View Poll Results: Who hurt this case the most?

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  • M.Lacy

    15 13.04%
  • The Ramsey's&their team

    47 40.87%
  • LE,FBI

    47 40.87%
  • the media

    7 6.09%
  • everybody involved

    27 23.48%
  • experts and wanna be experts

    8 6.96%
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Thread: Who hurt this case the most?

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
    I never said he did not see it. I assumed no such thing. I said we do not know if he did or did not see the doll or nightie because he has never said publicly what he saw or observed in the wineceller.
    DeeDee249
    We don't know for a fact that FW missed the Barbie nightie, doll, etc.
    Precisely because of his silence he obviously knows something we do not. Regardless of whether it related to any particular object.


    I take the view something had changed in the wine-cellar between his first visit and his second visit, prompting him to make a third visit!


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  3. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by FairM View Post
    You say FW reported it "free of JPR body" - did he actually say he looked in there and she wasnt in there ? or as I understand it, looked in there but didnt see her as he didnt go into the room? He may well have seen other objects on the first look but didnt register them as he was looking for a girl ,

    You might well be looking in there for a live girl if you thought she might be hiding in there, unlikely I know because there was no light in there , or you might be hoping she was still alive if left in there tied up .

    When you say moved her into there , when did John get the chance and where would he possibly have been able to move her from with all those people in the house??
    He didnt know he would have a chance to "move her" did he? why put those objects in with her? if he'd moved her? it makes no sense, also of course he had no way of knowing he would be the one to find her,

    I dont think he does have any other important testomny we dont know about , it would have been leaked by now imo
    FairM,
    Some of my questions are intended to be rhetorical.

    When you say moved her into there , when did John get the chance and where would he possibly have been able to move her from with all those people in the house??
    On another thread so said you had done all the research and read all the books? Duh!

    JR went missing for about an hour that morning. His movements are unaccounted for.


    He didnt know he would have a chance to "move her" did he? why put those objects in with her? if he'd moved her? it makes no sense, also of course he had no way of knowing he would be the one to find her,
    You seem to be making stuff up. If John moves JonBenet into the wine-cellar, of course he knows where to find her, as he did!

    And the objects, well maybe thats what Fleet White knows were not present when he looked in there earlier in the day, never mind JonBenet wrapped in a white blanket.


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  5. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by FairM View Post
    You say FW reported it "free of JPR body" - did he actually say he looked in there and she wasnt in there ? or as I understand it, looked in there but didnt see her as he didnt go into the room? He may well have seen other objects on the first look but didnt register them as he was looking for a girl ,

    You might well be looking in there for a live girl if you thought she might be hiding in there, unlikely I know because there was no light in there , or you might be hoping she was still alive if left in there tied up .

    When you say moved her into there , when did John get the chance and where would he possibly have been able to move her from with all those people in the house??
    He didnt know he would have a chance to "move her" did he? why put those objects in with her? if he'd moved her? it makes no sense, also of course he had no way of knowing he would be the one to find her,

