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Thread: Possible Murder Motives#2

  1. #26
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    I posted this elsewhere, but it relates to her conversion:

    * Her friends have said in comments on YDN that she was converting. Doesn't sound like something she was dabbling with or doing just to temporarily placate his parents.
    * There are hints that her family was not pleased with the marriage. Her uncle is quoted in the YDN article "Ten hour days and still smiling" as saying "she seemed hell-bent on getting married."
    * Yale's police called in the FBI because they felt there was a chance of inter-state abduction because her family wasn't pleased about the wedding and they theorized it might have been an abduction by a member of her family (this was a side-comment in one of the articles I read today, but I can't remember which one, unfortunately... will edit with link when I refind it). I had been wondering on what grounds they had called in the FBI. That also explains why the FBI bowed out when it ceased to be a missing person case.

    All that said, I don't think her conversion/non-conversion or her family's feelings about same are related to her murder, but people here seem interested, so...

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  3. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skigirl View Post
    snipped
    All that said, I don't think her conversion/non-conversion or her family's feelings about same are related to her murder snipped .
    fully agree

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  5. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skigirl View Post
    I posted this elsewhere, but it relates to her conversion:

    * Her friends have said in comments on YDN that she was converting. Doesn't sound like something she was dabbling with or doing just to temporarily placate his parents.
    * There are hints that her family was not pleased with the marriage. Her uncle is quoted in the YDN article "Ten hour days and still smiling" as saying "she seemed hell-bent on getting married."
    * Yale's police called in the FBI because they felt there was a chance of inter-state abduction because her family wasn't pleased about the wedding and they theorized it might have been an abduction by a member of her family (this was a side-comment in one of the articles I read today, but I can't remember which one, unfortunately... will edit with link when I refind it). I had been wondering on what grounds they had called in the FBI. That also explains why the FBI bowed out when it ceased to be a missing person case.

    All that said, I don't think her conversion/non-conversion or her family's feelings about same are related to her murder, but people here seem interested, so...
    Quote Originally Posted by Waddles View Post
    fully agree
    Ditto!

  6. #29
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    Thanks to all who responded to my post on the earlier thread! I read the first ones, then was gone for the day, so still want to go back over the subsequent pages there.

    Couple of thoughts:

    I expect Annie was impatient with much that was going on at Yale that day as she was planning on leaving for her wedding soon and her thoughts were undoubtedly on the future. One thing she probably felt she didn't need was an unexpected, unscheduled trip to the animal facility; she may have thought she had everything wrapped up there to be taken care of during her absence. But she was so dutiful and responsible that she went there at the requested time. Very sad, indeed.

    I would also like to add that these mice in question were not field mice or mice that might be found in the cellar/basement of a home. Yale had a lot invested in these mice -- in terms of protocols, treatments, medicines, investigators. I expect that the mice had to be analyzed (perhaps dissected) at certain times to determine if these protocols, medicines, treatments, etc., were having their desired effect. Given that, it could be construed as demeaning to say that Raymond Clark "cleaned mice cages" for a living. Not to defend what he is accused of doing to Annie, in any way. But just to encourage a thought or two about the language used in reference to his job which, after all, he had held for four years.

    MOO.

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  8. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by JL50ish View Post
    Another angle...

    She's getting married very soon....the wedding is going to be a very expensive affair...his wedding is a long way away and won't be nearly as nice...his fiancee works there, too...perhaps she's heard about Annie's plans and is very jealous of Annie's wedding, Annie's future career, and Annie's fiance's future career....so, she continues to bad mouth Annie to anyone and everyone (hence the bad rumors about Annie)....perhaps she even sabotages Annie on occasions. It wouldn't surprise me since she may have suspected that her fiance thought that Annie was cute or a "good catch" or whatever.

    Also...all of Clark's fiancee's talk about "how nice Annie's wedding is going to be" would be annoying the heck out of him...making him feel more inadequate and cheated out what he thinks should be his, too.

    Hmmm...I like this thought angle. I think this murder still boils down to power and rage as many have us have been speculating, but I think it is possible that the jealousy issue, which you're introducing, could partly be the fuel.

    We have to remember that JH may have known (or known of) Annie, too. Also she had previously ranted about who Ray doesn't like in the YARC. So there was possibly a lot of cross-talk about work stuff between JH and RC (and the other fam members) at home, and perhaps that included Annie who is more educated, having this dream wedding, etc.... all this stuff that sets Annie apart (higher) than RC and his fam.

