1108 users online (232 members and 876 guests)  


The Killing Season - Websleuths

Websleuths News


Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 63
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    New York, NY
    Posts
    1,185

    Premeditation?

    Do we think this was a premeditated murder? Did RC plan to kill Annie when he allegedly texted her that morning?


    I'm not sure what I think. The fact that he allegedly asked her to come to the lab could be premeditation, he was setting it up.

    But I am leaning towards NOT premeditation because it seems to me he panicked after it happened. I keep wondering- why didn't he use Annie's key-card to move through rooms, so LE would think she left the building (and wouldn't focus in on the lab). If he planned this out, wouldn't he have tried to make it look like they left the building at different times?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    13
    i think "premeditation" and "planned" are 2 different concepts (at least legally).

    I don't think he planned this.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    New York, NY
    Posts
    1,185
    Quote Originally Posted by agent_scully View Post
    i think "premeditation" and "planned" are 2 different concepts (at least legally).

    I don't think he planned this.
    You're absolutely right, one can legally "premeditate" in a minute. I think I am asking both questions.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    4,852
    A possible scenario
    Annie was spending 10-13 hours/day in the lab because of upcoming wedding, she was an excited, happy, female, and successful Doctoral student - perhaps the kind Clark can't stand

    Maybe NOT perfect in lab procedures due to the time stress of wedding

    What ever Annie did over the weekend and Monday sent Clark into an uproar

    He ruminated about punishing Annie - maybe couldn't sleep Monday night - fantasized about laying into Annie and murdering her - he arrived at work on Tuesday am, angry

    Tuesday early AM he text Annie to meet at the lab

    Annie grabbed some documentation to show Clark she had not violated protocol in lab - went to Amistad bldg. and swiped in

    Clark confronted Annie - she misread his anger (pre-occupied), showed him documentation

    I believe Clark had every intention of laying into Annie for weekend or Monday mishaps -

    When meeting with Annie (he was already furious) - he acted on those fantasies

    Just a possible made up scenario...maybe in his fantasies he had a relationship with Annie, and when she unintentionally dismissed him - he murdered her (a reenactment of his fantasy)
    I call this planned and rehearsed - but in his fantasies. Annie wasn't picked out in random; Clark knew Annie...and his topic...and had rehearsed. pre-meditated? Planned? imho
    Last edited by eyes4crime; 09-18-2009 at 06:55 PM.
    Please think long and hard before calling a child a 'run-a-way':
    You might be giving a 'perk' to the 'perp'.


    Democracy requires the occasional necessity of deferring to the opinions of other people. (Winston Churchill)

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    57
    Quote Originally Posted by agent_scully View Post
    i think "premeditation" and "planned" are 2 different concepts (at least legally).

    I don't think he planned this.
    I agree...but...what moved him to the point of murder...that is such a huge leap from just being angry over some lab protocols.

    I realize that he had that possible rape issue back in high school, but how likely is it that a person with that kind of inner violence can go that many years without more violence. Something more is going to come out.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    3,263
    Hasn't anyone here ever been absolutely enraged by a co-worker before? Whatever you're doing may seem small to someone else, but it's your life and it's big to you. If someone starts to get under your skin, in small or big ways, it's hard to keep from getting more and more annoyed, even when they do little things. I know the one time I lost my temper with a co-worker, over ten years ago, I was really out of control. Fortunately, I'm not prone to violence, so for me, being out of control means I shook and raised my voice and slammed a door, but I can remember feeling like the entire world had gone away and it was just me and this other grad student, yelling at one another over disk space on the lab workstation. It was important to both of our research, but in the scheme of things, it was totally idiotic for us to be yelling about it. I was stressed, he was stressed, I saw him as being a hog of limited resources, he saw me as being in the way of his research, we got on each others' nerves, and we both simultaneously snapped. I guess that's why I don't find it impossible to believe that the confrontation that lead to her strangling was just over things in the lab.