    I dont think he does have any other important testomny we dont know about , it would have been leaked by now imo
    I do not believe FW actually walked into the wineceller early that morning (when he was alone). I believe he said that he LOOKED into the dark room, not being able to find the light switch to the WC (which was in an odd place outside the room itself). The way I have seen it, he said he didn't see her in there. This is different than saying that she was not in there. In order to say that, without a doubt, she was not in there, I think you'd have to have actually walked around in there and looked, and/or turned the light on and looked, neither of these was done by FW.
    LE did tests at a later time to see whether the light from the area outside the WC enough to be able to see into the dark WC. I believe the conclusion was that there was enough light shining in from the doorway to be able to see JB's body where it was found.
    There is still the possibility that she was further inside the room, and when JR disappeared during the 2 hours he was unaccounted for, he may have pulled her closer to the doorway so she would be easily seen. At that point, JR did not know that FW had been down there earlier and looked in the WC without seeing her. He only knew at that time that Officer French had failed to open the door and find her. After she was found, it was FW who admitted that he had looked into the WC earlier that morning and did not see her. He was surprised that JR had been able to see her BEFORE JR turned on the light. When FW made that statement (which I believe he made to LE at the R home that day) JR said that it was the first time he was aware that FW had been to the basement before accompanying him at Det. Arndt's suggestion to "have another look around".
    Time was running out if she was going to be found in any condition to be seen by her family at her funeral.
    As far as where she may have been moved FROM (if at all)- remember that both rigor mortis and livor mortis begin within 15-20 minutes of death, with rigor taking longer (about 12 hours) to fully form. Had she been somewhere else, she'd have had to be in the exact same position as she was found. Had she been stuffed into the suitcase (as some have suggested) or in a fridge, etc.. there might have been two livor patterns and the body would have been "set" by rigor into a different position than she was found.
    Personally, I believe she was placed in the WC immediately after death. If she was moved at all, she was moved within the WC itself, perhaps closer to the door. BOTH her rigor and livor patterns suggest she was placed on her back, legs flat out, arms possibly across her abdomen, NOT over he head as has been said). The process of rigor will pull the arms into the "boxer's position" - up in front of the body, bent at the elbow. This happens as the muscles ratchet tighter and tighter as lactic acid builds up in the muscles. Rigor allows the muscles only to contract, not relax, so the arms can be pulled up into that position as rigor progresses.
    In the crime photo showing JB on the living room rug, you can easily see her arms pulled up into that position- her hands are covered with the brown paper bags that were put on in standard procedure for transport to the morgue.

    We also don't know when or how the boxed doll or the nightie was put in there. The nightie may have gotten there any of several ways: 1- accidentally attached to the white blanket by static cling as it was pulled from the basement dryer, 2-is she had been wearing it while alive and it got bloodstained in the assault, then it was removed and she was redressed in the longjohns and white shirt (I do not believe this happened) or 3- it was placed there with an already-dead JB because it was her favorite. Doesn't explain the bloodstains, though.
    The boxed doll was a 1996 Holiday Barbie. Maybe it was JB's gift that day, or maybe it had been bought for another child (Jenny- along with the Bloomies panties originally bought for her as well). To me, this makes sense, because it may have been wrapped up with the panties and when that present was unwrapped to find the panties, the doll was just left there along with the rest of the unwrapped present.
    So the circumstances of exactly how and why the doll and pink nightie came to be in the room with JB are by no means clear.
    We simply do not know for certain how and why they were there. We do know that when shown the crime scene photo of the pink nightie on the white blanet by LE, JR made the comment "that wasn't supposed to be there". Odd comment, yes? NONE of it was "supposed to be there"- especially a dead child in the room.
    Last edited by DeeDee249; 11-13-2011 at 07:09 PM.
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  7. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
    I do not believe FW actually walked into the wineceller early that morning (when he was alone). I believe he said that he LOOKED into the dark room, not being able to find the light switch to the WC (which was in an odd place outside the room itself). The way I have seen it, he said he didn't see her in there. This is different than saying that she was not in there. In order to say that, without a doubt, she was not in there, I think you'd have to have actually walked around in there and looked, and/or turned the light on and looked, neither of these was done by FW.
    LE did tests at a later time to see wether the light from the area outside the WC enough to be able to see into the dark WC. I believe the conclusion was that there was enough light shining in from the doorway to be able to see JB's body where it was found.
    There is still the possibility that she was further inside the room, and when JR disappeared during the 2 hours he was unaccounted for, he may have pulled her closer to the doorway so she would be easily seen. At that point, JR did not know that FW had been down there earlier and looked in the WC without seeing her. He only knew at that time that Officer French had failed to open the door and find her. After she was found, it was FW who admitted that he had looked into the WC earlier that morning and did not see her. He was surprised that JR had been able to see her BEFORE JR turned on the light. When FW made that statement (which I believe he made to LE at the R home that day) JR said that it was the first time he was aware that FW had been to the basement before accompanying him at Det. Arndt's suggestion to "have another look around".
    Time was running out if she was going to be found in any condition to be seen by her family at her funeral.
    As far as where she may have been moved FROM (if at all)- remember that both rigor mortis and livor mortis begin within 15-20 minutes of death, with rigor taking longer (about 12 hours) to fully form. Had she been somewhere else, she'd have had to be in the exact same position as she was found. Had she been stuffed into the suitcase (as some have suggested) or in a fridge, etc.. there might have been two livor patterns and the body would have been "set" by rigor into a different position than she was found.
    Personally, I believe she was placed in the WC immediately after death. If she was moved at all, she was moved within the WC itself, perhaps closer to the door. BOTH her rigor and livor patterns suggest she was placed on her back, legs flat out, arms possibly across her abdomen, NOT over he head as has been said). The process of rigor will pull the arms into the "boxer's position" - up in front of the body, bent at the elbow. This happens as the muscles ratchet tighter and tighter as lactic acid builds up in the muscles. Rigor allows the muscles only to contract, not relax, so the arms can be pulled up into that position as rigor progresses.
    In the crime photo showing JB on the living room rug, you can easily see her arms pulled up into that position- her hands are covered with the brown paper bags that were put on in standard procedure for transport to the morgue.
    DeeDee249,
    JR said that it was the first time he was aware that FW had been to the basement before accompanying him at Det. Arndt's suggestion to "have another look around".
    Which reinforces the possibility that JR moved JonBenet into the wine-cellar, since he had already made assumptions about what Fleet White knew prior to finding JonBenet?

