View Poll Results: Do you think Zodiac's handwriting resembles the RN?

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Thread: I found a handwriting match to the RN

  1. #1
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    I found a handwriting match to the RN

    I've looked at Cherokee's handwriting analysis here:

    [ame="http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?p=115065"]Analysis of the Linguistics and Handwriting in the Ramsey Ransom Note - Page 3 - Forums For Justice[/ame]

    I do think that there is some resemblance in some letters such as the letters y and q, the reservation I have is that anyone with a marker could produce those letters that resemble both the PR and RN. I also wonder if he is cherry picking since if you do enough handwriting with variations, esp with a marker, you could cherry pick apparent matches. In this spirit I found another handwriting that closely resembles matches the RN.

    Take a look

    http://www.thedenverchannel.com/2006/0818/9699449.jpg
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikisour...odiacsPoem.jpg
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikisour...-Schoolbus.jpg
    http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/File:Zodiac-Bomb.gif

    I suspect that the RN author knew of L&L and possibly Charles Linbergh kidnapping, as well as movies like Ransom and Dirty Harry as I have shown in earlier posts.

    I suspect that the author knew of the Zodiac Killer and attempted to intentionally write in a handwriting style resembling the Zodiac's known exemplars. Using a marker greatly simplifies the task based on strong similarities in handwriting between the two.
    Last edited by voynich; 09-16-2009 at 10:36 PM.

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  3. #2
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    Sorry, but Patsy wrote the note. May she RIP.
    The above is my opinion only based on published accounts of the case.

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  5. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by WolfmarsGirl View Post
    Sorry, but Patsy wrote the note. May she RIP.


    Cherokee kindley posted a dictated handwritten note by PR side by side to the RN

    http://www.forumsforjustice.org/foru...?t=6404&page=2
    scroll down to HANDWRITING ANALYSIS – Part II, Section II The Lowercase Letter ‘q’


    http://www.forumsforjustice.org/foru...1&d=1135885579

    It is obvious to anyone that the two samples do not look anything alike. Obviously the RDI can spin it that PR was disguising her true writing habits in the RN.
    While this is entirely a rational argument, it leaves the question begging, how do we match the RN to PR handwriting if the RN is disguised?
    How can wel tell whether PR wrote the RN in disguise, or an intruder in disguise? I think forensic linguistics is the best way forward out of the deadlock.
    I think that the ZK lower case "t" is distinctive looks the same as in the RN.

    Here's a spooky crackpot idea

    JB's killer was none other than the Zodiac!
    Last edited by voynich; 09-16-2009 at 10:54 PM.

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  7. #4
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    The simplest answer is most likely the correct one: PR did it.

    Just like in the Caylee case where the mom is spinning all kinds of 'some other dude did it' scenarios, it is obvious that the mom did it.

    There is no other dude.
    The above is my opinion only based on published accounts of the case.

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  9. #5
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    Hi voynich.

    Good post.

    It is interesting how the ZK does resemble the rn style, the unbalanced 's'; the curvy 'f'; the weak backed 'd' ; http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikisour...odiacsPoem.jpg

    the detached base of the 'I'.

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  11. #6
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    Yeah maybe the Zodiac was playing Santa in Boulder.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDZBgHBHQT8"]YouTube - X Files Theme Tune[/ame]

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  13. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by voynich View Post
    Cherokee kindley posted a dictated handwritten note by PR side by side to the RN

    http://www.forumsforjustice.org/foru...?t=6404&page=2
    scroll down to HANDWRITING ANALYSIS – Part II, Section II The Lowercase Letter ‘q’


    http://www.forumsforjustice.org/foru...1&d=1135885579

    It is obvious to anyone that the two samples do not look anything alike. Obviously the RDI can spin it that PR was disguising her true writing habits in the RN.
    While this is entirely a rational argument, it leaves the question begging, how do we match the RN to PR handwriting if the RN is disguised?
    How can wel tell whether PR wrote the RN in disguise, or an intruder in disguise? I think forensic linguistics is the best way forward out of the deadlock.
    I think that the ZK lower case "t" is distinctive looks the same as in the RN.

    Here's a spooky crackpot idea

    JB's killer was none other than the Zodiac!
    I get your point.....or shall I say the subtle sarcasm.That's why I don't even bother to analyse the note.Everybody sees what they wanna see."It looks like" is not a fact,I agree and it doesn't point to guilt but it's open to spin.Didn't it already begin?IDI's will always argue that you can't include PR and RDI's that you can't exclude her.What does this tell us about all this except that every camp is using this in their favour even if that doesn't solve this case but only makes it a bigger mess than it already is?


