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Thread: Autopsy Results

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThoughtFox View Post
    Hmm, I truly doubt she was tall enough or strong enough to do that. She was very small in build, and he looks stocky and strong. But yes, she could have scratched him under his shirt if they struggled.

    I think the reason we don't see any cuts on him is simple - the wounds had healed by the time he was arrested.
    What I cannot understand is why scratches on his stomach,upper arms and back...not on his face, I almost wonder if he was waiting for her with his shirt off and a mask on. Did they say it was his shirt in the ceiling> ? or just clothes? I know that sounds ridiculous but, I think instinct is to scratch at the eyes or face...or even his forearms.

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  3. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by static View Post
    What I cannot understand is why scratches on his stomach,upper arms and back...not on his face, I almost wonder if he was waiting for her with his shirt off and a mask on. Did they say it was his shirt in the ceiling> ? or just clothes? I know that sounds ridiculous but, I think instinct is to scratch at the eyes or face...or even his forearms.
    He's much taller, meaning his arms are considerably longer - so even if he just had her at arm's length, she couldn't have reached his face. However, my guess is that either he had her in a choke hold from the back, or had her down on the floor perhaps straddling her (not reading anything sexual into that, just saying it would have been a natural position to apply pressure to her neck). In either case, again, she probably couldn't have reached his face - and if he was wearing long sleeves or long gloves, they might have protected his arms. If his shirt wasn't tucked in, his chest/stomach might have been the only place she could sink her nails into him.

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  5. #103
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    If he raged and killed her, I don't see a choke hold being the method of violence. Two people face to face who are arguing, the most likely thing that would have happened would have been a punch to the face. Unless she had some fight training and could block most of it, she would have been out like a light. Same thing if she was hit in the head from behind.

    Choke hold over a disagreement with some mouse cages? It doesn't seem realistic to me. Unless the guy was on some serious drugs or alcohol, and had been physically violent with other people in the lab in the past, there's no way he could have done this the way they say it happened. Even just the yelling and arguing alone would have aroused suspicions from people nearby. And nobody has said they heard anything, not a peep.

    I think Annie Le was quietly killed and probably lured to her doom. And there were probably others involved to help conceal the crime, and plant the evidence (if Clark wasn't involved).

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  7. #104
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    U-haul boxes. small = 1.5 cubic feet, size 16 by 12 by 12

    medium = 3 cubic feet, size 18 by 18 by 16, large = 18 by 18 by 24.

    For arguements sake, we could say the large box is close to the dimension of the hidey-hole where Annie was discovered.

    Picture yourself sitting in the large box, it's 2 feet high. I have one in the garage and I can't sit in it. I weigh about 150lbs. My head and arms & legs all stick out the top. BUT, if I were twisted like a pretzel, I'd fill all the empty spaces in the box.

    Has anyone ever taken a whole chicken & broken the leg/thigh joint? It's not that hard You just apply a backward force. Snap!

    So, how could LE deny she was forced into the hidey-hole? That's absurd!

    Sorry, not trying to be gross, just illustrating that he used drastic measures to get her in the tiny space.

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  9. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paulette View Post
    U-haul boxes. small = 1.5 cubic feet, size 16 by 12 by 12

    medium = 3 cubic feet, size 18 by 18 by 16, large = 18 by 18 by 24.

    For arguements sake, we could say the large box is close to the dimension of the hidey-hole where Annie was discovered.

    Picture yourself sitting in the large box, it's 2 feet high. I have one in the garage and I can't sit in it. I weigh about 150lbs. My head and arms & legs all stick out the top. BUT, if I were twisted like a pretzel, I'd fill all the empty spaces in the box.

    Has anyone ever taken a whole chicken & broken the leg/thigh joint? It's not that hard You just apply a backward force. Snap!

    So, how could LE deny she was forced into the hidey-hole? That's absurd!

    Sorry, not trying to be gross, just illustrating that he used drastic measures to get her in the tiny space.
    Do you have a confirmed report about the dimensions of the "chase"? I've never seen anything official about its size. In other Yale buildings, I've seen quite large panels screwed to the wall, and never gave it much thought. Definitely taller than 2 feet -- more like four or five, but don't know the inside dimensions. The New York Post has said it was small, but they could be misinformed.

    I think at this point we really just don't know -- unless you can point us to something credible?

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  11. #106
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    Reply to Skigirl, post #105

    This is from the Evidence thread, post 151, a bit of NG show that was transcribed:

    From Nancy Grace 09/21/09
    http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP.../21/ng.01.html

    "Dr. G. Feigin, out of New Jersey. Dr. Feigin, how would you put a woman`s body in a spot that`s reportedly two by two if you don`t mangle and break the bones?