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  10. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skigirl View Post
    I posted this elsewhere, but it relates to her conversion:

    * Her friends have said in comments on YDN that she was converting. Doesn't sound like something she was dabbling with or doing just to temporarily placate his parents.
    * There are hints that her family was not pleased with the marriage. Her uncle is quoted in the YDN article "Ten hour days and still smiling" as saying "she seemed hell-bent on getting married."
    * Yale's police called in the FBI because they felt there was a chance of inter-state abduction because her family wasn't pleased about the wedding and they theorized it might have been an abduction by a member of her family (this was a side-comment in one of the articles I read today, but I can't remember which one, unfortunately... will edit with link when I refind it). I had been wondering on what grounds they had called in the FBI. That also explains why the FBI bowed out when it ceased to be a missing person case.

    All that said, I don't think her conversion/non-conversion or her family's feelings about same are related to her murder, but people here seem interested, so...
    Re: the FBI (see bolded). Really? I thought they were still involved? One of the news reports said they were at the arrest scene, and I remember them being at the post-arrest conference.
    Last edited by MWright; 09-18-2009 at 07:32 PM. Reason: clarity

  11. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by MWright View Post
    Re: the FBI (see bolded). Really? I thought they were still involved? One of the news reports said they were at the arrest scene, and I remember them being at the post-arrest conference.
    No - right after her body was found, it was announced that the New Haven Police were taking over the investigation in its entirety because they had jurisdiction.

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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by MWright View Post
    We have to remember that JH may have known (or known of) Annie, too. Also she had previously ranted about who Ray doesn't like in the YARC. So there was possibly a lot of cross-talk about work stuff between JH and RC (and the other fam members) at home, and perhaps that included Annie who is more educated, having this dream wedding, etc.... all this stuff that sets Annie apart (higher) than RC and his fam.
    Her department head, Joseph Schlessinger, was quoted in the YDN as saying she was always talking about the wedding. Those of us who've worked with brides-to-be can probably relate. I've worked with women who were about to get married, and yes, as the day gets closer, they are pretty much single-minded about the big day. And we, their co-workers, cut them slack because we know how it is.

    http://www.yaledailynews.com/news/un...still-smiling/

    If JH and RC, who are the same age as Le, were having to scrimp and save for a not-as-lavish wedding more than a year away, there could have been some resentment, particularly if she talked about it all the time, as brides-to-be commonly do. People who are already envious often can't see past that to realize it's just because she's excited about her wedding. They may see it as the bride rubbing it in that she has something they don't.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sola.N View Post
    Her department head, Joseph Schlessinger, was quoted in the YDN as saying she was always talking about the wedding. Those of us who've worked with brides-to-be can probably relate. I've worked with women who were about to get married, and yes, as the day gets closer, they are pretty much single-minded about the big day. And we, their co-workers, cut them slack because we know how it is.

    http://www.yaledailynews.com/news/un...still-smiling/

    If JH and RC, who are the same age as Le, were having to scrimp and save for a not-as-lavish wedding more than a year away, there could have been some resentment, particularly if she talked about it all the time, as brides-to-be commonly do. People who are already envious often can't see past that to realize it's just because she's excited about her wedding. They may see it as the bride rubbing it in that she has something they don't.

    The thing is, I'm sure the people in her lab knew all about it, but I really think it's unlikely she'd be talking about it inside the animal facility.
    Character is destiny

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  16. #35
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    Another Thought

    Perhaps Ray Clark's girlfriend/"fiancee" told him she wouldnt move in with him unless/until they were "engaged," so he decided to get "engaged" to her with a wedding date years in the future. The rent on an apartment is surely more manageable if two people are sharing it! Just an idea....

    MOO.

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  18. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skigirl View Post
    I posted this elsewhere, but it relates to her conversion:

    * Her friends have said in comments on YDN that she was converting. Doesn't sound like something she was dabbling with or doing just to temporarily placate his parents.
    * There are hints that her family was not pleased with the marriage. Her uncle is quoted in the YDN article "Ten hour days and still smiling" as saying "she seemed hell-bent on getting married."
    * Yale's police called in the FBI because they felt there was a chance of inter-state abduction because her family wasn't pleased about the wedding and they theorized it might have been an abduction by a member of her family (this was a side-comment in one of the articles I read today, but I can't remember which one, unfortunately... will edit with link when I refind it). I had been wondering on what grounds they had called in the FBI. That also explains why the FBI bowed out when it ceased to be a missing person case.

    All that said, I don't think her conversion/non-conversion or her family's feelings about same are related to her murder, but people here seem interested, so...
    I agree it's not related to her murder. There is a thread here for the personal side of Annie. I think that that information would be wonderful to post and discuss there because it gives us a rich full picture of who this victim was...in all her glory. RIP Annie.
    "Three things in human life are important: The first is to be kind; the second is to be kind; and the third is to be kind." ~ Henry James

  19. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Labrat View Post
    The thing is, I'm sure the people in her lab knew all about it, but I really think it's unlikely she'd be talking about it inside the animal facility.
    Is it common for a grad student to have the same one or two animal techs assigned to her project, or would pretty much anyone on the animal tech staff handle her particular mice? I'm wondering if RC was her designated animal tech, in which case she'd have more reason to talk to him. And if she had to make arrangements with someone about what to do with her mice when she was out of town, would it be just one tech or their supervisor or another grad student?

