View Poll Results: Do you think Zodiac's handwriting resembles the RN?

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Thread: I found a handwriting match to the RN

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  1. #1
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    I found a handwriting match to the RN

    I've looked at Cherokee's handwriting analysis here:

    [ame="http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?p=115065"]Analysis of the Linguistics and Handwriting in the Ramsey Ransom Note - Page 3 - Forums For Justice[/ame]

    I do think that there is some resemblance in some letters such as the letters y and q, the reservation I have is that anyone with a marker could produce those letters that resemble both the PR and RN. I also wonder if he is cherry picking since if you do enough handwriting with variations, esp with a marker, you could cherry pick apparent matches. In this spirit I found another handwriting that closely resembles matches the RN.

    Take a look

    http://www.thedenverchannel.com/2006/0818/9699449.jpg
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikisour...odiacsPoem.jpg
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikisour...-Schoolbus.jpg
    http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/File:Zodiac-Bomb.gif

    I suspect that the RN author knew of L&L and possibly Charles Linbergh kidnapping, as well as movies like Ransom and Dirty Harry as I have shown in earlier posts.

    I suspect that the author knew of the Zodiac Killer and attempted to intentionally write in a handwriting style resembling the Zodiac's known exemplars. Using a marker greatly simplifies the task based on strong similarities in handwriting between the two.
    Last edited by voynich; 09-16-2009 at 10:36 PM.

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  3. #2
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    Sorry, but Patsy wrote the note. May she RIP.
    The above is my opinion only based on published accounts of the case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WolfmarsGirl View Post
    Sorry, but Patsy wrote the note. May she RIP.


    Cherokee kindley posted a dictated handwritten note by PR side by side to the RN

    http://www.forumsforjustice.org/foru...?t=6404&page=2
    scroll down to HANDWRITING ANALYSIS – Part II, Section II The Lowercase Letter ‘q’


    http://www.forumsforjustice.org/foru...1&d=1135885579

    It is obvious to anyone that the two samples do not look anything alike. Obviously the RDI can spin it that PR was disguising her true writing habits in the RN.
    While this is entirely a rational argument, it leaves the question begging, how do we match the RN to PR handwriting if the RN is disguised?
    How can wel tell whether PR wrote the RN in disguise, or an intruder in disguise? I think forensic linguistics is the best way forward out of the deadlock.
    I think that the ZK lower case "t" is distinctive looks the same as in the RN.

    Here's a spooky crackpot idea

    JB's killer was none other than the Zodiac!
    Last edited by voynich; 09-16-2009 at 10:54 PM.

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    The simplest answer is most likely the correct one: PR did it.

    Just like in the Caylee case where the mom is spinning all kinds of 'some other dude did it' scenarios, it is obvious that the mom did it.

    There is no other dude.
    The above is my opinion only based on published accounts of the case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WolfmarsGirl View Post
    The simplest answer is most likely the correct one: PR did it.

    Just like in the Caylee case where the mom is spinning all kinds of 'some other dude did it' scenarios, it is obvious that the mom did it.

    There is no other dude.
    A grand jury didn't think so. The Boulder DA's office didn't think so. The only office who thought so were the BPD. The very office who botched the investigation so badly. No disrespect, but I don't see how it's so obvious that the mom did do it. Sure, there's lots of speculation and rumors swirling around her, as well as John. My question is, if it's so obvious that she is guilty, why was she never arrested? Surely the BPD could have arrested her if they had the evidence. And now with the "touch" DNA evidence, PR is still being accused. If I'm correct, and I may not be because I haven't really had time to research the info, the foreign DNA was found not only on the waistband of the underwear, but also in the crotch area. Now, I could understand if whomever packaged the undies touched the waistband, but when you have the same DNA in two different areas, doesn't that count for anything?

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    Quote Originally Posted by weasel View Post
    A grand jury didn't think so. The Boulder DA's office didn't think so.
    Yeah, we KNOW what they thought: "oh, there's no way a mommy could do something so awful."

    No disrespect, but I don't see how it's so obvious that the mom did do it.
    How much time have you got?

    My question is, if it's so obvious that she is guilty, why was she never arrested? Surely the BPD could have arrested her if they had the evidence.
    weasel, I've heard that question at least a thousand times. And I keep giving the same answer: because of the DA's office. The police WANTED to arrest her! The FBI TOLD them to arrest her! The Dream Team attorneys BEGGED them to arrest her! But the DA shot them down each time.

    Now, I could understand if whomever packaged the undies touched the waistband, but when you have the same DNA in two different areas, doesn't that count for anything?
    It might IF they could tell what KIND it was or WHEN it was left. So far they can't.
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    Hi voynich.

    Good post.

    It is interesting how the ZK does resemble the rn style, the unbalanced 's'; the curvy 'f'; the weak backed 'd' ; http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikisour...odiacsPoem.jpg

    the detached base of the 'I'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tadpole12 View Post
    Hi voynich.

    Good post.