    Otherwise why is Fleet White maintaining his silence, if there is nothing of substance to talk about?


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  8. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy View Post
    DeeDee249,

    Which reinforces the possibility that JR moved JonBenet into the wine-cellar, since he had already made assumptions about what Fleet White knew prior to finding JonBenet?

    Otherwise why is Fleet White maintaining his silence, if there is nothing of substance to talk about?


    .
    I feel IF JB was moved at all, she was moved WITHIN the wineceller. The room is kind of L-shaped. If you stood at the doorway, you'd have to step in and look to the left to see all the way into the room. JB could have been deeper inside, and JR may have moved her closer to the doorway.
    FW may be maintaining his silence because he feels threatened with having the finger pointed at HIMSELF again. With the the unscrupulous defense lawyers, they'd find some way to pin this on him, even of they couldn't make it stick. His life would be ruined even more than it was.
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  10. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
    I feel IF JB was moved at all, she was moved WITHIN the wineceller. The room is kind of L-shaped. If you stood at the doorway, you'd have to step in and look to the left to see all the way into the room. JB could have been deeper inside, and JR may have moved her closer to the doorway.
    FW may be maintaining his silence because he feels threatened with having the finger pointed at HIMSELF again. With the the unscrupulous defense lawyers, they'd find some way to pin this on him, even of they couldn't make it stick. His life would be ruined even more than it was.
    DeeDee249,
    Your theory is more likely than mine. But with the passage of time I doubt Fleet White feels threatened by JR.

    I wish I could speak with Fleet White and just ask him what did you see?

    Currently his silence is either for reputational or evidential reasons?


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  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy View Post
    DeeDee249,
    Your theory is more likely than mine. But with the passage of time I doubt Fleet White feels threatened by JR.

    I wish I could speak with Fleet White and just ask him what did you see?

    Currently his silence is either for reputational or evidential reasons?


    .
    I am sure we'd all like to speak with FW. Possibly, like Coroner Mayer, he is keeping silent because he is waiting to be put on the witness stand.
    But I think there is a more practical reason behind his silence- the threat of a lawsuit.
    Last edited by DeeDee249; 11-13-2011 at 08:36 PM.
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  14. #58
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    According to ST's book FW went down to the basement between 6.30 (when he arrived) and 6.45.
    Now this is something I would like to ask him.why?

  15. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy View Post

    I wish I could speak with Fleet White and just ask him what did you see?




    .
    IIRC according to the bonita papers,he told LE a different version than JR re how JB's position down in the basement (when they found her) and thats when LE started to have suspicions re JR's statement

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    Quote Originally Posted by madeleine View Post
    According to ST's book FW went down to the basement between 6.30 (when he arrived) and 6.45.
    Now this is something I would like to ask him.why?
    Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't FW's daughter once "missing" and he found her hiding in the basement? That's why I thought he checked out the R's basement first.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Squishified View Post
    Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't FW's daughter once "missing" and he found her hiding in the basement? That's why I thought he checked out the R's basement first.

    yeah but he already knew there is a RN so JB definitely wasn't playing games and hiding. so many people went down there yet nobody found her.irony or just mistakes?or was JB's body placed somewhere else and then moved?dunno.

