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View Poll Results: Do you accept forensic linguists as defined below as a valid investigation tool

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6. You may not vote on this poll
  • I'm RDI - I do accept forensic linguistics regarding RN

    3 50.00%
  • I'm RDI forensic linguistics which does not agree with RDI is not science

    1 16.67%
  • Im IDI - I do accept forensic linguistics regarding RN

    2 33.33%
  • Im IDI forensic linguistics which does not agree with RDI is not science

    0 0%

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  1. #1
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    Forensic linguistics as investigative tool on RN

    read this and then vote. While many topics are addressed in the science of linguistics, of particular relevance to this forum is forensic linguistics as applied to PR authorship of the RN, which I underlined.

    The first questions I am presented with on direct examination are always to describe and explain what I do. This requires a series of brief and clear responses defining the theory and the nested array of analytical tools used in cases of questioned authorship: language, linguistics, linguistic variation, forensic linguistics, style, stylistics, and forensic stylistics.
    Consequently, I have used these questions to define the aims and struc- ture of this book: to provide an introduction to language, linguistics, and linguistic variation for nonlinguists (e.g., attorneys) who need to understand what linguist-witnesses do; to introduce the discipline of forensic linguistics; and to situate forensic stylistics as a field of language study and forensic analysis within the discipline of forensic linguistics. Chapters 1 through 6 will approximate this sequence.
    Although the linguistic study of language is well established, linguistics is something new for many jurors, judges, attorneys, and other forensic specialists. In addition, many linguists must learn how to talk about what they do in nontechnical terms, something accomplished to some degree here, I hope.
    Forensic linguistics is not a new field, but over the past few years it has become more structured and better defined within the academic and forensic communities. Is it the accused killer’s voice on the 911 recording reporting the crime? What exactly does it mean to die by accident, e.g., is sudden infant death an accident? Is it a request for drugs if a kid asks an undercover police officer, “What’s chillin?” Does it make any sense to say that someone did not commit genocide, just acts of genocide (The New York Times, August 26,
    2001)? Who did, or did not, write that ransom note found in the JonBenét Ramsey home? If a detective asks a suspect, “… do you want to speak with us about why you were arrested?” is the suspect waiving his right not to speak by answering, “Yes, I would like to know why I was arrested”? Does McDonald’s own the Mc at the beginning of my last name (Liptak, 2001:10)?
    These examples illustrate a few of the questions for forensic linguistics: phonetics (911 call), semantics (meaning of accident), pragmatics (intended meanings of “What’s chillin’?” and genocide), stylistics (authorship of the ransom note), discourse analysis (suspect waiver of rights), and trademarks (McDonald’s Mc).

    An understanding of language, linguistics, and the field of forensic lin- guistics will enable the reader to develop a more informed understanding of recent advances in the theory and method of forensic stylistics for authorship identification. Style is a reflection of individual and group variation in written language. Linguistic stylistics is the scientific study of individual style-mark- ers as described for the idiolect of a single writer and of class style-markers identified for language and dialect groups. Forensic stylistics is the applica- tion of the science of linguistic stylistics to forensic contexts and purposes. “Advances” in forensic stylistics refers to the progressive development of
    a deeper understanding of why and how present approaches work, as well as changes being made in the application of style analysis to cases of questioned authorship.
    Such advances have several sources: recent casework, new federal requirements for scientific evidence in the U.S., reexamination of the theory of style and its application to the forensic context, and critical response to documented approaches such as those presented in Forensic Stylistics (McMe- namin, 1993). Advances in forensic stylistics are the matter of Chapters 7 to
    11. Chapters 12 to 15 reflect new work in the stylistics of languages other than English.
    McM

    And hence,
    Is there any RDI that is willing to accept Forensic linguistics as a science and as a valid and legitimate forensic investigative tool?
    Last edited by voynich; 09-08-2009 at 10:20 PM.

  2. #2
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    All right, I'll speak up first.

    1) I haven't voted (at least not yet) because I'm not too keen on the way the choices are phrased. Maybe I'm just oversensitive.

    2) To a layman like myself, the excerpt you post seems to go on and on without really saying anything.

    3) Perhaps most importantly, in my opinion the questions "is forensic linguistics a science" and "is forensic linguistics a good investigative tool" are separate issues. While I'm iffy (and that's being very generous) as to the scientific validity of forensic linguistics, and as such not willing to go to court with it, I imagine that it can have its uses, maybe even going so far as to go to a Grand Jury with it.

