, either in the Ramseys home or elsewhere, but for sure, too close for comfort.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by voynich View Post
    PR explaining to LE this would be how we could provide evidence she wrote the RN. Did it occur to you that she didn't write the RN, and that an IDI wrote it, and the reason she contact those individuals is that is how she expresses her concern and love for JB, and sought social support?
    Of course it occurred to me, at first. But after a while, things just started piling up. For instance, how those social contacts were used to run interference between them and the cops.

    IF PR did NOT contact all those social support network (including priest) the RDI could spin-doctor that her not calling these individuals is evidence she killed her daughter. Why didn't she call her friends and priest? B/c she knew JB was dead already.
    Actually, speaking for myself, it would be a sign to me that she was acting in good faith. Nobody could have gotten in between her and the police.

    She could have done so if an IDI had written that RN
    Sure, she could. But then, I don't remember the Van Dams hampering the crime scene investigation like that. Or a fair lot of other people, for that matter.

    (which Gerald McMermanin shows beyond all reasonable doubt to have done so)
    Not on your life.

    If they would contact BPD they have already breached the RN warning. Unless expressly told otherwise by the FBI or BPD or LE, it would seem very suspicious to them if PR did NOT call friends and clergy.
    How do you figure? If memory serves, quite a few cops and FBI agents felt that it was improper.

    I have provided in other posts cases where the kid was taken, RN left behind, and kid was dead or soon killed thereafter, and no attempt to collect ransom was made.
    And none of them resemble this case. All the ones you list were killed outside the home. If you can find a case where another little child was killed inside the home with a ransom letter left behind, you'll just about put me out of business. I ain't holdin' my breath.
    I'm as mad as HELL and I'm NOT gonna take it anymore!.

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