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Thread: Possible Murder Motives#2

  1. #1
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    Possible Murder Motives#2

    Please discuss possible murder motives here and please stay on topic. thanks

    [ame=http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89044]Thread #1[/ame]

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  3. #2
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    Quote:
    After all, Tuba told us that Annie was not in harmony with her marriage.
    What does this mean? Did someone say that Annie had some doubts about her upcoming wedding? Annie was Catholic and her fiance (I believe) is Jewish. Perhaps there were some concerns about that. Does anyone know?

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by JL50ish View Post
    What does this mean? Did someone say that Annie had some doubts about her upcoming wedding? Annie was Catholic and her fiance (I believe) is Jewish. Perhaps there were some concerns about that. Does anyone know?
    I saw that also, and Tuba has been very close to accurate so far.

    I still think there is alot they are not saying about all of it. Another case of WorkPlace Violence scenario just doesnt fly

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    dr dona quote...

    I have been a physician for 30 years. And, let me tell you there can be huge control freaks in this field. Some men are OK if another guy is involved but are nuts when the authority figure/MD /reseacher is a woman. I was a Dept. Chair and had to discuss remediation activities with another MD. His face became red/he clinched his fists and came after me.
    I RAN for MY LIFE!!! He really wanted to hurt me!!! This individual had major control issue and poor interpersonal relationships with women. Strong women scared the H--- out of him. Anc, I'm not quiet. I don't thing Annie provoked him verbally- it doesn't seem to be her nature. I really agree with the distracted theory- Um- OK- but, I'm in a hurry- got a class to teach.--His interpretation- You think you're better then me you b------- you've have a hot shot class to teach!! Explosion- but, he could have stopped. That's what maturity and true control is about. You can't just get mad and kill people.

    I have noticed that some (not all or most) male co-workers, bosses, and subordinates have NO PROBLEM "correcting" women employees about mundane or "non issues" that they would NEVER confront another male employee about. These guys are too imtimidated to confront a male employee (even if warrranted!) out of fear of "I-don't-know-what"....but, they won't think twice about calling some woman "on the carpet" over the most trivial or non-issue. And when the woman points out that issue is a "non-issue" - the guy gets even more angry and verbally abusive.

    So, I think that is some of the basis here...but not all. I just don't think a lab tech kills someone over a dirty cage...unless he's absolutely nuts. Maybe she threatened to report his harassing behavior and he had already been warned to stop.

    BTW...I don't think that HIS engagement was very legit. He got engaged 18 months ago, and the wedding wasn't going to be until the end of 2011. That just sounds like a phony engagement to get his girlfriend "off his back". Since they weren't in college, there wouldn't really be a good reason to wait that long.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JL50ish View Post
    What does this mean? Did someone say that Annie had some doubts about her upcoming wedding? Annie was Catholic and her fiance (I believe) is Jewish. Perhaps there were some concerns about that. Does anyone know?
    I think I read somewhere that she had either converted to Judaism or was going to.

    By the way, who is Tuba?

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    Another angle...

    She's getting married very soon....the wedding is going to be a very expensive affair...his wedding is a long way away and won't be nearly as nice...his fiancee works there, too...perhaps she's heard about Annie's plans and is very jealous of Annie's wedding, Annie's future career, and Annie's fiance's future career....so, she continues to bad mouth Annie to anyone and everyone (hence the bad rumors about Annie)....perhaps she even sabotages Annie on occasions. It wouldn't surprise me since she may have suspected that her fiance thought that Annie was cute or a "good catch" or whatever.

    Also...all of Clark's fiancee's talk about "how nice Annie's wedding is going to be" would be annoying the heck out of him...making him feel more inadequate and cheated out what he thinks should be his, too.

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    Video at 4:52 informs us that New Have Police Chief said Annie Le & Raymond Clark never had a romantic relationship. That's a pretty firm statement, so I'm ruling out affair altogether...which I didn't think anyway. I guess anything could change, but I'm sticking with my gut on this.

    http://www.comcast.net/video/annie_l...ase/1267553881

    Also, from the article:
    Quote

    Le's work at the university involved experiments on mice that were part of research into enzymes that could have implications for treatment of cancer, diabetes and muscular dystrophy, while Clark's technician job involved cleaning floors and mouse cages.