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    Quote Originally Posted by madeleine View Post
    yeah but he already knew there is a RN so JB definitely wasn't playing games and hiding. so many people went down there yet nobody found her.irony or just mistakes?or was JB's body placed somewhere else and then moved?dunno.
    Even with a ransom note, if I were FW, I would start searching the house for JBR anyway. I think he felt like he had to do SOMETHING to help his friends. Also, FW was awakened early that morning and was probably not thinking as logically as he normally would. He may have also felt that the RN was some sort of trick being played by BR and JBR.
    As for whether JB was moved to the wine cellar--that's the million dollar question. Wish I knew....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Squishified View Post
    Even with a ransom note, if I were FW, I would start searching the house for JBR anyway. I think he felt like he had to do SOMETHING to help his friends. Also, FW was awakened early that morning and was probably not thinking as logically as he normally would. He may have also felt that the RN was some sort of trick being played by BR and JBR.
    As for whether JB was moved to the wine cellar--that's the million dollar question. Wish I knew....
    I can't imagine anyone thinking that note was written by a 6 year old and 9 year old. The language alone just doesn't lend itself to grade school linguistics.
    But yes, I am sure at that time he felt he had to do something, and searching the house would be something that anyone in his position might do.
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  21. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
    I can't imagine anyone thinking that note was written by a 6 year old and 9 year old. The language alone just doesn't lend itself to grade school linguistics.
    But yes, I am sure at that time he felt he had to do something, and searching the house would be something that anyone in his position might do.
    Oh, I agree that the note was too "adult-like" to be written by a 9 and 6 yr. old.
    I'm just putting myself in FW's shoes that morning. I imagine he would feel panicked and confused. He was probably hoping against hope that the note was a hoax or a cruel joke. At least that's the way I would feel.

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  23. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by madeleine View Post
    IIRC according to the bonita papers,he told LE a different version than JR re how JB's position down in the basement (when they found her) and thats when LE started to have suspicions re JR's statement
    madeleine,
    Thanks for the info. Yet Fleet White had his suspicions almost immediately, since he went back down to the wine-cellar.

    He must have seen the pink barbie nightgown the barbie doll and the blanket lying on the floor. I'll bet he thought: How did I miss all that earlier today?

    What else is there for Fleet White to question. He cannot know anything about the staging. John Ramsey is yet to make his statement, JonBenet's body is now upstairs, so all that is left is much of what we know about? The only other possibility is that there is redacted evidence, something else was in the wine-cellar and Fleet White has been told to keep quiet?


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    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy View Post
    madeleine,
    Thanks for the info. Yet Fleet White had his suspicions almost immediately, since he went back down to the wine-cellar.

    He must have seen the pink barbie nightgown the barbie doll and the blanket lying on the floor. I'll bet he thought: How did I miss all that earlier today?

    What else is there for Fleet White to question. He cannot know anything about the staging. John Ramsey is yet to make his statement, JonBenet's body is now upstairs, so all that is left is much of what we know about? The only other possibility is that there is redacted evidence, something else was in the wine-cellar and Fleet White has been told to keep quiet?


    .
    Is the information on exactly what FW told LE available? I'd like to know how his version differed from JR's.
    Under the stress of the moment, it isn't hard to imagine FW (or anyone) looking into the room for JB and not noticing all that was there. If JB wasn't there, the white blanket/pink nightie wasn't there, and as I said, the Barbie doll was a few feet away. That room was shaped like an "L". Looking in from the doorway, you'd have to step INTO the room to the left to be in the spot where the body was later found. I do not believe FW stepped into the room.
    There may very well be redacted evidence, and I doubt FW would keep quiet just because he was told to. There had to be a threat of a lawsuit or some threat that they might push to throw the blame on him, as JR and Patsy tried to do early on.
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  25. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
    Is the information on exactly what FW told LE available? I'd like to know how his version differed from JR's.
    Under the stress of the moment, it isn't hard to imagine FW (or anyone) looking into the room for JB and not noticing all that was there. If JB wasn't there, the white blanket/pink nightie wasn't there, and as I said, the Barbie doll was a few feet away. That room was shaped like an "L". Looking in from the doorway, you'd have to step INTO the room to the left to be in the spot where the body was later found. I do not believe FW stepped into the room.
    There may very well be redacted evidence, and I doubt FW would keep quiet just because he was told to. There had to be a threat of a lawsuit or some threat that they might push to throw the blame on him, as JR and Patsy tried to do early on.
    DeeDee249,
    The only factor that causes me to doubt Fleet White's version of events are the opened gifts.