    FEIGIN: You can`t put a square peg into a round hole. And you have to make it fit. Usually, the shoulders are the widest part of the body, and it has to be manipulated either by fracturing or squeezing, one way or another, to get into a small opening.


    I've read it was as small as 18 inches. The point being, the dimensions of the hidey-hole are probably within the range of 18 inches to 24 inches. If everyone is reporting that range, I see no reason to assume it was much larger. And remember there were pipes obstructing the space.
    Last edited by Paulette; 09-23-2009 at 10:31 AM. Reason: Add header

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  13. #107
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    When I was researching the Who's Who, I found an articled that reported that the chase was 5x5 feet. This surprised me since any discussion I'd been involved in up until then had been quoting a 2x2 foot size.

    Although that article is not quoted in the list of people, I had it in my notes IIRC and will find it again. I did see it mentioned in the [ame="http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89174"]Timeline[/ame], but no source:

    September 13th (5p)- Body found in 5 X 5 chase in wall that houses utility cables running between floors.

    I don't know whether the original size is 5 x 5 and with the pipes and cables, the area becomes 2 x 2.


    ETA Here is the article and quote. I was waiting to read more about the size of the chase before putting this entry in because I didn't know if the size of the chase was proven to be 2 x 2..

    A construction worker who said he worked at 10 Amistad said chases in the building typically are about 5-feet-by-5-feet. He was working Monday on a private job across the street from where Le lived on Lawrence Street in the city’s East Rock neighborhood.

    If the body was discovered in a chase, he said, whoever put it there likely was familiar with the layout of the facility.

    “You have to have that knowledge of the building,” the man said. He only would identify himself as Carlos V.

    “I think that it suggests it was someone who could get into that space,” he told the newspaper. “It certainly would be extremely difficult for someone from outside of Yale to get into that space. Not impossible, but extremely difficult.”

    http://www.nhregister.com/articles/2...5175622155.txt



    Last edited by Noway; 09-23-2009 at 11:08 AM. Reason: added ETA text and fixed formatting issues

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  15. #108
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    It's been my experience, especially in this case, that media reports are subject to change within minutes, so I'm not sure whether this source is credible as far as the size of the chase Annie was actually in. I'm sure he is correct about the size of the typical chase in that building but that doesn't mean there weren't others of different sizes.

    I'd rather see a quote from a LE-type.

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  17. #109
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    I've read about "body fitting" in the Jasmine and Ms Le cases, yet have not commented (until now).

    If you've ever watched a magic show (secrets revealed, or otherwise) you would see how small of a spot an in shape female body can fit into!

    There is a reason magician assistants are female and in shape.

    Sorry if I spoiled the magic for any magic fans.

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  19. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skigirl View Post
    Do you have a confirmed report about the dimensions of the "chase"? I've never seen anything official about its size. In other Yale buildings, I've seen quite large panels screwed to the wall, and never gave it much thought. Definitely taller than 2 feet -- more like four or five, but don't know the inside dimensions. The New York Post has said it was small, but they could be misinformed.

    I think at this point we really just don't know -- unless you can point us to something credible?
    I'm only guessing here but I think it was said the chase where Annie's body was found was near a bathroom. That makes me think it was a plumbing chase. Plumbing chases generally only need to allow access to on/off valves on water lines and cleanouts on waste lines, etc. Water lines are narrow copper tubing and waste lines are either cast iron or PVC that are much wider in diameter, but still only maybe 4-5". There may also be ventilation ductwork in a chase like this. These types of chases may only serve a smaller area of a building near a bathroom or set of bathrooms, a kitchen, etc.

    The types of access panels that may be quite long or generally larger that Skigirl referred to may be for access to chases containing electrical lines, maybe telephone lines, etc. These types of chases may cover service to a larger area of a building than a plumbing chase.

  20. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paulette View Post
    U-haul boxes. small = 1.5 cubic feet, size 16 by 12 by 12

    medium = 3 cubic feet, size 18 by 18 by 16, large = 18 by 18 by 24.

    For arguements sake, we could say the large box is close to the dimension of the hidey-hole where Annie was discovered.

    Picture yourself sitting in the large box, it's 2 feet high. I have one in the garage and I can't sit in it. I weigh about 150lbs. My head and arms & legs all stick out the top. BUT, if I were twisted like a pretzel, I'd fill all the empty spaces in the box.

    Has anyone ever taken a whole chicken & broken the leg/thigh joint? It's not that hard You just apply a backward force. Snap!

    So, how could LE deny she was forced into the hidey-hole? That's absurd!

    Sorry, not trying to be gross, just illustrating that he used drastic measures to get her in the tiny space.
    You are twice the size of this girl.
    I would assume that makes a difference.
    Women are Angels.
    And when someone breaks our wings,
    we simply continue to fly... on a broomstick.

    We're flexible like that.