    New Haven Police Chief James Lewis has called Le's death a case of workplace violence. He would not elaborate except to say reports that the two had a romantic relationship were untrue.
    Unquote

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    From the NY Daily News Article:

    "Investigators speculate that he criticized her for some additional lapse in protocol. His concern was likely less the animals' welfare than his need to be in charge, if only when it came to mice.

    Everything everybody knows about Le suggests she would not seek to put him in his place or somehow demean him.

    More likely, she was simply distracted. Her wedding was just five days away. Her mind was no doubt filled with thoughts about her hair, her dress, the guest list. And she was trying to get all her pressing lab work done.

    Investigators believe she may have responded to Clark with something like, "Yeah, I'll get to it, thanks. I'm busy now."

    A guy such as Clark could have mistaken distracted for dismissive.

    And what he took for dismissive may have been harder for him to take from a young, smart, diminutive woman.


    Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2009/09/18/2009-09-18_murder_ink_a_pen_may_put_creep_in_prison_for_ke eps.html#ixzz0RUmogIWN"


    ... That is EXACTLY what I was thinking. I could see it happening. Especially given they are the same age -

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    I've never thought they had a romantic relationship, but I do think that RC was fixated on Annie. Whatever the reason I believe he had singled her out. Strangulation is just too personal. She was fighting back and clawing his chest, he had plenty of time to snap out of it but he made the decision to choke the life out of her.

    And, remember, he initiated the meeting that ended in Annie's murder. He was the one who put the wheels in motion for her tragic death.

    ETA: In my gut, I believe that the fact that she was pretty and out of his league had a lot to do with the anger he directed at Annie, and he used the mice as an excuse to lash out at her.
    Last edited by gxm; 09-18-2009 at 05:26 PM. Reason: clarification
    all my comments are just my opinion. jmho. moo. etc. etc.

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    Yes...who is Tuba? Is that his screenname? I can't find him. I'd like to go and read his posts but can't find him thru advanced search.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MLE View Post
    I think I read somewhere that she had either converted to Judaism or was going to.

    By the way, who is Tuba?
    She converted and, according to friends, was happy in her new faith, and enthusiastic about the wedding.

    All the rustlings about secret affairs are based entirely on projections and speculations about what would spark a reasonable person to commit murder. Of course, reasonable people don't strangle their co-workers. Any police investigator would relish having any additional motive in even an unpremeditated murder: They have access to home and work emails, text messages, and computer files; friends' testimony; and phone records. So far, there are no indications that anything romantic or sexual went on between the two in real life and whether something went on in Clark's head is a moot question.
    Last edited by adnoid; 09-18-2009 at 09:01 PM. Reason: Don't disparage other members.

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    I hope he cops a plea, because if so, he'll have to "tell all". I'm sure that his attys are going to tell him that "he's toast". Famous defense lawyer Mickey Sherman recently said that if his DNA is under his fingernails than "it's over...he's guilty." Therefore, it's likely that his attys are going to tell him that no jury is going to acquit him with such evidence against him. And, no one is going to accept some "insanity" defense since he tried to "clean up" the scene and hide the body.

    So...if he wants to have any hope to get out of prison before he dies, then he'd better plea and tell all. And, LE will require that he tell all...and no B.S. that she somehow "caused" this.

    BTW..... he must be in his cell just tearing his hair out....one day he's a lab tech living a "normal existance" and the next day he flips out and kills a doctoral student and his life is forever changed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JL50ish View Post
    Yes...who is Tuba? Is that his screenname? I can't find him. I'd like to go and read his posts but can't find him thru advanced search.
    JL50is, Please go to the Forensic Astrology forum, and there you can read back on the threads about what these wonderful Astros do in that forum. Tuba, as well as others are brilliantly accurate.