    WHICH brings me to:

    4) Speaking purely for myself, I'd like to clear something up. There seems (and it's possible I'm wrong here) to be this perception that I'm somehow upholding Foster's conclusion and that I'm some kind of mark who has been taken in by a hustler. That's not it at ALL. The issue is that it doesn't matter whether I was taken in; it matters that Alex Hunter was taken in. He was in Foster's corner 100%...until he got the one answer he didn't want!. That's MY issue.
    I'm as mad as HELL and I'm NOT gonna take it anymore!.

  3. #3
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    I'd also like to see another choice or 2.
    Maybe "I'm RDI and I feel linguistics are of little value in this case".
    Can also apply to IDI.
    THIS time, we get it RIGHT!

    This post is my constitutionally-protected opinion. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
    I'd also like to see another choice or 2.
    Maybe "I'm RDI and I feel linguistics are of little value in this case".
    Can also apply to IDI.
    Did you read "Gerald R McMenamin - Forensic Linguistics Advances In Forensic Stylistics" in its entirety and if so, what makes you so sure it is of little value?

    thanks

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperDave View Post
    All right, I'll speak up first.
    Brave you boy, I thought you'd learn your lesson by now.

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperDave View Post
    1) I haven't voted (at least not yet) because I'm not too keen on the way the choices are phrased. Maybe I'm just oversensitive.
    Quote Originally Posted by SuperDave View Post

    Vote for what sounds closest

    2) To a layman like myself, the excerpt you post seems to go on and on without really saying anything.

    An understanding of language, linguistics, and the field of forensic lin- guistics will enable the reader to develop a more informed understanding of recent advances in the theory and method of forensic stylistics for authorship identification.

    “Advances” in forensic stylistics refers to the progressive development of
    a deeper understanding of why and how present approaches work, as well as changes being made in the application of style analysis to cases of questioned authorship.

    Who did, or did not, write that ransom note found in the JonBenét Ramsey home?


    Quote Originally Posted by SuperDave View Post
    3) Perhaps most importantly, in my opinion the questions "is forensic linguistics a science" and "is forensic linguistics a good investigative tool" are separate issues. While I'm iffy (and that's being very generous) as to the scientific validity of forensic linguistics, and as such not willing to go to court with it, I imagine that it can have its uses, maybe even going so far as to go to a Grand Jury with it.
    Good scientifically based investigative tool.

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperDave View Post
    4) Speaking purely for myself, I'd like to clear something up. There seems (and it's possible I'm wrong here) to be this perception that I'm somehow upholding Foster's conclusion and that I'm some kind of mark who has been taken in by a hustler. That's not it at ALL. The issue is that it doesn't matter whether I was taken in; it matters that Alex Hunter was taken in. He was in Foster's corner 100%...until he got the one answer he didn't want!. That's MY issue.
    Makes no difference to me what Alex Hunter thinks. What matters is the science behind Forensic linguistics and its conclusion re: PR authorship of the RN

    If I recall correctly you saw McM on CourtTV? What'd you think? By 2001, he's testified in court under oath as an expert on authorship on over 270 some civil and criminal cases.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by voynich View Post
    Did you read "Gerald R McMenamin - Forensic Linguistics Advances In Forensic Stylistics" in its entirety and if so, what makes you so sure it is of little value?

    thanks
    I am not saying it has little value- I am saying in THIS case, it has little value to ME. I see enough similarities in Patsy's handwriting and her style of writing (right down to the periods between letters in an acronym :S.B.T.C.
    She was well known to do this.) to have no doubt that she wrote this note. I think we can argue linguistics for years (as has been done with this) and all it does is try to apply formulas to show that someone else could have written it. I look at the handwriting. I know who wrote it.
    THIS time, we get it RIGHT!

    This post is my constitutionally-protected opinion. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
    I am not saying it has little value- I am saying in THIS case, it has little value to ME. I see enough similarities in Patsy's handwriting and her style of writing (right down to the periods between letters in an acronym :S.B.T.C.
    She was well known to do this.) to have no doubt that she wrote this note. I think we can argue linguistics for years (as has been done with this) and all it does is try to apply formulas to show that someone else could have written it. I look at the handwriting. I know who wrote it.
    I understand that it has little value to you personally, to each their own I say, but for those interested in ascertaining the TRUTH of what happened that night, it certainly has much value.

    Perhaps 50% of the population if handed a blunt Sharpie could write out an RN that would have "similarities" to both PR and the RN.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by voynich View Post
    Brave you boy, I thought you'd learn your lesson by now.
    I AM a slow learner...


    An understanding of language, linguistics, and the field of forensic lin- guistics will enable the reader to develop a more informed understanding of recent advances in the theory and method of forensic stylistics for authorship identification.