    It is interesting how the ZK does resemble the rn style, the unbalanced 's'; the curvy 'f'; the weak backed 'd' ; http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikisour...odiacsPoem.jpg

    the detached base of the 'I'.

    that's what I think

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    Quote Originally Posted by voynich View Post
    that's what I think
    Hi voynich.

    The similarities in style between the rn and BK are interesting. I realize that you've probably looked at a milliard of font types as available online, as have I.

    And you did find a writer who exhibits similar style
    So the idea that only PR exemplars resemble the rn is not accurate.

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  17. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by voynich View Post
    Cherokee kindley posted a dictated handwritten note by PR side by side to the RN

    http://www.forumsforjustice.org/foru...?t=6404&page=2
    scroll down to HANDWRITING ANALYSIS – Part II, Section II The Lowercase Letter ‘q’


    http://www.forumsforjustice.org/foru...1&d=1135885579

    It is obvious to anyone that the two samples do not look anything alike. Obviously the RDI can spin it that PR was disguising her true writing habits in the RN.
    While this is entirely a rational argument, it leaves the question begging, how do we match the RN to PR handwriting if the RN is disguised?
    How can wel tell whether PR wrote the RN in disguise, or an intruder in disguise? I think forensic linguistics is the best way forward out of the deadlock.
    I think that the ZK lower case "t" is distinctive looks the same as in the RN.

    Here's a spooky crackpot idea

    JB's killer was none other than the Zodiac!
    I get your point.....or shall I say the subtle sarcasm.That's why I don't even bother to analyse the note.Everybody sees what they wanna see."It looks like" is not a fact,I agree and it doesn't point to guilt but it's open to spin.Didn't it already begin?IDI's will always argue that you can't include PR and RDI's that you can't exclude her.What does this tell us about all this except that every camp is using this in their favour even if that doesn't solve this case but only makes it a bigger mess than it already is?


    The RDI experts didn't convince me so far that PR is the writer.
    But can IDI experts tell me WHO wrote it?I only heard from them that it WASN'T PR.Okay.Why don't you also tell me what kind of guy it was and what on earth did he want by writing it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by madeleine View Post
    I get your point.....or shall I say the subtle sarcasm.That's why I don't even bother to analyse the note.Everybody sees what they wanna see."It looks like" is not a fact,I agree and it doesn't point to guilt but it's open to spin.Didn't it already begin?IDI's will always argue that you can't include PR and RDI's that you can't exclude her.What does this tell us about all this except that every camp is using this in their favour even if that doesn't solve this case but only makes it a bigger mess than it already is?


    The RDI experts didn't convince me so far that PR is the writer.
    But can IDI experts tell me WHO wrote it?I only heard from them that it WASN'T PR.Okay.Why don't you also tell me what kind of guy it was and what on earth did he want by writing it?
    x-files LOL.

    I plan to make a similar thread in the near future.

  20. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by voynich View Post
    x-files LOL.

    I plan to make a similar thread in the near future.
    You can even start a Donald Duck thread if that makes you feel better.

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  22. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by madeleine View Post
    I get your point.....or shall I say the subtle sarcasm.That's why I don't even bother to analyse the note.Everybody sees what they wanna see."It looks like" is not a fact,I agree and it doesn't point to guilt but it's open to spin.Didn't it already begin?IDI's will always argue that you can't include PR and RDI's that you can't exclude her.What does this tell us about all this except that every camp is using this in their favour even if that doesn't solve this case but only makes it a bigger mess than it already is?


    The RDI experts didn't convince me so far that PR is the writer.
    But can IDI experts tell me WHO wrote it?I only heard from them that it WASN'T PR.Okay.Why don't you also tell me what kind of guy it was and what on earth did he want by writing it?
    Hi Madeleine.

    "Everybody sees what they wanna see."

    yep, you called it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by madeleine View Post
    The RDI experts didn't convince me so far that PR is the writer.
    Me neither. It was my own two eyes. Which, like it or not, is what it would come down to with a jury, too.

    Actually, that reminds me. Alex Hunter actually had a pretty good idea (for once) to break the deadlock: just let the jury see the comparison charts for themselves.

    But can IDI experts tell me WHO wrote it?I only heard from them that it WASN'T PR.Okay.Why don't you also tell me what kind of guy it was and what on earth did he want by writing it?
    Exquisite.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperDave View Post
    Me neither. It was my own two eyes. Which, like it or not, is what it would come down to with a jury, too.

    Actually, that reminds me. Alex Hunter actually had a pretty good idea (for once) to break the deadlock: just let the jury see the comparison charts for themselves.



    Exquisite.
    You know what's bothering me re "Patsy wrote it"?The last part of the note when it gets personal.It's like someone else wrote/composed that part even if the handwriting is the same.Now I'd like to know,if PR wrote it and in the first part it's obvious the writer tried to pin it on a SFF(kidnapping),why change it completely in the last part by implying it was someone having a personal problem with John?The only thing that makes sense to me would be that being in a hurry she didn't even READ what she wrote when she was done and didn't even bother if the note makes sense or not.But why write it then in the first place?

    I'd have some IDI questions as well re the note but since they never bother to answer except for when it's about scoring points I'll drop it.