    The RDI experts didn't convince me so far that PR is the writer.
    But can IDI experts tell me WHO wrote it?I only heard from them that it WASN'T PR.Okay.Why don't you also tell me what kind of guy it was and what on earth did he want by writing it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by madeleine View Post
    I get your point.....or shall I say the subtle sarcasm.That's why I don't even bother to analyse the note.Everybody sees what they wanna see."It looks like" is not a fact,I agree and it doesn't point to guilt but it's open to spin.Didn't it already begin?IDI's will always argue that you can't include PR and RDI's that you can't exclude her.What does this tell us about all this except that every camp is using this in their favour even if that doesn't solve this case but only makes it a bigger mess than it already is?


    The RDI experts didn't convince me so far that PR is the writer.
    But can IDI experts tell me WHO wrote it?I only heard from them that it WASN'T PR.Okay.Why don't you also tell me what kind of guy it was and what on earth did he want by writing it?
    x-files LOL.

    I plan to make a similar thread in the near future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tadpole12 View Post
    Hi voynich.

    Good post.

    It is interesting how the ZK does resemble the rn style, the unbalanced 's'; the curvy 'f'; the weak backed 'd' ; http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikisour...odiacsPoem.jpg

    the detached base of the 'I'.

    that's what I think

  17. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by voynich View Post
    x-files LOL.

    I plan to make a similar thread in the near future.
    You can even start a Donald Duck thread if that makes you feel better.

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  19. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by madeleine View Post
    I get your point.....or shall I say the subtle sarcasm.That's why I don't even bother to analyse the note.Everybody sees what they wanna see."It looks like" is not a fact,I agree and it doesn't point to guilt but it's open to spin.Didn't it already begin?IDI's will always argue that you can't include PR and RDI's that you can't exclude her.What does this tell us about all this except that every camp is using this in their favour even if that doesn't solve this case but only makes it a bigger mess than it already is?


    The RDI experts didn't convince me so far that PR is the writer.
    But can IDI experts tell me WHO wrote it?I only heard from them that it WASN'T PR.Okay.Why don't you also tell me what kind of guy it was and what on earth did he want by writing it?
    Hi Madeleine.

    "Everybody sees what they wanna see."

    yep, you called it!

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  21. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by voynich View Post
    that's what I think
    Hi voynich.

    The similarities in style between the rn and BK are interesting. I realize that you've probably looked at a milliard of font types as available online, as have I.

    And you did find a writer who exhibits similar style
    So the idea that only PR exemplars resemble the rn is not accurate.

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  23. #13
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    I don't understand how anyone can look at the overlay Cherokee did in post 21 of your first link to FFJ and then proclaim that Patsy didn't write the note.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TinaD View Post
    I don't understand how anyone can look at the overlay Cherokee did in post 21 of your first link to FFJ and then proclaim that Patsy didn't write the note.

    Totally agree.

    The other day in a bookshop, I was leafing through some true crime books and came across a huge tome on forensics. It didn't specifically address many aspects of the Ramsey case but it did look at ransom notes and graphology and, I thought, would be massively interesting to people on here. Sadly it was really expensive and I didn't relish the idea of noodles for dinner all week but I'll try to find a cheaper copy and summarise it here.

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  27. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by TinaD View Post
    I don't understand how anyone can look at the overlay Cherokee did in post 21 of your first link to FFJ and then proclaim that Patsy didn't write the note.

    You can superimpose ZK's letters if you use a paintbrush to write the letters since the width of each letter would be broad enough to allow room for any letters skinny enough to fit inside. You have to look at the strokes and other fine details.


    Look at the letter "R", the curve portion of R extends past in the RN, not in PR.


    the letter "a" is hooded in RN, unhooded in PR.

    "m" is rounded in RN, straight lines in PR

    "E" is made w/ straight lines in RN, curved like the letter "c" in PR,

    the tail in "Y" consists of 2 strokes in RN, what looks like a v with a straight line in the middle in v in PR.

  28. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sophie View Post
    Totally agree.

    The other day in a bookshop, I was leafing through some true crime books and came across a huge tome on forensics. It didn't specifically address many aspects of the Ramsey case but it did look at ransom notes and graphology and, I thought, would be massively interesting to people on here. Sadly it was really expensive and I didn't relish the idea of noodles for dinner all week but I'll try to find a cheaper copy and summarise it here.
    Have you had a chance to read McM? curious

  29. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by voynich View Post
    Have you had a chance to read McM? curious
    Eek, no, and I'm aware of having been saying that I'd read it every weekend for the past month. Now got a pile of JBR reading to do that is taller than my daughter! Will *deffo* get to it this weekend, though...
    Last edited by Sophie; 09-17-2009 at 08:17 PM.

  30. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by voynich View Post
    I do think that there is some resemblance in some letters such as the letters y and q,
    Now you're thinking!

    the reservation I have is that anyone with a marker could produce those letters that resemble both the PR and RN.
    Highly unlikely.