  20. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey*Girl View Post
    I know...seems crazy, huh? Still, though, his statement doesn't say she wasn't sexually assaulted - he only says they never had a romantic affair. For some reason, I keep thinking it was over a colony of mice/pregnant mice and how dirty their habitat was. If it was very dirty, the ammonia would be off the hook I would think, and make them more prone to disease and or death, etc. ... especially when being "test" mice / engineered mice.
    Extremely dirty cages become very humid inside, the bedding gets wet and the food molds. It is not a pretty sight.

    Pups (baby mice) will die of hypothermia if the cage floods. If a cage is without food or water for too long, mice will cannibilize any pups in the cage.

    Mice will sometimes fight, especially the males and they can wound each other very badly.

    If you do not wean a litter at the correct time, within a week or two all the females will be pregnant. If you are really negligent, you could end up with a LOT of mice in one cage.

    Husbandry SOP is 5 adult mice per cage, or one mating pair plus litter per cage. If you do harem mating, you have to take the pregnant females out of the cage before they give birth, because you can't have multiple litters in one cage.

    It is sometimes very difficult for the animal techs, because ultimately they are responsible for the mice in the room, but the mice belong to the PI, not the technician, so there can be some tension there.

    Good technicians really do have a hard time if students and techs are sloppy in the room. Alternately, it can be maddening to a PI to be assigned a careless animal tech.

    I would suspect it was not a regular cage or a food/water issue because he would be responsible for that. It was more likley something to do with specially flagged cages or overcrowding since she would be responsible for that. Animal techs are not expected to do any weaning, that's the responsibility of the lab.
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  22. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Track292008 View Post
    Perhaps Ray Clark's girlfriend/"fiancee" told him she wouldnt move in with him unless/until they were "engaged," so he decided to get "engaged" to her with a wedding date years in the future. The rent on an apartment is surely more manageable if two people are sharing it! Just an idea....

    MOO.
    Could be. Or even to appease her parents or his parents.

  23. #40
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    Forgive me if this question has been asked before and I missed it.

    Would Clark keep any kinds of records to show if Le's mice overpopulated, or a similar problem that would hamper Clark doing his job?

    My thought is, Le would not have been slack -- she had a flawless reputation in her research.

    But since her wedding was only a week away, it seems possible her mice got put on the back burner. Clark was trying to keep his "domain" under control, and Le was "making a mess." Possible?
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  25. #41
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    Thank you Labrat...you are invaluable!

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  27. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Labrat View Post
    Extremely dirty cages become very humid inside, the bedding gets wet and the food molds. It is not a pretty sight.

    Pups (baby mice) will die of hypothermia if the cage floods. If a cage is without food or water for too long, mice will cannibilize any pups in the cage.

    Mice will sometimes fight, especially the males and they can wound each other very badly.

    If you do not wean a litter at the correct time, within a week or two all the females will be pregnant. If you are really negligent, you could end up with a LOT of mice in one cage.

    Husbandry SOP is 5 adult mice per cage, or one mating pair plus litter per cage. If you do harem mating, you have to take the pregnant females out of the cage before they give birth, because you can't have multiple litters in one cage.

    It is sometimes very difficult for the animal techs, because ultimately they are responsible for the mice in the room, but the mice belong to the PI, not the technician, so there can be some tension there.

    Good technicians really do have a hard time if students and techs are sloppy in the room. Alternately, it can be maddening to a PI to be assigned a careless animal tech.

    I would suspect it was not a regular cage or a food/water issue because he would be responsible for that. It was more likley something to do with specially flagged cages or overcrowding since she would be responsible for that. Animal techs are not expected to do any weaning, that's the responsibility of the lab.
    That's exactly what I think. Now, could you kindly explain what happens when the mice are overcrowded and the level of ammonia rises?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey*Girl View Post
    Thank you Labrat...you are invaluable!
    Ain't that the truth! There are several people contributing to these threads who have been a real goldmine of information about how labs work.

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  30. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sola.N View Post
    Ain't that the truth! There are several people contributing to these threads who have been a real goldmine of information about how labs work.
    Yep! Tons of intelligent info has been added to these threads thanks to the multitude of scientists, cops, lawyers, and psychiatrists. That's a fact, Jack!

  31. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Track292008 View Post
    Thanks to all who responded to my post on the earlier thread! I read the first ones, then was gone for the day, so still want to go back over the subsequent pages there.