    Without these I would have published my theory in the Member's Theories thread a long time ago.

    In this case both IDI and RDI minimize forensic evidence to suit the prevailing theory, yet evidence is evidence it does not fall off trees whenever a homicide occurs.

    I do not believe FW stepped into the room.
    Maybe not, but did he need to? The point in question is would all the debri arising from JonBenet's death, e.g. blanket, nightgown, Christmas gifts, and dolls, strewn on the floor, be visible?

    I have moved away from considering the wine-cellar as a carefully staged crime-scene to that of a disorganized one. If JonBenet was intended to be left in the wine-cellar then I think this was very much a last minute decision.

    Although speculative it is not impossible that JonBenet was hidden elsewhere and that John Ramsey relocated her body and artifacts into the wine-cellar later that morning, after all, he did lead FW directly to her body, but FW had already looked in there and seen nothing?

    On three occassions that day, Fleet White was able to observe the contents of the wine-cellar, no other witness has his pedigree. Its alike a Columbo thriller, the dramatic irony is dripping from the storyline, yet his testimony is diminished.

    I doubt FW would keep quiet just because he was told to.
    Litigation would not bother Fleet White he is a wealthy man, in court the fact John Ramsey entrusted his son to him, would play against any Team Ramsey allegations.

    What we do not know is why FW returned to the wine-cellar despite being told not to. I reckon he could not believe what he had just seen. Possibly for reasons you outline above. Then again he may have been certain about what he saw earlier that morning. Maybe he saw the opened Christmas gifts, but no JonBenet?

    I am afraid with dolls, blood-stained barbie nightgown, and opened Christmas gifts lying about, Fleet White should have observed something?


    .

  26. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy View Post

    What we do not know is why FW returned to the wine-cellar despite being told not to.

    .
    But IIRC it was Linda Arndt who sent him back to guard(I still consider this has been a really stupid move!) the wine-cellar?Guard it from WHOM?weren't at that point ALL people suspects?she should have kept all people together UPSTAIRS until back-up arrived.IMO no matter how valuable FW's testimony is everything was screwed up from the start by LA's decision to send him back down there.MAYBE all his intentions were good(even if I don't like him touching the tape,removing glass,moving the suitcase,etc at all) but he lost credibility because of her decision IMO.

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    Well, I've pretty much just started to read ST's book, and even though I'm shocked at how stupid and sloppy the local cops were, I'm far more disgusted with the DA's office.

    Actually, I'm horrified.

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    Quote Originally Posted by madeleine View Post
    But IIRC it was Linda Arndt who sent him back to guard(I still consider this has been a really stupid move!) the wine-cellar?Guard it from WHOM?weren't at that point ALL people suspects?she should have kept all people together UPSTAIRS until back-up arrived.IMO no matter how valuable FW's testimony is everything was screwed up from the start by LA's decision to send him back down there.MAYBE all his intentions were good(even if I don't like him touching the tape,removing glass,moving the suitcase,etc at all) but he lost credibility because of her decision IMO.
    madeleine,
    But IIRC it was Linda Arndt who sent him back to guard
    Your recollection does not match the account told in Steve Thomas' book. Fleet White more or less returned immediately to the wine-cellar, such is the import I regard his testimony.

    Also Fleet and Priscilla White were interviewed the following day by the prescient Team Ramsey Private Investigators and Attorneys, hows that for organization, the DA was still on the phone to Santa!

    The crime-scene was fabricated, the evidence may have been fabricated and the Ramsey response may have been fabricated. John Ramsey is reported, accurately, to have been missing for about 1 hour minimum, maybe more, when next seen he was agitated and nervous. I reckon John Ramsey may have relocated JonBenet.