    I also wonder if he is cherry picking since if you do enough handwriting with variations, esp with a marker, you could cherry pick apparent matches.
    If you were to pick up an original edition of Sex Lies and handwriting, you'd really start seeing a few things. Pretty rare, though.
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  32. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by WolfmarsGirl View Post
    Sorry, but Patsy wrote the note. May she RIP.
    Nice to see you back, Wolfsmargirl. It's been a while.
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  33. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by madeleine View Post
    The RDI experts didn't convince me so far that PR is the writer.
    Me neither. It was my own two eyes. Which, like it or not, is what it would come down to with a jury, too.

    Actually, that reminds me. Alex Hunter actually had a pretty good idea (for once) to break the deadlock: just let the jury see the comparison charts for themselves.

    But can IDI experts tell me WHO wrote it?I only heard from them that it WASN'T PR.Okay.Why don't you also tell me what kind of guy it was and what on earth did he want by writing it?
    Exquisite.
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  35. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tadpole12 View Post
    So the idea that only PR exemplars resemble the rn is not accurate.
    Even if it isn't accurate, PR's have one thing on them that no one else's do: we KNOW she was there.
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  37. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sophie View Post
    Totally agree.
    That goes for me too.
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  39. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by voynich View Post
    I do think that there is some resemblance in some letters such as the letters y and q,
    Now you're talking my language.

    the reservation I have is that anyone with a marker could produce those letters that resemble both the PR and RN.
    I imagine that's a tad unlikely.

    Obviously the RDI can spin it that PR was disguising her true writing habits in the RN.
    While this is entirely a rational argument,
    Thank you! You are a gentleman.

    it leaves the question begging, how do we match the RN to PR handwriting if the RN is disguised?
    How can we tell whether PR wrote the RN in disguise, or an intruder in disguise?
    Good questions. The best answers to both I can give you are:

    1)as I understand it, it's the really distinctive similarities that give it away. Just as an example, the "a"s. I heard somewhere (can't remember specifically just now) that only 5% of the American population writes them like that.

    2) I realize you probably won't like this, especially coming from me, but there's no way around it: a lot of it comes down to who can be placed inside the house that night. As of now, no one has ever been able to show that there WAS an intruder in there to begin with, whereas PR can be shown to have been there.

    I think forensic linguistics is the best way forward out of the deadlock.
    I imagine that's what Hunter thought, too. Until it blew up in in his face. I say start over. Bring in linguists who are as unbiased as possible. As good a place to start as any I can think of.

    the letter "a" is hooded in RN, unhooded in PR.
    Ah-ha! I got you on that one, voynich. In her writings BEFORE the crime, she wrote it both ways (about 50-50). AFTER the crime, she only wrote it unhooded. I make mention of this in my book.

    She was the only person who was shown to have changed her writing after the crime. As my buddy Curly the Stooge would say, "dat's a coincidunce!"
    Last edited by SuperDave; 09-17-2009 at 11:28 PM.
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  41. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperDave View Post
    Me neither. It was my own two eyes. Which, like it or not, is what it would come down to with a jury, too.

    Actually, that reminds me. Alex Hunter actually had a pretty good idea (for once) to break the deadlock: just let the jury see the comparison charts for themselves.



    Exquisite.
    You know what's bothering me re "Patsy wrote it"?The last part of the note when it gets personal.It's like someone else wrote/composed that part even if the handwriting is the same.Now I'd like to know,if PR wrote it and in the first part it's obvious the writer tried to pin it on a SFF(kidnapping),why change it completely in the last part by implying it was someone having a personal problem with John?The only thing that makes sense to me would be that being in a hurry she didn't even READ what she wrote when she was done and didn't even bother if the note makes sense or not.But why write it then in the first place?

    I'd have some IDI questions as well re the note but since they never bother to answer except for when it's about scoring points I'll drop it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperDave View Post
    Now you're talking my language.



    I imagine that's a tad unlikely.



    Thank you! You are a gentleman.



    Good questions. The best answers to both I can give you are:

    1)as I understand it, it's the really distinctive similarities that give it away. Just as an example, the "a"s. I heard somewhere (can't remember specifically just now) that only 5% of the American population writes them like that.

    2) I realize you probably won't like this, especially coming from me, but there's no way around it: a lot of it comes down to who can be placed inside the house that night. As of now, no one has ever been able to show that there WAS an intruder in there to begin with, whereas PR can be shown to have been there.



    I imagine that's what Hunter thought, too. Until it blew up in in his face. I say start over. Bring in linguists who are as unbiased as possible. As good a place to start as any I can think of.


    Ah-ha! I got you on that one, voynich. In her writings BEFORE the crime, she wrote it both ways (about 50-50). AFTER the crime, she only wrote it unhooded. I make mention of this in my book.

    She was the only person who was shown to have changed her writing after the crime. As my buddy Curly the Stooge would say, "dat's a coincidunce!"
    @bold
    IMO that won't be possible,not in THIS case.This case is too high profile,everbody wants to gain something by getting involved.

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