    Not that that makes RC any less nuts. Strangling someone is nuts.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    111
    The part that gets me is that he strangled her to death. That's not a flash of anger, but sustained rage, sadism, and determination in killing someone off--slowly. He most likely could have killed her quickly, bludgeoning her to death, but he chose strangulation. So I don't think he all of a sudden decided to kill her but has been thinking about killing her for a while, in general, and then panicked after he finally did it.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    28
    Quote Originally Posted by Stephens View Post
    The part that gets me is that he strangled her to death. That's not a flash of anger, but sustained rage, sadism, and determination in killing someone off--slowly. He most likely could have killed her quickly, bludgeoning her to death, but he chose strangulation. So I don't think he all of a sudden decided to kill her but has been thinking about killing her for a while, in general, and then panicked after he finally did it.
    no. bludgeoning is messy in the extreme and difficult. Strangulating is simple quick and not inherently sadistic. a strong enough assailant renders the victim unconscious within a couple of seconds.

    a 180 lb man strangling a 90 lb woman does the following:
    1) renders the victim unconscious within 5 to 8 seconds by ending blood flow to brain
    2) instantaneously damages windpipe so the unconscious victim will succumb to traumatic asphyxia without medical intervention within minutes (tracheotomy)

    I don't know where you pull "sustained sadism" out of something that takes five seconds and is the absolute cleanest method of killing someone weaker

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    28
    Quote Originally Posted by eyes4crime View Post
    A possible scenario
    Annie was spending 10-13 hours/day in the lab because of upcoming wedding, she was an excited, happy, female, and successful Doctoral student - perhaps the kind Clark can't stand
    Perhaps she was an annoying self centered person who was conflicted about being married (mood swings before marriage are the norm) who broke all the procedural rules and made his charged job harder.

    Not to speak ill of the dead, or excuse the killing at all, but you are ascribing all kinds of states of mind to the victim and the killer that are not proven.

    I think the way the crime was committed makes it almost certain that it was unpremeditated.

    Perhaps he got to work on Tuesday finding that she had screwed something up created some kind of problem for him, he sends her a text saying why did you do this, or dome in so we can discuss proper procedures, and perhaps she arrived and dismissed his concerns or was condescending and he went berserk.

    When someone dies EVERYONE says they are nice, for all we know she was very hard to get along with or the nicest person on earth. we simply don't know.

    also random has nothing to do with premediation. we have zero evidence of premeditation on this one so fat and all the indications point to non premeditation. more likely scenario, she did something worn and he was sticker. he called her in to tell her not to do it again. they were both in bad moods they argued and were condescending to each other. she stuck him and he struck her or visa versa, he grabbed her throat and with seconds had intentionally (second degree) or accidentally (third degree) killed her.

    this guy is going to plead on second degree and it will be accepted, I give that 99% odds unless we see evidence (not speculation) of him voicing hatred of this woman to witnesses or in wrign from before the crime.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    197
    I'm with those who think that the way the crime was committed made it seem unplanned to me. That is, I don't think he woke up that morning thinking: "Today is the day I will lure Annie Le to the lab and murder her." It doesn't appear as if there was any planning done at all, no idea of what to do with the body, no thought as to a better place to commit the crime, no pre-establishing of an alibi, etc.

    However, from everything I've heard about strangulation there was certainly time in there to stop the murder. It's not like a one-second 'pull the trigger and now the person is dead and no taking it back' moment. Or giving someone a shove off a cliff, and once that two-second act is done, they're done. He started violence against her, and then at some point early on I think he consciously decided (perhaps not in a clear state of mind, but a decision was nonetheless made) to continue the act to it murderous conclusion. So for those few minutes, yes, he had premeditated the tragic conclusion.


  11. #11
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    new england
    Posts
    1,601

    legal premeditation

    While NOT a "legal beagle", I've spent more minutes of my life in the company of them (both pros and def) and the convoluted logic of the law has rubbed off....but just a bit! The legal premeditation can occur within seconds, think: continuing the action of applying pressure vs stopping! while pre-planning a crime can take days (and some how the perps still make boo boos!).

    IMHO, this crime meets the legal definition of premeditation and could aptly be demonstrated by the simple actions of taking a stopwatch and showing just how L O N G it takes to strangle another human being to DEATH!

    I've done such demonstrations in court (yeah, it's dramatic but heck, sometimes show and tell is the best type of education); showing the effectiveness of occluding Simultaneously both major arteries, the sustained & significant! pressure needed to bring about unconsciousness and death. More likely is the scenario that RC applied pressure to the jugular veins, prolonged and constant, perhaps applying stronger force as she struggled then gradually fell unconscious, at which point he probably continued to apply pressure but now also against her trachea.