    “Advances” in forensic stylistics refers to the progressive development of
    a deeper understanding of why and how present approaches work, as well as changes being made in the application of style analysis to cases of questioned authorship.

    Who did, or did not, write that ransom note found in the JonBenét Ramsey home?
    I guess that would be the thing to do.

    Good scientifically based investigative tool.
    Like I said: I wouldn't write it off completely.

    Makes no difference to me what Alex Hunter thinks. What matters is the science behind Forensic linguistics and its conclusion re: PR authorship of the RN
    I get you, voynich. But I'm not sure you get me. My point there was not linguistics itself. My point was that Hunter did not do his due diligence. He was ready to back Foster to the hilt, as long as he named someone OTHER than PR. When he came back with the "wrong" answer, Hunter didn't just drop him; he actively tried to ruin him as well.

    So, wouldn't you say that Hunter was, at best, ignorant of the science behind forensic linguistics? And if so, what does that tell you?

    If I recall correctly you saw McM on CourtTV? What'd you think? By 2001, he's testified in court under oath as an expert on authorship on over 270 some civil and criminal cases.
    You recall superbly. This would have been around summer 2002 that I saw him on CourtTV. The program had nothing to do with this case, btw. As for what I thought, I think an explanation is in order. When I tuned in, the only thing I knew about linguistics was from this case. That is to say, I thought that linguistics was what Foster did: getting into someone's head to understand their writing style, the use of certain words, phrases, etc. The narrator explained that linguistics is based on the idea that people write the way they speak, and that the linguistic analyst will work from that premise...in other words, psycholinguistics, just like Foster does/did. Not only did McM NOT disagree with that, the example he used was of a dead girl who had left a "suicide" note which the police did not believe was written by the dead girl at all. Problem was, her handwriting matched the note exactly. McM was called in. He analyzed the note and found that the mother had dictated the note and the girl had written the dictation down under duress. The way the program was presented, it seemed like McM was using psycholinguistics. Since I didn't know anything else about the man, my first thought was "wow, why don't they bring THIS guy in to analyze the note? They kind of threw the baby out with the bathwater when they dumped Foster."

    But since then, I've found that McM and guys like him regard psycholinguistics as little more than tarot card reading (or at least that Foster had no idea what he was doing). Pardon my saying so, but it seems that we have a failure to communicate! McM doesn't seem to know WHAT he's saying at a given time.
    I'm as mad as HELL and I'm NOT gonna take it anymore!.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperDave View Post
    I get you, voynich. But I'm not sure you get me. My point there was not linguistics itself. My point was that Hunter did not do his due diligence. He was ready to back Foster to the hilt, as long as he named someone OTHER than PR. When he came back with the "wrong" answer, Hunter didn't just drop him; he actively tried to ruin him as well.

    So, wouldn't you say that Hunter was, at best, ignorant of the science behind forensic linguistics? And if so, what does that tell you?

    .
    The RDIs are alerted to our presence. He is as clumsy as he is stupid. You have failed me for the last time, Hunter. You are in command now, Admiral Dave.
    Last edited by voynich; 09-09-2009 at 03:03 PM.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by voynich View Post
    The RDIs are alerted to our presence. He is as clumsy as he is stupid.
    You SAID it!

    You have failed me for the last time, Hunter. You are in command now, Admiral Dave.
    Don't I WISH!
    I'm as mad as HELL and I'm NOT gonna take it anymore!.


  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by voynich View Post
    Perhaps 50% of the population if handed a blunt Sharpie could write out an RN that would have "similarities" to both PR and the RN.
    If that were true, wouldn't half the people tested have shown such similarities? And what's with this quotation marks business?
    I'm as mad as HELL and I'm NOT gonna take it anymore!.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperDave View Post
    Don't I WISH!
    Seriously? Do you know what the last words you hear are?

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by voynich View Post
    Seriously? Do you know what the last words you hear are?
    "Are you dead yet?"
    THIS time, we get it RIGHT!

    This post is my constitutionally-protected opinion. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  14. #14
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    okay dumb blonde here what is IDI and RDI????
    Kyron, HALEIGH, ADJI & Gabriel NEEDS PRAYERS NOW TO FIND THEM!. Zahra & Jonathan in heaven
    Justice for Hailey!!!!
    No Justice for Caylee Marie..........

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by passionflower View Post
    okay dumb blonde here what is IDI and RDI????
    Blondness not make one dumb.

    RDI - Ramsey Did It. (Variations are PDI - Patsy Did It, BR - Burke Did It
    JR - John Did it)

    IDI - Intruder Did It
    THIS time, we get it RIGHT!

    This post is my constitutionally-protected opinion. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

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