  21. #112
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    I think we need to keep in mind that RC was dealing with a dead body, one that would not help fit or contort itself into a space with plumbing and/or electrical boxes.
    all my comments are just my opinion. jmho. moo. etc. etc.

  22. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by gxm View Post
    I think we need to keep in mind that RC was dealing with a dead body, one that would not help fit or contort itself into a space with plumbing and/or electrical boxes.
    Do they know exactly which opening she was placed in? Was she high up and out of the way? Like someone suggested before, maybe she was dropped into place from a floor above?

  23. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by static View Post
    What I cannot understand is why scratches on his stomach,upper arms and back...not on his face, I almost wonder if he was waiting for her with his shirt off and a mask on. Did they say it was his shirt in the ceiling> ? or just clothes? I know that sounds ridiculous but, I think instinct is to scratch at the eyes or face...or even his forearms.
    I have to re-read your message, and think about it, and yeah, the scratches on his back would not be possible if she was in a choke hold from behind. No way. Even with his shirt off, her instinct would be to reach up and go for the face, maybe the eyes. Those scratches could have come from amorous relations with his girlfriend (I'm not trying to be facetious, but giving an alternative explanation). The true test of whether she did scratch him or not will be the DNA evidence from under her nails (if there is any).

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  25. #115
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    If he was sitting on top of her while strangling her, he could keep his face out of reach of her hands...not to mention, when being strangled, the first instinct is to try to remove whatever is choking you (their hands or some tool). Sure, she'd try to "attack" him back, but her arms would be much shorter than his, making it more difficult for her to reach his face especially if he was moving/turning his face during the murder.

    Don't forget, she would lose consciousness after not too long. Also, we don't know at what point she inflicted the scratches on him...it may have been during the initial conflict before it turned to intention to kill.

    If only we knew the chain of events...verbal altercation? then some physical? attempted rape? then murder? what???

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  27. #116
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    Regarding the scratches on him - might he have gotten some of those while attempting to dispose of her body? For example, on the edge of the opening he was forcing her into?

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  29. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by debirlfan View Post
    Regarding the scratches on him - might he have gotten some of those while attempting to dispose of her body? For example, on the edge of the opening he was forcing her into?
    I've suspected this very same thing too, in relation to the abrasions on his arms. The metal edges of access panel openings could account for those types of wounds. Since the chase was deconstructed in some way so as not to destroy evidence when Annie's body was removed, investigators have probably thoroughly examined the area. I don't see how RC could plausibly explain away any of his DNA on the edge of the opening.

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  31. #118
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    Unless he was disposing of the body without his shirt on, he wouldn't have scratches on his back, and abrasions on his arms would be more evident. Plus, they would have found pieces of his skin, not just flakes, around the opening.

    It definitely doesn't explain how his pen got in there. Is the place of entry at chest level? It sounded like it was out of the way, which is why they didn't find the body the first time they looked in the chase.

  32. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shlock Homes View Post
    Unless he was disposing of the body without his shirt on, he wouldn't have scratches on his back, and abrasions on his arms would be more evident. Plus, they would have found pieces of his skin, not just flakes, around the opening.

    It definitely doesn't explain how his pen got in there. Is the place of entry at chest level? It sounded like it was out of the way, which is why they didn't find the body the first time they looked in the chase.
    Please post the source for your last statement. My understanding is a cadaver dog found Annie's body on Sunday.

  33. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shlock Homes View Post
    Unless he was disposing of the body without his shirt on, he wouldn't have scratches on his back, and abrasions on his arms would be more evident. Plus, they would have found pieces of his skin, not just flakes, around the opening.

    It definitely doesn't explain how his pen got in there. Is the place of entry at chest level? It sounded like it was out of the way, which is why they didn't find the body the first time they looked in the chase.
    Depends on exactly where this chase was and how he got access to it - there's been a lot of speculation, but I don't think there's been a definite answer. I know one suggestion is that he might moved a ceiling tile, climbed up into the ceiling, and dropped/pushed her body over the top of a wall. If that were the case, I could easily picture his shirt riding up, and him scraping his back and/or chest on the metal frame of the drop ceiling, or on the wires that support it. Leaning over into such an area would also explain how he might have dropped his pen if it was in his shirt pocket.

  34. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by debirlfan View Post
    Depends on exactly where this chase was and how he got access to it - there's been a lot of speculation, but I don't think there's been a definite answer. I know one suggestion is that he might moved a ceiling tile, climbed up into the ceiling, and dropped/pushed her body over the top of a wall. If that were the case, I could easily picture his shirt riding up, and him scraping his back and/or chest on the metal frame of the drop ceiling, or on the wires that support it. Leaning over into such an area would also explain how he might have dropped his pen if it was in his shirt pocket.
    In a fairly new building like the Amistad facility, chase construction would've preceded installation of the lay-in ceiling grid. This means that the grid is installed around the contours of walls. So, probability of the scenario of RC climbing through lay-in ceiling tiles and hoisting Annie's body up and over into the chase is unlikely. Besides, all of that weight would've caused the grid and thus the ceiling to collapse.