    Any way one cuts it: NOT STOPPING HIS ACTIONS removes this from assault and battery to homicide, premeditated

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    518
    Quote Originally Posted by joypath View Post
    IMHO, this crime meets the legal definition of premeditation and could aptly be demonstrated by the simple actions of taking a stopwatch and showing just how L O N G it takes to strangle another human being to DEATH!

    I've done such demonstrations in court (yeah, it's dramatic but heck, sometimes show and tell is the best type of education); showing the effectiveness of occluding Simultaneously both major arteries, the sustained & significant! pressure needed to bring about unconsciousness and death.
    (bolded by me)....
    I can not visualize this. Did you do a strangling demo on a person? or a dummy?

    You said you are not a lawyer...are you a strangulation expert??

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    518
    Clark may not have had a steller career, but he was not stupid:

    According to CNN: "Clark was an honor student at Branford High School in suburban New Haven"

    http://edition.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/09...clark.profile/

    Had he thought the murder through, I am certain he would have done it differently than he did. He would not have killed her in a place that was so secure, where his every movement was traced by swipe cards and video cameras. Where it was impossible to effectively hide the body. He would not have sent her emails and text messages. He would have found a way not to leave his DNA all over her (gloves, hair net,etc).

    It may have been premeditated in the legal sense (he strangled her and had time to stop but did not), but not in the practical sense. And it certainly was not planned. If he had planned it, he would have done a better job covering his tracks.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Penn's woods
    Posts
    17,195
    Quote Originally Posted by Gene View Post
    Clark may not have had a steller career, but he was not stupid:

    According to CNN: "Clark was an honor student at Branford High School in suburban New Haven"

    http://edition.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/09...clark.profile/

    Had he thought the murder through, I am certain he would have done it differently than he did. He would not have killed her in a place that was so secure, where his every movement was traced by swipe cards and video cameras. Where it was impossible to effectively hide the body. He would not have sent her emails and text messages. He would have found a way not to leave his DNA all over her (gloves, hair net,etc).

    It may have been premeditated in the legal sense (he strangled her and had time to stop but did not), but not in the practical sense. And it certainly was not planned. If he had planned it, he would have done a better job covering his tracks.
    IMHO just from what I've seen so far revealed in this case. My opinon is subject to change as facts that can be verified by LE come out...

    I agree with your statement I bolded. The prosection could try to prove premeditation in the legal sense...yes.

    And the defense could use choice of place in which he murdered Annie, his actions immediately after her murder to include actually hiding her body in the same bldg as she was murdered...to show it wasn't a premeditated murder. JMHO.

    This will be interesting to see how this trial goes.

    ETA: Since we haven't seen the actual autopsy report and we haven't had LE or the ME make statments to the media, we have no clue as to how she died and what injuries she sustained. That impedes us a lot IMHO.
    Last edited by Kat; 09-19-2009 at 04:56 PM. Reason: ETA:
    "Three things in human life are important: The first is to be kind; the second is to be kind; and the third is to be kind." ~ Henry James

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    405
    There is so much media on this that I am not sure what is fact and what is not. But it regards to what I have read:

    If he hid bloody clothes above the ceiling tiles and they have him leaving work with different clothes it makes me think...do you always take a different set of clothes to work with you on a normal work day...I don't. Wouldn't this prove premeditation?

Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 ... LastLast


Similar Threads

  1. premeditation
    By nursebeeme in forum Travis Alexander Trial - The State vs. Jodi Arias
    Replies: 259
    Last Post: 05-12-2013, 03:29 AM
  2. Evidence of Premeditation?
    By Sherazhad in forum Kyron Horman
    Replies: 138
    Last Post: 12-03-2010, 08:42 PM
  3. Premeditation
    By wonders in forum Caylee Anthony 2 years old
    Replies: 614
    Last Post: 10-13-2009, 10:32 AM
  4. burke and premeditation
    By ellen13 in forum JonBenet Ramsey
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 10-04-2006, 09:49 AM

Tags for this Thread