    Couple of thoughts:

    I expect Annie was impatient with much that was going on at Yale that day as she was planning on leaving for her wedding soon and her thoughts were undoubtedly on the future. One thing she probably felt she didn't need was an unexpected, unscheduled trip to the animal facility; she may have thought she had everything wrapped up there to be taken care of during her absence. But she was so dutiful and responsible that she went there at the requested time. Very sad, indeed.

    I would also like to add that these mice in question were not field mice or mice that might be found in the cellar/basement of a home. Yale had a lot invested in these mice -- in terms of protocols, treatments, medicines, investigators. I expect that the mice had to be analyzed (perhaps dissected) at certain times to determine if these protocols, medicines, treatments, etc., were having their desired effect. Given that, it could be construed as demeaning to say that Raymond Clark "cleaned mice cages" for a living. Not to defend what he is accused of doing to Annie, in any way. But just to encourage a thought or two about the language used in reference to his job which, after all, he had held for four years.

    MOO.
    He wouldn't be analyzing the mice to see if treatments had effects. That is the job of people like Annie. His job was to take care of the mice, feed them and clean their cages.

  32. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sola.N View Post
    Is it common for a grad student to have the same one or two animal techs assigned to her project, or would pretty much anyone on the animal tech staff handle her particular mice? I'm wondering if RC was her designated animal tech, in which case she'd have more reason to talk to him. And if she had to make arrangements with someone about what to do with her mice when she was out of town, would it be just one tech or their supervisor or another grad student?
    The animal tech would be assigned to the room, not her project specifically. Many times there are multiple PIs with animals in a single room, sometimes just one. I do not share my mouse rooms, but a large room could have 10 or more PI's mice in it. An extremely large room might have 2 animal techs.

    He was the tech in her room, but it is entirely possible they had very little contact except when there was a problem.
    If the tech is working in my room I don't go in- we'd just get in each other's way. She does the AM room checks and then has other duties in the rest of the facility- transports, autoclaving, etc. The day she does change out, I stay out of the mouse room all day. It's full of dirty cages going out, clean cages going in, etc. If I absolutely have to- I run in during her lunch break.

    There are two things going on with research mice. One is husbandry. This is the responsibility of the animal room tech. It includes changing cages, food and water, keeping adequate supplies in the room, sanitizing, flagging sick or injured mice, housing new mouse deliveries, etc. This happens automatically 24/7/365. She would not make arrangements of any sort with the animal room tech for this.

    The second thing is her research project itself. This would be breeding to keep the colony going, any genotyping needed, any experiments, medicated water or special diets. This is not the responsibility of the animal room technician. If anything like this needed to be done while she was away, it would be someone from her research lab who would do this.

    Animal room techs handle the mice only in their assigned room- they will not go into another room. Some facilities rotate techs so that they have a different room every week. In others the tech can have the same room for a long time.
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  34. #47
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    Guess what Labrat, Yale offers this service as part of their Rodent Services department! They handle the weaning, colonization and everything! It's done as a service to assist investigators and researchers! Holy cow! Could I have been on the right track all along?

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  36. #48
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    Labrat, look:

    http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache:...&ct=clnk&gl=us

    Quote
    The Rodent Service provides comprehensive breeding and colony management services to assist investigators with rodent-based research. The benefits are as follows:
    Reduces time and costs for colony management
    Provides complete colony records including documentation of lineage
    Ensures regulatory compliance
    The following services are available at an hourly rate of $77. Total breeding colony management packages or individual services are provided. Individual consultation is provided at no charge.

    Weekly (minimum) monitoring of breeding pairs
    Twice weekly (minimum) monitoring of harem breeding pairs
    Daily monitoring of pregnant females and females with litters
    Separation of pregnant females (harem pens)
    Weaning
    Setup and retirement of breeders
    Timed matings
    Identification of individual animals
    Record keeping and monthly reports
    Biopsy for DNA analysis
    Euthanasia
    The Rodent Service can also provide technical assistance with chronic drug administration, sample collection, minor surgical procedures and other experimental procedures in rodents.
    Unquote

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  38. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey*Girl View Post
    That's exactly what I think. Now, could you kindly explain what happens when the mice are overcrowded and the level of ammonia rises?
    It stinks to high heaven for one- it means there are so many mice in the cage the bedding becomes urine soaked- the humidity gets so high that you can see water on the sides of the cage, the mice all have wet fur and will stand up on their hind legs trying to stay dry. The air quality will be bad. Research mice are usually kept in a cage that looks like a plastic shoebox. It has a wire top that holds the food and water bottle, unless there's an automatic watering system. Then there is a filter top over the cage to keep any possible pathogens from getting into the cage. The filter top will keep that humidity inside the cage. I think the temperature can rise, too. Mice need to be kept at a certain humidity and temperature and that cage is not it.
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  40. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBean View Post
    Please leave the forensic astrology in the forensic astrology forum.
    This is not the place for that discussion nor is it the place to discuss forensic astrologers themselves.
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