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  28. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by voynich View Post
    Cherokee kindley posted a dictated handwritten note by PR side by side to the RN

    http://www.forumsforjustice.org/foru...?t=6404&page=2
    scroll down to HANDWRITING ANALYSIS Part II, Section II The Lowercase Letter q


    http://www.forumsforjustice.org/foru...1&d=1135885579

    It is obvious to anyone that the two samples do not look anything alike. Obviously the RDI can spin it that PR was disguising her true writing habits in the RN.
    While this is entirely a rational argument, it leaves the question begging, how do we match the RN to PR handwriting if the RN is disguised?
    How can wel tell whether PR wrote the RN in disguise, or an intruder in disguise? I think forensic linguistics is the best way forward out of the deadlock.
    I think that the ZK lower case "t" is distinctive looks the same as in the RN.

    Here's a spooky crackpot idea

    JB's killer was none other than the Zodiac!

    LOL, pretty wild speculation here isn`t it. I don`t think the RN resembles anything the Zodiac wrote, really you`re stretching a bit aren`t you.

    Forensics linguistics have linked the note to Patsy Ramsey. She wrote it with her left hand. And they are not comparing handwriting, but previous and later correspondence by Patsy....thoughts, ideas and words...

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  30. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by WolfmarsGirl View Post
    Sorry, but Patsy wrote the note. May she RIP.
    Nice to see you back, Wolfsmargirl. It's been a while.
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  31. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by WolfmarsGirl View Post
    Sorry, but Patsy wrote the note. May she RIP.
    Yeah, she did.
    And what are the odds that the author of the RN...AND PATSY...would make their lower case A's....like this....a, with a "hoodie"? Kinda "ironic" that they BOTH would make their a's like that, huh?? (It's not THAT common).
    "This time we get it right."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ames View Post
    Yeah, she did.
    And what are the odds that the author of the RN...AND PATSY...would make their lower case A's....like this....a, with a "hoodie"? Kinda "ironic" that they BOTH would make their a's like that, huh?? (It's not THAT common).
    Writing a small a as such is very familar for anyone whose ever studied journalism or communication. It's a long story as to how and why this is done but before computers and word processors, a's were hand printed that way if you had to correct a word with a small a if you wrote an a as a capital A, it would be printed like that by the typesetter. So you were carefully when proof reading to make the a with the hood.

    I graduated with a journalism degree back in the mid 70s and to this day I still print a small a to look like something a typewriter would make.
    Hope I explained that well enough.
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    Quote Originally Posted by azwriter View Post
    Writing a small a as such is very familar for anyone whose ever studied journalism or communication. It's a long story as to how and why this is done but before computers and word processors, a's were hand printed that way if you had to correct a word with a small a if you wrote an a as a capital A, it would be printed like that by the typesetter. So you were carefully when proof reading to make the a with the hood.

    I graduated with a journalism degree back in the mid 70s and to this day I still print a small a to look like something a typewriter would make.
    Hope I explained that well enough.
    azwriter,
    Well explained, now why is your forum name not quertywriter? Do you still proof-read?


    .

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    Interesting info about analysis

    For those who might want to see what an attorney connected to the Ramsey team really thinks about the validity of handwriting analysis, look at pages 200-201 in Perfect Murder, Perfect Town.

    Seems Mr. Tigar has no problem thinking the testimony of experts is a bunch of hooey if it stands to incriminate one of his own. So, couldn't a prosecutor use this back against the RST if they tried to show their client, JR, was excluded from being the note writer?

    Such as: Sorry, Mr. Expert hired by JR, your so-called methods of deciding JR should be excluded just wouldn't be 'verifiable' in court, according to a previous determination in another case by Federal Judge Richard Matsch!
    We want the truth, but can we handle the truth?

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  38. #22
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    Yeah maybe the Zodiac was playing Santa in Boulder.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDZBgHBHQT8"]YouTube - X Files Theme Tune[/ame]

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  40. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by voynich View Post
    I do think that there is some resemblance in some letters such as the letters y and q,
    Now you're thinking!

    the reservation I have is that anyone with a marker could produce those letters that resemble both the PR and RN.
    Highly unlikely.

    I also wonder if he is cherry picking since if you do enough handwriting with variations, esp with a marker, you could cherry pick apparent matches.
    If you were to pick up an original edition of Sex Lies and handwriting, you'd really start seeing a few things. Pretty rare, though.
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  42. #24
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    You gotta admit that it's kinda weird to see this as a coincidence.
    The person that cannot be excluded as the writer is one of the 3 persons who happened to be in the house at the time of the murder.....I mean.......it is something.......

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  44. #25
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    skating away on the thin ice of new day

    Quote Originally Posted by madeleine View Post
    You gotta admit that it's kinda weird to see this as a coincidence.
    The person that cannot be excluded as the writer is one of the 3 persons who happened to be in the house at the time of the murder.....I mean.......it is something.......

    How many millions of others could not be excluded?
    Last edited by WHITEFANG; 05-12-2010 at 12:05 AM.

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