    "There are two kinds of fools: those who can't change their opinions, and those who won't" ..... Josh Billings

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chanler View Post
    She converted and, according to friends, was happy in her new faith, and enthusiastic about the wedding.

    All the rustlings about secret affairs are based entirely on projections and speculations about what would spark a reasonable person to commit murder. Of course, reasonable people don't strangle their co-workers. Any police investigator would relish having any additional motive in even an unpremeditated murder: They have access to home and work emails, text messages, and computer files; friends' testimony; and phone records. So far, there are no indications that anything romantic or sexual went on between the two in real life and whether something went on in Clark's head is a moot question.

    According to the synagogue...Annie had not converted. She was studying the religion (likely at the behest of fiance's parents). However, since she would not have converted prior to her wedding, it could be construed that she was going thru the "motions to learn about the religion and be open to conversion - if moved to do so" to silence her in-laws until the wedding was past. I say this because as someone who is very close to the Vietnamese Catholic community, it is very unlikely that such a person would actually go thru the conversion. Vietnamese CAtholics are very strong in their faith because their people have had such tremendous martyrs for the faith...

    Annie's family had a Catholic memorial service for her yesterday. Technically, the fiance has no right to go thru with his memorial service or decide her burial since he is not "next of kin." Sure, he can have some kind of service for him and his family, but he can't require that her body/coffin be there. Her parents will decide her final funeral and burial.

    But, back to topic....
    Last edited by adnoid; 09-18-2009 at 09:02 PM. Reason: Remove redacted comment.

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    =Jersey*Girl;4175156]Video at 4:52 informs us that New Have Police Chief said Annie Le & Raymond Clark never had a romantic relationship. That's a pretty firm statement, so I'm ruling out affair altogether...which I didn't think anyway. I guess anything could change, but I'm sticking with my gut on this.
    All that really remains for me is whether or not she was sexually assalted, or if there was even an attempt at sexual contact. My feeling is no. Which would mean this is simpler than we all can believe: he got angry and killed her over an argument, at least on the surface, about work. I think it's hard for us to put our arms around this. If there was evidence of sexual assault we would all be familiar with it. It seems to me that whenever a guy kills a woman, the vast majority of the time, it turns out to be preceded by a sex crime. This kind of thing just doesn't happen that often. I think we are BEFUDDLED that there WAS NOT A SEXUAL ASPECT.

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    Test.

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    Quote Originally Posted by puffster View Post
    All that really remains for me is whether or not she was sexually assalted, or if there was even an attempt at sexual contact. My feeling is no. Which would mean this is simpler than we all can believe: he got angry and killed her over an argument, at least on the surface, about work. I think it's hard for us to put our arms around this. If there was evidence of sexual assault we would all be familiar with it. It seems to me that whenever a guy kills a woman, the vast majority of the time, it turns out to be preceded by a sex crime. This kind of thing just doesn't happen that often. I think we are BEFUDDLED that there WAS NOT A SEXUAL ASPECT.
    Like you, my feeling is no too but I'm not having a hard time coming to grips with the "simplicity" of it-I've seen or heard of this kind of rage before and especially added the entire set of circumstances surrounding this case, plus he probably also being misogynistic. Still it is a set of complex factors interacting- so not a "simple" thing but clear cut yes I think so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Unconvinced View Post
    Test.

    Welcome Unconvinced

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    Quote Originally Posted by JL50ish View Post
    According to the synagogue...Annie had not converted. She was studying the religion (likely at the behest of fiance's parents). However, since she would not have converted prior to her wedding, it could be construed that she was going thru the "motions to learn about the religion and be open to conversion - if moved to do so" to silence her in-laws until the wedding was past. I say this because as someone who is very close to the Vietnamese Catholic community, it is very unlikely that such a person would actually go thru the conversion. Vietnamese CAtholics are very strong in their faith because their people have had such tremendous martyrs for the faith...

    Annie's family had a Catholic memorial service for her yesterday. Technically, the fiance has no right to go thru with his memorial service or decide her burial since he is not "next of kin." Sure, he can have some kind of service for him and his family, but he can't require that her body/coffin be there. Her parents will decide her final funeral and burial.