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  36. #122
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    Originally Posted by Shlock Homes [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4203242#post4203242"][/ame]
    Unless he was disposing of the body without his shirt on, he wouldn't have scratches on his back, and abrasions on his arms would be more evident. Plus, they would have found pieces of his skin, not just flakes, around the opening.

    It definitely doesn't explain how his pen got in there. Is the place of entry at chest level? It sounded like it was out of the way, which is why they didn't find the body the first time they looked in the chase.



    Quote Originally Posted by Emily Booth View Post
    Please post the source for your last statement. My understanding is a cadaver dog found Annie's body on Sunday.


    About the dogs:

    http://www.fox61.com/hc-annie-le-aut...,5093883.story


    Delay in discovery of the body: first dogs brought into the case were SEARCH dogs, those who search scent. The second set of dogs were CADAVER dogs, those seeking out cadaverene, putrescine as the first chemicals released during decomposition. The environmental factors of the temporary "grave" (humidity, temperature, etc.) effect the development, timing and concentration but rest assured, the good ole blow-fly and the "I'm here in 72 hours" maggot arrive basically ignoring the environment!

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  38. #123
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    Thank you for providing the source re: the dogs, Joypath!

    Search dogs and cadaver dogs were used to find Annie Le's body.

    Search dogs did not find Annie Le's body because of the odor of the many animals in the animal lab that made it difficult for the search dogs to locate her body. LE had to use cadaver dogs before they could locate her body. It was not due to the location of the chase being out of the way.

    If it was due to the location of the chase, I would've liked to have seen that source shared here since it would be add'l info re: the evidence.
    Last edited by Emily Booth; 09-25-2009 at 08:21 AM. Reason: add

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  40. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by joypath View Post
    Originally Posted by Shlock Homes
    Unless he was disposing of the body without his shirt on, he wouldn't have scratches on his back, and abrasions on his arms would be more evident. Plus, they would have found pieces of his skin, not just flakes, around the opening.

    It definitely doesn't explain how his pen got in there. Is the place of entry at chest level? It sounded like it was out of the way, which is why they didn't find the body the first time they looked in the chase.



    About the dogs:

    http://www.fox61.com/hc-annie-le-aut...,5093883.story


    Delay in discovery of the body: first dogs brought into the case were SEARCH dogs, those who search scent. The second set of dogs were CADAVER dogs, those seeking out cadaverene, putrescine as the first chemicals released during decomposition. The environmental factors of the temporary "grave" (humidity, temperature, etc.) effect the development, timing and concentration but rest assured, the good ole blow-fly and the "I'm here in 72 hours" maggot arrive basically ignoring the environment!

    I clicked on the link you provided and found that nothing was mentioned about search dogs looking for live human scent:

    Investigators had attempted to bring a cadaver dog into the building earlier in the week, but because of the large number of animals in the laboratory, the dogs were unable to do a thorough search. Le, from Placerville, Calif., was to have been married Sunday at the North Ritz Club in Syosset, N.Y., to Jonathan Widawsky, a graduate student at Columbia University in New York. Police have said that he is not a suspect and is helping with the investigation.

    ...

    It wasn't until five days after her disappearance that members of the state police crime squad, with the assistance of a cadaver dog, discovered her fully-clothed body. She was wearing the same clothes as seen in a video of her entering the building last Tuesday morning, a source said.


    ETA: http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/09...in;contentBody

    This link does talk about search dogs on September 10, but may not distinguish between search and cadaver dogs, since some do both.
    Last edited by Noway; 09-25-2009 at 04:30 PM.

  41. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by PatientOne View Post
    In a fairly new building like the Amistad facility, chase construction would've preceded installation of the lay-in ceiling grid. This means that the grid is installed around the contours of walls. So, probability of the scenario of RC climbing through lay-in ceiling tiles and hoisting Annie's body up and over into the chase is unlikely. Besides, all of that weight would've caused the grid and thus the ceiling to collapse.
    I'm not sure about that - have seen it done both ways. Think about it - a drop ceiling would conceal wiring/sprinkler pipes/ventilation ducts etc., and it would be logical to have unobstructed access to the chases where pipes and the like run vertically.

    As to him climbing on the grid holding the ceiling, I wasn't suggesting that. If he planned to dump her body over the top of the wall, I would assume he would climb onto a counter or table at the side of the side of the room, and remove the ceiling tile closest to the wall, lift her though the opening, and over the top of the wall.

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