    Fleet White is the best witness this case has since he observed the alleged crime-scene on three occassions, critically early in the morning, to diminish his testimony is to indulge in theory preference.



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  31. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alix View Post
    Well, I've pretty much just started to read ST's book, and even though I'm shocked at how stupid and sloppy the local cops were, I'm far more disgusted with the DA's office.

    Actually, I'm horrified.
    Alix,
    be prepared for apopolexy, well hopefully not. I reckon the catalog of mistakes are deliberate. Why was Detective Arndt denied direct communication with BPD, answers on a postcard to SuperDave who will tell us the answers in his upcoming blockbuster JonBenet book.

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  33. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy View Post
    Alix,
    be prepared for apopolexy, well hopefully not. I reckon the catalog of mistakes are deliberate. Why was Detective Arndt denied direct communication with BPD, answers on a postcard to SuperDave who will tell us the answers in his upcoming blockbuster JonBenet book.
    I think you give me too much credit, UKGuy.
    All posts made by me are MY exclusive property, and are NOT to be used or reproduced without my permission. DAVE SMASH THIEVES!

  34. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy View Post
    FairM,
    Some of my questions are intended to be rhetorical.


    On another thread so said you had done all the research and read all the books? Duh!

    JR went missing for about an hour that morning. His movements are unaccounted for.



    You seem to be making stuff up. If John moves JonBenet into the wine-cellar, of course he knows where to find her, as he did!

    And the objects, well maybe thats what Fleet White knows were not present when he looked in there earlier in the day, never mind JonBenet wrapped in a white blanket.


    .
    why are you accusing me of making stuff up? you have misunderstood my point , the point is John didnt know he would be the one to find her, if the police had done their job properly they would have found her not him and he wouldnt have had the missing hour either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy View Post
    madeleine,

    Your recollection does not match the account told in Steve Thomas' book.


    .
    ST's book,pg 30

    Arndt ordered Ramsey to put the body down on the floor near the front door and told Fleet White to guard the basement door.

    Yep,maybe she should have told him not to go inside and touch anything but does anyone have to mention this to you if you're dealing with a murder scene,he should have known better.

    Fleet White is the best witness this case has since he observed the alleged crime-scene on three occassions, critically early in the morning, to diminish his testimony is to indulge in theory preference.
    maybe he is the best witness,but imagine what a Ramsey defence lawyer would do to him on the stand.YOU moved the suitcase,YOU moved the glass,YOU went there right after you arrived,YOU touched the tape,why would we believe YOU and not my client re how JB was positioned,etc?

    a defence lawyer would argue re this exactly like he would argue re the BPD,both LE and FW messed up with the crime scene therefor in their opinion nothing found there has any value because it doesn't represent the truth.

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  37. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by madeleine View Post
    ST's book,pg 30

    Arndt ordered Ramsey to put the body down on the floor near the front door and told Fleet White to guard the basement door.

    Yep,maybe she should have told him not to go inside and touch anything but does anyone have to mention this to you if you're dealing with a murder scene,he should have known better.



    maybe he is the best witness,but imagine what a Ramsey defence lawyer would do to him on the stand.YOU moved the suitcase,YOU moved the glass,YOU went there right after you arrived,YOU touched the tape,why would we believe YOU and not my client re how JB was positioned,etc?

    a defence lawyer would argue re this exactly like he would argue re the BPD,both LE and FW messed up with the crime scene therefor in their opinion nothing found there has any value because it doesn't represent the truth.
    madeleine,
    Arndt ordered Ramsey to put the body down on the floor near the front door and told Fleet White to guard the basement door.

    It does say that, but did you read the next sentence?

    Instead, White ran back down to the cellar room
    Arndt told him to guard one particular door, but Fleet White headed straight for the wine-cellar, he knew something was wrong, so he went to check.

    Sure he would be given a bad time on the stand, but his forensic traces can be eliminated, its not as if he was walking all over blood spatters or actually removing evidence.

    His testimony will be important since no other person looked into the wine-cellar on three occassions that day.


    .

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