    But, back to topic....
    Thanks, L50ish for your temperate post. I don't know if it's fair to hypothesize that Annie would not complete conversion; she was getting married in a synagogue, something not all Catholic brides would do. They were not also having a Catholic wedding, which I have known to be done. I'm not a Jew (or, for that matter, a Catholic), but I have a few non-Jewish friends who gone through the process (which often isn't completed until after marriage) and, from their descriptions, the process seems more complicated than other "crossovers." One would expect that the parents would hold a Catholic memorial for her; this is their faith. The synagogue will apparently host a memorial service too.

    You are certainly right about Vietnamese Catholics suffering greatly for their religion.

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    And we think we're going to figure out the motive...

    NEW HAVEN, Conn. – A Connecticut police chief says authorities may never know the motive for the killing of a Yale University graduate student whose body was found hidden behind a wall.
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090918/ap_on_re_us/us_yale_killing_195

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    Quote Originally Posted by puffster View Post
    All that really remains for me is whether or not she was sexually assalted, or if there was even an attempt at sexual contact. My feeling is no. Which would mean this is simpler than we all can believe: he got angry and killed her over an argument, at least on the surface, about work. I think it's hard for us to put our arms around this. If there was evidence of sexual assault we would all be familiar with it. It seems to me that whenever a guy kills a woman, the vast majority of the time, it turns out to be preceded by a sex crime. This kind of thing just doesn't happen that often. I think we are BEFUDDLED that there WAS NOT A SEXUAL ASPECT.
    I know...seems crazy, huh? Still, though, his statement doesn't say she wasn't sexually assaulted - he only says they never had a romantic affair. For some reason, I keep thinking it was over a colony of mice/pregnant mice and how dirty their habitat was. If it was very dirty, the ammonia would be off the hook I would think, and make them more prone to disease and or death, etc. ... especially when being "test" mice / engineered mice.

  38. #22
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    Please leave the forensic astrology in the forensic astrology forum.
    This is not the place for that discussion nor is it the place to discuss forensic astrologers themselves.

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    With all due respect, I seriously can't see how Annie wouldn't have gone through with her conversion to Judaism. Everything about her pattern in life is worked through. She starts, she conquers, she finishes. If she starts something, it seems to me as though she finishes it. She sets a goal and conquers it. I believe she set out to convert & was bound & determined to convert. She grew up in America, therefore more than likely was used to Americanized ways. I don't think anything about her Vietnamese heritage regarding Catholicism holds 100% true in her situation. She grew up in California, which is the reason I think this. Still, I understand why it may be hard to fathom she'd consider a conversion, but I find it quite normal considering the fact she was immensely in love with her soon to be husband. Everything that I've learned about Annie shows hard work and dedication. I find it hard to believe she'd work so hard to learn something she knew nothing about and have it all be in vain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey*Girl View Post
    I know...seems crazy, huh? Still, though, his statement doesn't say she wasn't sexually assaulted - he only says they never had a romantic affair. For some reason, I keep thinking it was over a colony of mice/pregnant mice and how dirty their habitat was. If it was very dirty, the ammonia would be off the hook I would think, and make them more prone to disease and or death, etc. ... especially when being "test" mice / engineered mice.
    He, Jersey Girl. I think that the police have said that there were no indications of sexual assault; certainly there are no such charges. I think that you're right: Resentment could have been sparked by recurring problems in the lab: It could have either or both ways: Clark and Le could have been felt that the other was not doing something properly. (I work in an office where an executive assistant, now mercifully gone, actually attempted to have a night-time cleanup crew member suspended or fired for not cleaning her coffee equipment every night to specifications.)

    From observations of several brides-to-be, I would imagine that Annie Le might have had no patience that day for anything that Raymond Clark had to say.

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  44. #25
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    reminder the topic is:
    Possible Murder motives
    The topic is not other posters. Discussing other posters is not ok.
    thank you.

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